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Offlineguest
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Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup.
    #7677259 - 11/25/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hi guys,

This is my first post ever - although I frequent often. At any rate, just came across this article on drudge report. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Mine: Uh, is this crazy or what? Just one more violation showing how un-free we really are. Link has video footage.

http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/14659066/detail.html

Local 2 Investigates Police Secrecy Behind Unmanned Aircraft Test
By Stephen Dean


WALLER COUNTY, Texas -- Houston police started testing unmanned aircraft and the event was shrouded in secrecy, but it was captured on tape by Local 2 Investigates.

Neighbors in rural Waller County said they thought a top-secret military venture was under way among the farmland and ranches, some 70 miles northwest of Houston. KPRC Local 2 Investigates had four hidden cameras aimed at a row of mysterious black trucks. Satellite dishes and a swirling radar added to the neighbors' suspense.

Then, cameras were rolling as an unmanned aircraft was launched into the sky and operated by remote control.
Click here to find out more!

Houston police cars were surrounding the land with a roadblock in place to check each of the dignitaries arriving for the invitation-only event. The invitation spelled out, "NO MEDIA ALLOWED."

HPD Chief Harold Hurtt attended, along with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and dozens of officers from various police agencies in the Houston area. Few of the guests would comment as they left the test site.

News Chopper 2 had a Local 2 Investigates team following the aircraft for more than one hour as it circled overhead. Its wings spanned 10 feet and it circled at an altitude of 1,500 feet. Operators from a private firm called Insitu, Inc. manned remote controls from inside the fleet of black trucks as the guests watched a live feed from the high-powered camera aboard the 40-pound aircraft.

"I wasn't ready to publicize this," Executive Assistant Police Chief Martha Montalvo said. She and other department leaders hastily organized a news conference when they realized Local 2 Investigates had captured the entire event on camera.

"We still haven't even decided how we were going to go forward on this task, so it seemed premature to me to announce this to the media," Montalvo said. "But since, obviously, the media found out about it, then I don't see any reason why just not go forward with what we have so far."

Montalvo told reporters the unmanned aircraft would be used for "mobility" or traffic issues, evacuations during storms, homeland security, search and rescue, and also "tactical." She admitted that could include covert police actions and she said she was not ruling out someday using the drones for writing traffic tickets.

A large number of the officers at the test site were assigned to the department's ticket-writing Radar Task Force. Capt. Tom Runyan insisted they were only there to provide "site security," even though KPRC cameras spotted those officers heavily participating in the test flight.

Houston police contacted KPRC from the test site, claiming the entire airspace was restricted by the Federal Aviation Administration. Police even threatened action from the FAA if the Local 2 helicopter remained in the area. However, KPRC reported it had already checked with the FAA on numerous occasions and found no flight restrictions around the site, a point conceded by Montalvo.

HPD leaders said they would address privacy and unlawful search questions later.

South Texas College of Law professor Rocky Rhodes, who teaches the constitution and privacy issues, said, "One issue is going to be law enforcement using this and when, by using these drones, are they conducting a search in which they'd need probable cause or a warrant. If the drones are being used to get into private spaces and be able to view where the government cannot otherwise go, and to collect information that would not otherwise be able to collect, that's concerning to me."

HPD Assistant Chief Vickie King said of the unmanned aircraft, "It's interesting that privacy doesn't occur or searches aren't an issue when you have a helicopter pilot over you and it would not be used in airspace other than what our helicopters are used in already."

She admitted that police helicopters are not equipped with cameras nearly as powerful as the unmanned aircraft, but she downplayed any privacy concerns, saying news helicopters have powerful cameras as well.

HPD stressed it is working with the FAA on reviewing the technical specifications, the airworthiness and hazards of flying unmanned aircraft in an urban setting. Future test flights are planned.

The price tag for an unmanned aircraft ranges from $30,000 to $1 million each and HPD is hoping to begin law enforcement from the air by June of 2008 with these new aircraft.


Edited by guest (11/25/07 09:42 AM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: guest]
    #7677868 - 11/25/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

in what way does this make you less free?


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Offlineguest
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: wilshire]
    #7677941 - 11/25/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I should probably edit that part out. Not so much less-free.

Although, the article in itself interested me. I wouldn't think this would happen in our boundaries.

