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Offlinefireworks_godS
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A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney
    #7677326 - 11/25/07 09:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)



:strokebeard:

Apparently, after that, he was... born again? :shrug:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7677371 - 11/25/07 10:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

he wasn't born again.

he was given stock.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: afoaf]
    #7678830 - 11/25/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well hot damn


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: andrewss]
    #7680246 - 11/25/07 11:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Cheney has clearly exerted his influence to propagate our presence and situation in Iraq. None of the circumstances he described then had changed by the time we began this. He was involved, acutely aware of precisely what this meant. He's clearly intelligent and very perceptive of the nature of reality. He said the same thing then that Ron Paul and Al Gore were saying when we started pushing our way into Iraq. They all knew the truth, so, clearly, Cheney has a motivation that, he feels, is worth the consequences. Clearly, it had nothing to do with terrorism, or liberating people in the name of democracy.

None of this is new, and its always been obvious, but seeing him say that capitalizes on the sad political state that has arisen in this country from the apathy of American citizens. Anyone who becomes involved with a minimal amount of investment can find valuable information about politicans - what they have said, what they have done, who they represent. It has only taken a small amount of individuals who have become concerned and have begun actively participating by researching and seeking information and becoming involved by making that information accessible to others to make a huge difference in the political climate of this presidental election - i.e. Ron Paul.

The age of the Internet is only in its infancy, and I think we can remain confident that this trend will only continue, where people begin to interact with the information exchange instead of having it broadcast to them. Society is limited by the nature of its method of idea-exchange, its media, and society is finally showing evidence of this transformation into an age wherein information is exchanged in a truly interconnected, involved way, where it truly counts - how we represent ourselves in determining the course for the management of society.

It is disturbing to see a man who is clearly aware of the nature of reality to use his abilities and position for his own personal gain, but it is refreshing and reassuring that the incentive for this to happen will increasingly not exist any more. :yesnod:

Let's look at what Ron Paul was saying before it started... :sherlock: It is two different occasions, and the first one is only one minute, so I'd at least watch that much. :wink:



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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7680254 - 11/25/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The man is a classic sociopath.

The Bush administration was doomed the moment they brought him on board.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zorbman]
    #7681543 - 11/26/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The Bush Administration has been the architect of great economic progress as well as a tremendously successful example of the good that can be accomplished by eradicating thugs and enforcing the rule of law and the sanctity of contracts. There, blow your heads up over that one.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7681567 - 11/26/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

1994...?


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7681783 - 11/26/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Bush Administration has been the architect of great economic progress as well as a tremendously successful example of the good that can be accomplished by eradicating thugs and enforcing the rule of law and the sanctity of contracts.  There, blow your heads up over that one.




I guess that's why their approval ratings are swirling the toilet. :rolleyes:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zorbman]
    #7681807 - 11/26/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I suspect that that particular bit of irrelevance is quite the product of the MSM. It is nonetheless a good bit higher than Congress's.

Since when do you think that the people is anything but a brainwashed ass anyway?


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7681823 - 11/26/07 01:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It is nonetheless a good bit higher than Congress's.




That's not saying much.

I think even Lucifer's approval ratings are higher at this point.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7681841 - 11/26/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Bush Administration has been the architect of great economic progress as well as a tremendously successful example of the good that can be accomplished by eradicating thugs and enforcing the rule of law and the sanctity of contracts. There, blow your heads up over that one.



Next week in zappaworld™: Not a single child left behind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: Silversoul]
    #7681907 - 11/26/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

Next week in zappaworld™: Not a single child left behind.




MMMMM babies, the other white meat.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7682086 - 11/26/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Bush Administration has been the architect of great economic progress




Not really. Where has the dollar been heading since the Iraqi War? Where has the price of oil been heading since the Iraqi War? :strokebeard:

If we are in more debt now than when the Bush administration began, then there is no "economic progress".

Quote:


...as well as a tremendously successful example of the good that can be accomplished by eradicating thugs and enforcing the rule of law and the sanctity of contracts.  There, blow your heads up over that one.




