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InvisibleRahz
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Ignorance and Socrates
    #7676412 - 11/24/07 11:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ignorance is bliss. The only case in which I think this would truly apply would be when something is simply not known. This is actually the proper definition. A non-blissful state of ignorance (and perhaps a truer definition) might be when something is ignored because it causes a conflict of thought patterns. To become ignorant, in this case, requires ignoring a cause of discomfort. It may remove the stress from consciousness, but the disparaging information can still affect the subconscious mind. So, even the "blissfulness" of forgetfulness would not truly be blissful unless the information was truly forgotten and unavailable.

"I know nothing" spoken by Socrates. Another reference quotes him as saying "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

So, what type of ignorance is Socrates referring to? The kind that is experienced by ignoring something? Or, the kind that comes from not having knowledge to begin with? It could be said that Socrates was a knowledgeable man. In this respect, he was much less ignorant than the common person. But I don't believe he was referring to ignorance in this way. But it also seems he wasn't referring to ignorance as the act of ignoring mental discrepancies. Or was he?

What did Socrates mean? In what way was he ignorant?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #7676433 - 11/24/07 11:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think he meant that regardless of the amount of knowledge he did have, there was much beyond it that he had no knowledge of. So the former defintion applies.


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #7676484 - 11/24/07 11:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ignorance is bliss. The only case in which I think this would truly apply would be when something is simply not known. This is actually the proper definition. A non-blissful state of ignorance (and perhaps a truer definition) might be when something is ignored because it causes a conflict of thought patterns ...




....uneasiness or plain fury.

There are certain facts of life in the city that i would rather be ignorant of, such as men chasing and hacking each other with machetes and long curved swords, and movies glorifying such violence.

Quote:

"I know nothing" spoken by Socrates. Another reference quotes him as saying "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."




He is just stating a fact, not accepted by majority of humans.


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

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Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

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Edited by shakercee (11/25/07 07:42 AM)


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #7676918 - 11/25/07 04:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Socrates wasn't really ignorant, he had conceptions of virtues he just wasn't silly enough to believe that he had the answers to what justice or piety was.


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Noetical]
    #7676919 - 11/25/07 04:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That was his ignorance


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: shakercee]
    #7677787 - 11/25/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't believe he was referring to worldly knowledge. If so, he made himself a liar.

>>>>He is just stating a fact, not accepted by majority of humans.

I agree. We are all ignorant, some know it, most don't. Perhaps to know ones self is to know nothing. To be ignorant through active avoidance is an effort. A futile struggle to kill what is undesirable. It's a play on duality, and the dream keeps the nightmare alive. It is not an easy thing to explain. He stated it as simply as possible and left it for us to figure out.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #7682356 - 11/26/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not sure what you mean by worldly knowledge.

If you are referring to virtue and morality then I think its very apparent from reading the dialogues that he considered himself ignorant in these matters.

By no means was Socrates an advocate of ignorance. He spent his life searching for wisdom.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #7683024 - 11/26/07 06:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ignorance is bliss. The only case in which I think this would truly apply would be when something is simply not known. This is actually the proper definition. A non-blissful state of ignorance (and perhaps a truer definition) might be when something is ignored because it causes a conflict of thought patterns. To become ignorant, in this case, requires ignoring a cause of discomfort. It may remove the stress from consciousness, but the disparaging information can still affect the subconscious mind. So, even the "blissfulness" of forgetfulness would not truly be blissful unless the information was truly forgotten and unavailable.




True ignorance requires that there be information that is being willingly ignored. Simply a lack of knowledge is not the same.

People can be ignorant about something and just forget it, or it's deep in the back of their mind. And perhaps they will be momentarily happy because they have forgotten some trouble, but it always will catch up to them in the end.

Ignorance is not bliss. But the saying refers to ignorance of information that has been presented to them somehow and subsequent information.


Quote:


"I know nothing" spoken by Socrates. Another reference quotes him as saying "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

So, what type of ignorance is Socrates referring to? The kind that is experienced by ignoring something? Or, the kind that comes from not having knowledge to begin with? It could be said that Socrates was a knowledgeable man. In this respect, he was much less ignorant than the common person. But I don't believe he was referring to ignorance in this way. But it also seems he wasn't referring to ignorance as the act of ignoring mental discrepancies. Or was he?

What did Socrates mean? In what way was he ignorant?




He seems to be reflecting the whole subjective theme, saying also that he knows he doesn't know anything except his own ignorance (simply lack of knowledge) because he knows for sure he doesn't know everything. This might make sense to some people, but really it's a blatant contradiction because for him to know he has a lack of knowledge requires an outside objective. I'm not a subscriber to the subjective mantra.


Edited by jonathan_206 (11/27/07 09:16 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Noetical]
    #7685337 - 11/27/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

By worldly knowledge, I mean everything but wisdom. What the soldier knows, that can teach to another so that they may also become a soldier. What the politician knows that can be taught to another so that they may also be a politician.

Socrates defined wisdom as knowledge of the self. When told that he was the wisest, he replied that he knew nothing. He must have meant knowledge of the self, and was not speaking of information, which one can gather but never have all of. In this I think we agree.

So was Socrates an ignorant man, who did not advocate ignorance? I think he was suggesting that something be ignored. My question is what was that.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7685348 - 11/27/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>True ignorance requires that there be information that is being willingly ignored. Simply a lack of knowledge is not the same.

Exactly. That is the point I was suggesting.

>>>>He seems to be reflecting the whole subjective theme, saying also that he knows he doesn't know anything except his own ignorance (simply lack of knowledge) because he knows for sure he doesn't know everything. This might make sense to some people, but really it's a blatant contradiction because for him to know he has a lack of knowledge requires an outside objective. I'm not a subscriber to the subjective mantra.

I don't believe this is what he was saying, and if it were, it would not make sense to me.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: Ignorance and Socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #7695582 - 11/29/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Knowledge was an understanding of the nature of the forms. (politician justice, soldier courage).

Wisedom was an understanding of the good, not an understanding of self (which I would say is part of the path to understanding the good).

Socrates tried to show people they were ignorant because there false beliefs got in the way of being able to understand the good and the virtues and be wise.

The best thing for a man was care of his soul.

So I guess I disagree


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