I guess the paragraph that stuck out the most is:

"South Texas College of Law professor Rocky Rhodes, who teaches the constitution and privacy issues, said, "One issue is going to be law enforcement using this and when, by using these drones, are they conducting a search in which they'd need probable cause or a warrant. If the drones are being used to get into private spaces and be able to view where the government cannot otherwise go, and to collect information that would not otherwise be able to collect, that's concerning to me.""


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: guest]
    #7678089 - 11/25/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"South Texas College of Law professor Rocky Rhodes, who teaches the constitution and privacy issues, said, "One issue is going to be law enforcement using this and when, by using these drones, are they conducting a search in which they'd need probable cause or a warrant. If the drones are being used to get into private spaces and be able to view where the government cannot otherwise go, and to collect information that would not otherwise be able to collect, that's concerning to me."

i'm not sure what spaces he could be talking about. are these things supposed to be able to fly into our homes or something? has he never seen a helicopter?


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Offlineguest
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: wilshire]
    #7678113 - 11/25/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

lol touche


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: guest]
    #7678603 - 11/25/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Look at the issue of FLIR cameras. The supreme court has laready said that they can't use that type of imaging to look into our homes without a warrant. Those drones are well known to have those types of infrared cameras in them. So they really shouldn't be flying drones with illegal searching equipment in them unless they are on a warrant.


-FF


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: fastfred]
    #7680546 - 11/26/07 04:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> So they really shouldn't be flying drones with illegal searching equipment in them unless they are on a warrant.

How is the searching equipment illegal in of itself? It isn't. Just because FLIR cannot be used to search a home with a warrant does not mean that it does not have valid, legal, uses outside of searching homes.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: Seuss]
    #7680745 - 11/26/07 07:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

yep like inspecting the heat coming off peoples roofs :smilingpuppy:


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7684665 - 11/27/07 06:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> yep like inspecting the heat coming off peoples roofs

I was thinking more along the lines of finding the guy hiding in the bushes that just robbed your home.


--------------------
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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: wilshire]
    #7684885 - 11/27/07 08:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
in what way does this make you less free?




It makes me feel less free because of the bit she said about traffic tickets. I live in Houston and it's hard enough to speed and keep an eye out for cops on the roadway, much less some frickin' eye in the sky ticket machine.

I like to drive fast damn it.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #7684955 - 11/27/07 08:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I just have a hard time visualizing any "useful and practical" things one of these drones could do.

There prob is a nice place for them somewhere, but I don't think thats where they will be aimed.

What I do imagine is a about one of these in every city flying around mapping every inch of the state. Coupled with all the other means of surveillance will there be a time when cussing or putting bubble gum on the side walk will result in a ticket pm'ed to your Rfid chip? Sorta like in demolition man.

I guess the question, is do you feel a human deserves privacy outside a wooden cage? It's bad enough being surrounded by 100k people per city.

I'd rather live in the wild west than a wooden box
wait let me rephrase that
I'd rather be shot and buried in a box, than to live inside a wooden box.

I'm just looking at the bigger picture, and the drone planes are nothing but bad news for it.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (11/27/07 08:34 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7685393 - 11/27/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> I just have a hard time visualizing any "useful and practical" things one of these drones could do.

It replaces police helicopters, operating at a fraction of the cost. It costs around $700 per hour to fly a police helicopter. Using helicopters, they can track fleeing suspects without endangering the public with high speed chases. With FLIR, they can follow a fleeing suspects footprints well after he left them. Again, with FLIR, they can spot people that are hiding. They even supply extra light at night when needed. If all of this can be done with an unmanned drone at a fraction of the cost per hour, then it is a good buy for the tax payer.

> I'm just looking at the bigger picture, and the drone planes are nothing but bad news for it.

No, you are looking at the paranoid picture. Like any aspect of law enforcement, they can be abused by the police. If the police are going to violate civil rights using unmanned drones, then we have much bigger issues to worry about and should be fixing the real problem rather than taking away a very useful tool for law enforcement.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: Seuss]
    #7689665 - 11/28/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I believe every tool ever conceived by law enforcement has been abused at one time or another. As these tools get more and more powerful so does the abuse.

I'm not sure if their is a way around the abuse, but I see expensive helicopters as a good thing, as they will have to have more reason to use it.

Once these drones get into mass production, the only limiting factor will be how many people can fly them.

Again all this surveillance on humans is bullshit, do you really wanna live in a world where you WILL get a ticket EVERY time you don't put your bubble gum in the trash.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7689687 - 11/28/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Again all this surveillance on humans is bullshit, do you really wanna live in a world where you WILL get a ticket EVERY time you don't put your bubble gum in the trash.