:lol:

Which metric do you determine this with, exactly? Clearly nothing based in reality. The political and global climate today has been ravaged by the baseless, pre-emptive war in Iraq. Stop living in a fantasy world of damaging the name and well-being of the United States by thinking that traveling across the world and smiting "terrorists" is beneficial to this country's interests or that of humanity itself. It isn't. Stop thinking that we have the ability to liberate and build nations on the other side of the planet, let alone that it is our responsibility. We have a responsibility, first and foremost, to the well-being of the people of this country, and that well-being has been sorely neglected. Its no one's fault but the people of this country, but now they are beginning to realize what needs to be done.

Wake up - Bush does not represent the United States of America or its people, this country's interests, the interests of human beings as a whole, or the ideals and framework with which this country was founded. Most Americans have already realized that much.


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If I should die this very moment
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7682119 - 11/26/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Bush Administration has been the architect of great economic progress




Not really. Where has the dollar been heading since the Iraqi War? Where has the price of oil been heading since the Iraqi War? :strokebeard:

If we are in more debt now than when the Bush administration began, then there is no "economic progress".




We have been in debt for almost my entire life, one half century.  I'd like to say he cut taxes but he didn't, tax revenue is at an all time high.  The price of oil has been going in the same direction it always has, overall.  Isn't that what you want?  You know, to save the planet.  A weak dollar spurs exports.  Since Clinton he has engineered the shortest recovery from recession in memory.  In spite of a fairly substantial external hit.  The economy is kicking it, pal, no matter what the naysayers want you to believe.  Spending on Black Friday was UP.
Quote:



Quote:


...as well as a tremendously successful example of the good that can be accomplished by eradicating thugs and enforcing the rule of law and the sanctity of contracts.  There, blow your heads up over that one.




:lol:

Which metric do you determine this with, exactly? Clearly nothing based in reality. The political and global climate today has been ravaged by the baseless, pre-emptive war in Iraq. Stop living in a fantasy world of damaging the name and well-being of the United States by thinking that traveling across the world and smiting "terrorists" is beneficial to this country's interests or that of humanity itself. It isn't. Stop thinking that we have the ability to liberate and build nations on the other side of the planet, let alone that it is our responsibility. We have a responsibility, first and foremost, to the well-being of the people of this country, and that well-being has been sorely neglected. Its no one's fault but the people of this country, but now they are beginning to realize what needs to be done.

Wake up - Bush does not represent the United States of America or its people, this country's interests, the interests of human beings as a whole, or the ideals and framework with which this country was founded. Most Americans have already realized that much.




Unfortunately for you, he DOES represent the people of America, duly elected.  And I really don't think that you and Pauline Kael have any business thinking you know what America thinks.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7682228 - 11/26/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
We have been in debt for almost my entire life, one half century.




I'm presently in debt as well. I would take on small amounts of debt, and pay it off quickly. Circumstances in my life began to transition and I was less able to pay it off quickly. This compounded the problem, especially as I missed some work and my roommate missed a lot of work. Now I'm in a lot of debt. Fortunately, I've managed to enter into a situation wherein I'm not accumulating more and my ability to perform work, live a preferable lifestyle, and begin working on paying it off. I have to be patient, and it stings, because I'm stuck in a situation that I don't wish to be in because I'm in debt.

When you live beyond your means, you begin to live underneath your means.

Anyways, yes, we have been in debt for half a century. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the ascension of the American empire, through the Cold War and into today. :rolleyes: :smirk:

My point still stands. If we are accumulating more debt, then there is no "economic progress".

Quote:


  I'd like to say he cut taxes but he didn't, tax revenue is at an all time high.




When was Bush most successful and approved? When he began giving taxes back to American citizens. Why did the dollar and economy rise from 2001 to 2002, as you have referred to? :sherlock:

Its a shame he didn't remove the income tax entirely. I'm given to understand that, if we eliminated the revenue from the income tax entirely, the amount the federal government would have to work with would be the same amount the total was in 2000, let alone removing the expenditures of the operation of the IRS from the budget.

Now, what's the main difference between the budget of 2000 and the budget of 2007? :confused:

:hehehe:

Bush would have been a great president if it wasn't for his overreaction to 9/11. Even Ron Paul voted to authorize sending our forces into Afghanistan to destroy the terrorist organization of Osama bin Laden. We had the support of the planet because the cause was just and what we were seeking to accomplish was attainable.

But... then... we kind of just... stopped that altogether.... and went into Iraq instead... for reasons that... had nothing to do with why we were in the Middle East.

It is almost as if, once we were given the opportunity to enjoy this type of presence in the Middle East, the incentive for a new agenda arose, and Cheney reached for it. I'm sure it wasn't hard to get Bush to go for it "I've got a score to settle!" :lol:

Anyways, yeah. Bush. :shrug:

Quote:


  The price of oil has been going in the same direction it always has, overall.




Same direction it always has, overall? :rofl2:

Well, the wave keeps repeating, at least, but all we have to do is ask why we are allowing it to continue echoing like this perpetually.



Around $25 a barrel on 9/11/2001....

Sitting just slightly underneath $100 at the end of 2007.


Don't you ask yourself, why?

Of course, oil has been beyond that point before... Right around the time the graph denotes as IRAN-IRAQ WAR.

:strokebeard:



Honestly, if you were concerned about the economy, I'd think you'd consider the fact that the best thing for the economy is to not see that crest again. Whether or not we do is the question of whether or not America learns its lesson.

You can't have it all ways, my friend. :shrug:

Quote:


  Isn't that what you want?  You know, to save the planet.  A weak dollar spurs exports.




What will The United States of America export? Services? Bureaucracy? :what:

Quote:


  Since Clinton he has engineered the shortest recovery from recession in memory.




And then completely blew it. :yawn:

Quote:


  In spite of a fairly substantial external hit.




Which would be..... ?

Quote:


  The economy is kicking it, pal, no matter what the naysayers want you to believe.




Yes, if you conviently forget about the fact that we are increasingly in debt, and that our foreign policy has clearly brought the price of oil four times higher. Let's all feel-good, its the Roarin' Twenties. :headbang:

Quote:


  Spending on Black Friday was UP.




Don't I know, I was there, facilitating it. Wonder what the profit margin was on all those sales at Wal*Mart? Of course sales increase when you give it away cheaper than ever before. :shocked:

Quote:


Unfortunately for you, he DOES represent the people of America, duly elected.




Winning an election does not mean that the president has carte blanche to act out of any interest and still be able to have it claimed that he represents the people of America, and America's interests. At the least, it could be stated that he poorly, dimly represents America's interests. Kind of like a lawyer that exclaims "I will represent you in court" and shows up hung-over and babbling about nonsense. :shrug:

Quote:


  And I really don't think that you and Pauline Kael have any business thinking you know what America thinks.




Who is Pauline Kael? :shrug:

I'd google her but I'm going to have to guess that she is irrelevant to this discussion between you and me.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7682749 - 11/26/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Too many quotes to chop.

Oil is going up. It's spiking. So what? Speculators having a snit. Feh. What's good for the economy is for the market to set the price. Then domestic oil production becomes feasible. Capisce? The market adapts.

In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods. And services. Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?

Bush didn't blow anything, the economy is kicking it old school and has for several years.

US foreign policy is hardly the cause of the oil increase. Have you ever heard of China? And India? They have just recently joined the 20th century, in case you weren't watching.

Well, you have certainly bought into the never ending "It's good, but.....Bush sucks" of the MSM reportage of any economic news.

Everybody is fully aware that Bush is not the emperor (except anna) but he nonetheless is the pre-eminent representative of the US to the world. Tough shit.

Pauline Kael was a film critic for the NYTimes in the sixties. She was quoted (almost certainly falsely) as stating that she couldn't understand how Nixon got elected since nobody SHE knew voted for him. It bespeaks an intellectual incestuousness and a cloistered idea of just what America is.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7682758 - 11/26/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm so proud to be an American! There's huge amount of oil in Iraq, too.

US, Iraq deal sees long-term US presence

By BEN FELLER, Associated Press Writer
47 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Monday signed a deal setting the foundation for a potential long-term U.S. troop presence in Iraq, with details to be negotiated over matters that have defined the war debate at home — how many U.S. forces will stay in the country, and for how long.

The agreement between Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki confirms that the United States and Iraq will hash out an "enduring" relationship in military, economic and political terms. Details of that relationship will be negotiated in 2008, with a completion goal of July, when the U.S. intends to finish withdrawing the five combat brigades sent in 2007 as part of the troop buildup that has helped curb sectarian violence.