This highlights the difference in the way we view this issue. I see it as a tool to help track down the guy that just raped your wife. You see it as a tool to watch for people jaywalking. It isn't the tool that is the problem, but the improper use of the tool. As a society, we need to fix the problem rather than ignore the problem and hope for the best. A good start would be to vote out of office every single politician that voted in favor of the patriot act.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: Seuss]
    #7691684 - 11/28/07 05:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Again all this surveillance on humans is bullshit, do you really wanna live in a world where you WILL get a ticket EVERY time you don't put your bubble gum in the trash.




This highlights the difference in the way we view this issue. I see it as a tool to help track down the guy that just raped your wife. You see it as a tool to watch for people jaywalking. It isn't the tool that is the problem, but the improper use of the tool. As a society, we need to fix the problem rather than ignore the problem and hope for the best. A good start would be to vote out of office every single politician that voted in favor of the patriot act.




Absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are nowhere near having a system that prevents corruption and abuse of power. In fact, plenty of obvious and flagrant abuses of power, like the drug war and other victimless crimes, are completely sanctioned by today's society.

Giving them more sophisticated tools to further their already proven corrupt and abusive stranglehold on their citizens is absolutely foolish.

Do you really want to live in a society where there are always unmanned drones circling overhead watching your every move with sophisticated imaging systems? It will happen soon enough if we let it.

And do you really think that knowing everyone's movements and associates will PREVENT crime? More crime may be solved, but I don't think that very much will be prevented.

It's also the nature of the tool that it will be more useful for spying on people and directed action than it will be for preventing random crimes.

I think the benefit you see is almost nonexistent, while the abuses are nearly certain. It's not like the government isn't already abusing it's power. Giving a corrupt system filled with corrupt people surveillance power like this is certain to end in disaster. It's not like we're talking about Canada or the Netherlands getting this, we're talking about Amerika here!


-FF


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OfflineAuroricDistortions
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: fastfred]
    #7692537 - 11/28/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with Seuss

>>This highlights the difference in the way we view this issue. I see it as a tool to help track down the [bad] guy...You see it as a tool to watch for [us (the good guys)].

It's a matter of logic versus current reality. Ideally, most of the resident population would not want to break any law; it would be neither profitable nor socially acceptable. However, our (USA) laws are heavily influenced by money, and subsequently, legislative power; so the executive branch enforces an upward spiraling money vortex.

Lost my thought near the end there....


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: AuroricDistortions]
    #7692819 - 11/28/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What would you call this?

I recently got to meet with the guy that headed up this project originally and he pointed me in the right direction. What they really don't mention in the wiki article is what PSYOP stuff it does? The government has discovered a microwave on the lower end that can penetrate the skull and brain cell neurons. They've realized they can suggest ideas into your brain without you ever knowing it. This operation solo used a C-130 in Desert Storm to "suggest" all fleeing iraqi's to take the same road (later known as the road of death) where we cluster bombed it into the stone age. Killing the vaste majority of the iraqi army.

It all goes much deeper than this. Do some research. You should be worried about the idea's in your head that aren't yours!

He's also been monitoring HAARP in Alaska (capable of transmitting microwaves around the globe) and found that the HAARP is now broadcasting the identical frequency he used to implant artificial thoughts during desert storm. As well as that, the signal has quadrupled in power.


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"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (11/28/07 09:41 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7693607 - 11/29/07 03:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> This operation solo used a C-130 in Desert Storm to "suggest" all fleeing iraqi's to take the same road

... also, the only road available at the time.  :rolleyes:


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. [Re: Seuss]
    #7693666 - 11/29/07 05:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
This highlights the difference in the way we view this issue.  I see it as a tool to help track down the guy that just raped your wife.  You see it as a tool to watch for people jaywalking.  It isn't the tool that is the problem, but the improper use of the tool.  As a society, we need to fix the problem rather than ignore the problem and hope for the best.  A good start would be to vote out of office every single politician that voted in favor of the patriot act.




I really liked your response it hit the nail on the head :thumbup:

So would you agree we need to fix the problems with the country before giving them any more tools to abuse?

I think alot of things the drones could do for "good" could be done just as good or even better by ourselves by bearing arms.  So purhaps the drones can wait till were more healthy as a country.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Police Drones Violating Privacy in the US? Yup. *DELETED* [Re: Seuss]
    #7693710 - 11/29/07 06:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.



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Edited by Chemy (11/29/07 06:15 AM)


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