"What U.S. troops are doing, how many troops are required to do that, are bases required, which partners will join them — all these things are on the negotiating table," said Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute, President Bush's adviser on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The proposal underlines how the United States and Iraq are exploring what their relationship might look like once the U.S. significantly draws down its troop presence. It comes as a Democratic Congress — unsuccessfully, so far — prods Bush to withdraw troops faster than he wants.

Bush and al-Maliki signed the new U.S.-Iraq "declaration of principles" during a secure video conference Monday morning.

Al-Maliki, in a televised address, said his government would ask the United Nations to renew the mandate for the multinational force for one final time with its authorization to end in 2008.

The U.S.-Iraq agreement will replace the present U.N. mandate regulating the presence of the U.S.-led forces in Iraq. Al-Maliki said the agreement provides for U.S. support for the "democratic regime in Iraq against domestic and external dangers."

It also would help the Iraqi government thwart any attempt to suspend or repeal a constitution drafted with U.S. help and adopted in a nationwide vote in 2005. That appeared to be a reference to any attempt to remove the government by violence or in a coup.

Al-Maliki said the renewal of the multinational forces' mandate was conditional on the repeal of what he called restrictions on Iraqi sovereignty introduced in 1990 by the U.N. Security Council to punish Iraq for invading neighboring Kuwait.

The new agreement would not signal an end to the U.S. mission here. But it could change the rules under which U.S. soldiers operate and give the Iraqis a greater role in determining their mission.

Two Republican senators said that unless Baghdad makes more political progress by January, the U.S. should consider withdrawing financial aid or political support from al-Maliki.

The warnings, coming from Sens. Lindsey Graham and Saxby Chambliss, were an indication that while GOP patience on the war has increased this fall because of security gains made by the military, it isn't bottomless.

"I do expect them to deliver," Graham, R-S.C., said in a phone interview. "What would happen for me if there's no progress on reconciliation after the first of the year, I would be looking at ways to invest our money into groups that can deliver."

Likewise, Chambliss, R-Ga., suggested lawmakers might even call for al-Maliki's ouster if Baghdad didn't reach agreements on at least some of the major issues seen as key to tamping down sectarian violence.

Two senior Iraqi officials familiar with the issue say Iraq's government will embrace a long-term U.S. troop presence in return for U.S. security guarantees as part of a strategic partnership. The two officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the subject is sensitive, said U.S. military and diplomatic representatives appeared generally favorable, subject to negotiations on the details, which include preferential treatment for American investments.

Preferential treatment for U.S. investors could provide a huge windfall if Iraq can achieve enough stability to exploit its vast oil resources. Such a deal would also enable the United States to maintain leverage against Iranian expansion at a time of growing fears about Tehran's nuclear aspirations.

The framework Bush approved outlines broad principles, such as that both countries will support Iraq's economic institutions, and help its government train Iraqi security forces to provide stability for all Iraqis. Lute said "all major national leaders of the existing Iraqi government" have committed to it.

"The basic message here should be clear: Iraq is increasingly able to stand on its own; that's very good news, but it won't have to stand alone," said Lute, who rarely holds televised briefings.

He said it is too soon to tell what the "shape and size" of the U.S. military commitment will look like, including military bases.

The Iraqi officials said that under the proposed formula, Iraq would get full responsibility for internal security and U.S. troops would relocate to bases outside the cities. Iraqi officials foresee a long-term presence of about 50,000 U.S. troops, down from the current figure of more than 160,000.

___

Associated Press Writer Qassim Abdul-Zahra in Baghdad contributed to this story.

___

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq


This is fun to read, too.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/11/20071126-1.html


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7684493 - 11/27/07 02:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oil is going up.  It's spiking.  So what?  Speculators having a snit.  Feh.  What's good for the economy is for the market to set the price.  Then domestic oil production becomes feasible.  Capisce?  The market adapts.




Ahh, so the Iraqi War was Bush's noble attempt to bring the free market to seek out sustainable energy? :smirk:

The market set that price directly because of American foreign policy.

Quote:


In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods.  And services.  Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?




So the dollar becoming increasingly valueless is going to enable our industry to be more competitive? :strokebeard: Won't prices increase when the dollar loses its value? What happens when the world begins dumping the dollar?

Quote:


Bush didn't blow anything, the economy is kicking it old school and has for several years.




If we are more in debt, then the economy is in worse shape, no matter what the present state seems like.


Quote:


US foreign policy is hardly the cause of the oil increase.  Have you ever heard of China?  And India?  They have just recently joined the 20th century, in case you weren't watching.




2002-2007. Iraqi War, U.S. presence in the Middle East, Iran's subsequent threats in defense. Oil in the Middle East.

Clearly there are other contributing factors, but China and India doesn't explain the price of oil quadrupling in five years. :sorry:

Quote:


Well, you have certainly bought into the never ending "It's good, but.....Bush sucks" of the MSM reportage of any economic news.




Not really, can't say that I follow that stuff much. :shrug:

Quote:


Everybody is fully aware that Bush is not the emperor (except anna) but he nonetheless is the pre-eminent representative of the US to the world.  Tough shit.




There is a difference between being a representative, and representing a country and its people.


Quote:


Pauline Kael was a film critic for the NYTimes in the sixties.  She was quoted (almost certainly falsely) as stating that she couldn't understand how Nixon got elected since nobody SHE knew voted for him.  It bespeaks an intellectual incestuousness and a cloistered idea of just what America is.




So, what's your point?


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7686524 - 11/27/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oil is going up.  It's spiking.  So what?  Speculators having a snit.  Feh.  What's good for the economy is for the market to set the price.  Then domestic oil production becomes feasible.  Capisce?  The market adapts.




Ahh, so the Iraqi War was Bush's noble attempt to bring the free market to seek out sustainable energy? :smirk:




Huh?
Quote:



The market set that price directly because of American foreign policy.





No. 
Quote:


Quote:


In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods.  And services.  Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?




So the dollar becoming increasingly valueless is going to enable our industry to be more competitive? :strokebeard: Won't prices increase when the dollar loses its value? What happens when the world begins dumping the dollar?




Valueless?  How does something become more valueless?  Valueless means it is already worth nothing.  Does it become worth more nothing?  Less nothing?  Are you twelve?  Foreign goods will cost more here, imports will go down, domestic production will go up.  Our goods will cost less there, exports will go up, domestic production will go up.  Here's the word of the day:  homeostasis.  Dump the dollar?  Where?  The Thames?  The Seine?  The Yangtze?  Come of the ledge, grasshopper.
Quote:



Quote:


Bush didn't blow anything, the economy is kicking it old school and has for several years.




If we are more in debt, then the economy is in worse shape, no matter what the present state seems like.




No
Quote:




Quote:


US foreign policy is hardly the cause of the oil increase.  Have you ever heard of China?  And India?  They have just recently joined the 20th century, in case you weren't watching.




2002-2007. Iraqi War, U.S. presence in the Middle East, Iran's subsequent threats in defense. Oil in the Middle East.

Clearly there are other contributing factors, but China and India doesn't explain the price of oil quadrupling in five years. :sorry:




Probably more of a factor than Iraq, which I believe has just announced that they will be reaching their OPEC quota this year.  At any rate, a stable Iraq, and we are winning big time, is an investment in the future.  You've heard of the concepts "future" and "investment" haven't you?
Quote:



Quote:


Well, you have certainly bought into the never ending "It's good, but.....Bush sucks" of the MSM reportage of any economic news.




Not really, can't say that I follow that stuff much. :shrug:

Quote:


Everybody is fully aware that Bush is not the emperor (except anna) but he nonetheless is the pre-eminent representative of the US to the world.  Tough shit.




There is a difference between being a representative, and representing a country and its people.




OK.  Not sure of your point or if you have a coherent one but I don't care, homey.
Quote:




Quote:


Pauline Kael was a film critic for the NYTimes in the sixties.  She was quoted (almost certainly falsely) as stating that she couldn't understand how Nixon got elected since nobody SHE knew voted for him.  It bespeaks an intellectual incestuousness and a cloistered idea of just what America is.




So, what's your point?




That you are ensconced in an intellectually incestuous cocoon of like minded proles.


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7689741 - 11/28/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Cheney has a motivation that, he feels, is worth the consequences. Clearly, it had nothing to do with terrorism, or liberating people in the name of democracy.




9/11 changed things. Also, the coming energy crisis helped to change his mind I'm sure.


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
It is disturbing to see a man who is clearly aware of the nature of reality to use his abilities and position for his own personal gain





Are you referring to Cheney being tied to Halliburtion? He is getting deferred salary (from his days as CEO of Halliburton) from them but the profitability of the company has nothing to do with him getting that...it is money that he is owed. He has a trust fund set up that has some Halliburton stock in it as I remember, but all profits from said trust are being donated to charity. Cheney is not profiting from Halliburton's profits.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7689773 - 11/28/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Anyways, yes, we have been in debt for half a century. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the ascension of the American empire, through the Cold War and into today. :rolleyes: :smirk:




These military expenditures did contribute to the debt that has accumulated at the federal level.  However, the debt that has been and will be contributed by the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, etc..) is much larger than any military-related debt.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
But... then... we kind of just... stopped that (Afghanistan) altogether.... and went into Iraq instead...




American troops are still present and active in Afghanistan.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Honestly, if you were concerned about the economy, I'd think you'd consider the fact that the best thing for the economy is to not see that (oil) crest again.




It was hoped that Iraq would become stable, the oil would start flowing again like it had when Iraq was prosperous, and that American companies would do all the pumping so that the American government could tax them ($$$) and the American consumer could get access to crude. 

Unfortunately, Iraq is not stable.  :shrug:


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Invisiblekake
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7692840 - 11/28/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

ZAPPAISGOD:

The economy is kicking it?

Are you fucking nuts?

Are you living in a cave?

Does 9 TRILLION dollars in debt = a good economy to you or something?

Seriously, WTF? I can't believe I'm reading this. I hate to say it, but SHUT UP.


--------------------
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OfflinePhred
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: kake]
    #7693946 - 11/29/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Actually, the US economy is as strong as it has ever been, by almost any measure you can think of.

Yes, it is true that there is a national debt, and that this debt in terms of absolute dollars is large. But you must also remember that the US economy is also large -- larger than any other, in fact. When you compare the US national debt to its annual GDP, you'll find it is less than that of many, MANY other countries.

That is not to say that debt is a good thing. Obviously it would be better for the government to reduce spending to the point where its outstanding debt could be reduced rather than increased. But the simple fact that the US has a national debt does not mean its economy sucks. Pretty near every country in the freaking world has a national debt.




Phred


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: Phred]
    #7693951 - 11/29/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm getting plenty of dividends from my government bonds and they're triple A rated.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7694233 - 11/29/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Huh?




You were proposing that oil going up would have positive effects for the economy, as though perhaps Bush intended on doing so for that good. :lol:

Quote:


No. 




Yes.

Quote:


In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods.  And services.  Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?




Who knows that they will become more competitive as the dollar drops. It all lies dependent on how the dollar drops, really. I'd have to think that 2007 is a unique situation - to think that everything cycles as it always does is pretty ignorant, as it never really does.

The dollar dropping really has nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with the government's spending, which pretty much correlates with our foreign policy in regards to the dollar dropping, as it also has a lot to do with foreign perception of what is happening with America.

Quote:


Valueless?  How does something become more valueless?  Valueless means it is already worth nothing.  Does it become worth more nothing?




Yes. :smirk:

The dollar is without value, it only has value because there is perception that it has value, I could have expressed myself more effectively by stating that as people increasingly realize its valuelessness. :hehehe:

Quote:


  Less nothing?  Are you twelve?




Perhaps. Want to date? :naughty:

Quote:


  Foreign goods will cost more here, imports will go down, domestic production will go up.  Our goods will cost less there, exports will go up, domestic production will go up.




That's pretty generalized and formulaic. The market and the globe are much more dynamic, and you can't simply take the dollar into account. The specific nature of how it will play out makes the difference between an easy transition and a depression, I'd have to think. No matter what, its a risky game, one that we wouldn't have to play if we were smarter.

Dollar, debt, gold, oil. :sherlock:

Quote:


Dump the dollar?  Where?  The Thames?  The Seine?  The Yangtze?  Come of the ledge, grasshopper.




Into the Boston Harbor on the 16th. :headbang:

Quote:


No




Yes.

Quote:


Probably more of a factor than Iraq, which I believe has just announced that they will be reaching their OPEC quota this year.




This clearly isn't about fufilling a quota. American presence in the Middle East and the rising tensions is clearly playing hell with it.

Are there other factors? Certainly. I don't think it is unreasonable to proclaim that the War in Iraq and the reverberations of our presence there constitutes causation of oil prices.

Quote:


  At any rate, a stable Iraq, and we are winning big time, is an investment in the future.




"Winning big time"? Substantiation? :strokebeard:

Iraq was stable before we went in. Of course, then Saddam was talking about doing business with the euro and not the dollar, and look what happened to him.

Quote:


  You've heard of the concepts "future" and "investment" haven't you?




Yes, but only in terms of dropping our empire. Of course, I'm sure the neocons consider taking action that proliferates the amount of terrorists as investing in a future of having a war on terrorism, with which civil liberties and an extended centralization of power will flourish. A police/military state doesn't sound intriguing to me when I think of the future, nor does Hillary's welfare state. :sorry:

Quote:


OK.  Not sure of your point or if you have a coherent one but I don't care, homey.




Allow me to clarify. There is a distinct difference between that of holding an office as a representative, and actually being a representative.

When a politician that wishes to spy on my usage of the internet or what I do with my money tells me that they are representing my interests, for example, they don't actually represent my interests. But yet, clearly, they can be elected to a position wherein they are given the title of representative.



Quote:


That you are ensconced in an intellectually incestuous cocoon of like minded proles.




Yes, but you haven't demonstrated the point, merely asserted it. :shrug:


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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7694249 - 11/29/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
9/11 changed things.




It didn't change anything regarding 9/11. For example, the international coalition and support he said was not there for Baghdad last time around, was there for pursuing the terrorists. Once again, it really wasn't there for Iraq, quite possibly because Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, or terrorism.... :shocked:

Quote:


  Also, the coming energy crisis helped to change his mind I'm sure.




I'm sure the "energy crisis" was known in '94 as well, and I'm certain that Cheney's mind "didn't change". The only thing that changed was what he said at one date compared to another. That is politics for you. It is the same thing for Mitt Romney... Hillary Clinton... mostly anyone, with the exception, of course, for Ron Paul. :headbang:


Quote:


Are you referring to Cheney being tied to Halliburtion?




No, I'm referring to being more interested in personal gain, in general, than for the reality of a situation, for the real interests of the American people and the country's well-being, and, not to mention, the framework within which government was intended to exist.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7694316 - 11/29/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
These military expenditures did contribute to the debt that has accumulated at the federal level. However, the debt that has been and will be contributed by the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, etc..) is much larger than any military-related debt.




This is true, and it is a concern of staggering importance. The costs of maintaining and expanding our military empire, as well as the threats it poses to our national defense and security are, nonetheless, serious concerns as well.

Quote:


American troops are still present and active in Afghanistan.




In which capacity, exactly? We have no real focus on pursuing those responsible and bringing them to justice, or else it would be evident. Afghanistan is a military base now, nothing more.

Quote:


It was hoped that Iraq would become stable, the oil would start flowing again like it had when Iraq was prosperous, and that American companies would do all the pumping so that the American government could tax them ($$$) and the American consumer could get access to crude.




Of course that was hoped. That's the whole point of expanding an empire, after all. Why should we respect the sovereignity of other nations, after all? Global hegemony is not sustainable.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7695358 - 11/29/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Huh?




You were proposing that oil going up would have positive effects for the economy, as though perhaps Bush intended on doing so for that good. :lol:
No I wasn't.  I stated that it is best that the market set the price.  You made some non sequitur about BUUUUUUUSH starting the war
"Ahh, so the Iraqi War was Bush's noble attempt to bring the free market to seek out sustainable energy?"
Bush derangement syndrome
 

Quote:


No. 




Yes.
My "no" was in response to this that you said
"The market set that price directly because of American foreign policy."
There are myriad factors in the price of oil.  I suppose you think the pipeline explosion today was American Foreign Policy.  Simple people look for simple explanations


Quote:


In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods.  And services.  Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?




Who knows that they will become more competitive as the dollar drops. It all lies dependent on how the dollar drops, really. I'd have to think that 2007 is a unique situation - to think that everything cycles as it always does is pretty ignorant, as it never really does.

Except when it does, which is always.  What basis do you have to support your ludicrous assertion that 2007 is somehow unique.

The dollar dropping really has nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with the government's spending, which pretty much correlates with our foreign policy in regards to the dollar dropping, as it also has a lot to do with foreign perception of what is happening with America.

Domestic spending in the US far outstrips any Defense spending.  And this is just dumb
"The dollar dropping really has nothing to do with the economy".


Quote:


Valueless?  How does something become more valueless?  Valueless means it is already worth nothing.  Does it become worth more nothing?




Yes. :smirk:

The dollar is without value, it only has value because there is perception that it has value, I could have expressed myself more effectively by stating that as people increasingly realize its valuelessness. :hehehe:

Just nonsense

Quote:


  Less nothing?  Are you twelve?




Perhaps. Want to date? :naughty:

We can play hide the action figure

Quote:


  Foreign goods will cost more here, imports will go down, domestic production will go up.  Our goods will cost less there, exports will go up, domestic production will go up.




That's pretty generalized and formulaic. The market and the globe are much more dynamic, and you can't simply take the dollar into account. The specific nature of how it will play out makes the difference between an easy transition and a depression, I'd have to think. No matter what, its a risky game, one that we wouldn't have to play if we were smarter.

Nobody's playing nothing and there is no reason to worry.

Dollar, debt, gold, oil. :sherlock:

The US debt is at fairly consistent historic levels, neither exceptionally high nor low.  Since you keep babbling about the war cost, what about the fact that the total war cost is about 5% of the debt?
cost of war so far $456B

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=107
National debt $9.1T
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
The Iraq war is by far our biggest "foreign policy" expense and yet you think that this 5% is what's driving the dollar down.  NOTHING to do with the economy.  Which is quite good anyway.

Quote:


Dump the dollar?  Where?  The Thames?  The Seine?  The Yangtze?  Come of the ledge, grasshopper.




Into the Boston Harbor on the 16th. :headbang:

Quote:


No




Yes.

Quote:


Probably more of a factor than Iraq, which I believe has just announced that they will be reaching their OPEC quota this year.




This clearly isn't about fufilling a quota. American presence in the Middle East and the rising tensions is clearly playing hell with it.

There were no tensions in the Middle East with Saddam Hussein invading countries left and right?

Are there other factors? Certainly. I don't think it is unreasonable to proclaim that the War in Iraq and the reverberations of our presence there constitutes causation of oil prices.

Quote:


  At any rate, a stable Iraq, and we are winning big time, is an investment in the future.




"Winning big time"? Substantiation? :strokebeard:

Read a newspaper, even the NYTimes has started to figure it out

Iraq was stable before we went in. Of course, then Saddam was talking about doing business with the euro and not the dollar, and look what happened to him.

Stable?  Stable and Hussein should not be included in the same sentence.  Saddam invaded Kuwait.  Look what happened to him.  This is Alex Jones quality stuff f_g

Quote:


  You've heard of the concepts "future" and "investment" haven't you?




Yes, but only in terms of dropping our empire. Of course, I'm sure the neocons consider taking action that proliferates the amount of terrorists as investing in a future of having a war on terrorism, with which civil liberties and an extended centralization of power will flourish. A police/military state doesn't sound intriguing to me when I think of the future, nor does Hillary's welfare state. :sorry:

There is no sign of a police state nor have I ever heard it proposed by neocons.  Now a Hillary welfare state I have heard of.

Quote:


OK.  Not sure of your point or if you have a coherent one but I don't care, homey.




Allow me to clarify. There is a distinct difference between that of holding an office as a representative, and actually being a representative.

When a politician that wishes to spy on my usage of the internet or what I do with my money tells me that they are representing my interests, for example, they don't actually represent my interests. But yet, clearly, they can be elected to a position wherein they are given the title of representative.

George W. Bush is the duly elected representative of the American people.  That there is one or several million disgruntled people who don't like him is irrelevant to that fact



Quote:


That you are ensconced in an intellectually incestuous cocoon of like minded proles.




Yes, but you haven't demonstrated the point, merely asserted it. :shrug:




We would have to hang out.  I'll bring the action figure, you savage rascal.


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