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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0
    #7673955 - 11/24/07 09:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thought I'd share this... First is a small quote from an op-ed piece by some dude named Jim Hoagland...

Quote:


The lead in national GOP polls garnered by Rudy Giuliani's fear-mongering campaign demonstrates that the GOP is deeply factionalized today.

I confess that Giuliani has succeeded in scaring me with his New York-tough-guy, okay-with-waterboarding, hooray-for-Guantanamo routine. There is much to fear in having another president with so little perspective on global strategy and so little regard for the views not just of other nations but also of America's uniformed military command when it comes to torture and harsh interrogation techniques.

Giuliani strums the same psychological chords that you hear resonating through the speeches of President Bush and Vice President Cheney these days: The nation and the world may have moved on from Sept. 11, but I haven't and I won't. I will do whatever it takes in the war on terrorism and Iraq and everywhere else, while lesser politicians won't. Giuliani is the candidate of continuity on foreign and national security policy -- the willful inheritor of Bush and Cheney.

But the Bush administration has squandered the Republicans' natural electoral advantage on national security and on fiscal responsibility for this campaign and perhaps beyond. Being identified with these incumbents is at best a dubious blessing.




And here's a great article...
Giuliani's Critics Point to Cronyism

Quote:


Surround Yourself With Great People" was the title of a chapter in "Leadership," Rudolph W. Giuliani's best-selling celebration of his management style, but to critics of his performance in two terms as mayor of New York, it was an admonition he too often ignored.

While some of his original appointments to high-level city jobs were well regarded, these critics describe a pattern in which capable appointees either quit or were pushed out, leaving the top levels of the Giuliani administration increasingly populated by friends and close associates. Some of the later appointees became shrouded in scandal, including Bernard B. Kerik, the former police commissioner indicted this month on 16 counts of corruption, mail and tax fraud, obstruction of justice, and lying to the government.

"As he became more confident in his ability, he didn't need anything from others other than to be loyal to him," said Marilyn Gelber, who was ousted as Giuliani's environment commissioner in 1996. "The management style grew harder as time went on and as he grew more comfortable with the level of control he wanted."

Giuliani's close association with Kerik, especially his lobbying of the Bush administration three years ago to make his former associate the secretary of homeland security, threatens to undermine one of the central arguments of his candidacy for the Republican presidential nomination: that he is a superior leader who would bring to the White House high standards and a level of managerial acumen that many, including Republicans, say is missing under President Bush.

Giuliani's critics say that while he is justifiably praised for his leadership in the days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, his advancement of Kerik, his former chauffeur, was part of a pattern of rewarding loyalty over competence in personnel decisions. "It's pretty clear that his judgment on political appointments was weighted more heavily to cronies and friends than to quality," said Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters, which has endorsed Sen. Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.) for president and has turned sharply against Giuliani after supporting him early in his mayoralty. "Are we going to have a chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who's a private first class but who happens to be a friend? Are we going to have a law clerk who becomes attorney general?"

The Giuliani campaign dismisses such criticisms, saying that Giuliani's judgment as a manager was vindicated by his administration's overall success in reducing crime and welfare and improving the city's quality of life and economy.

"You've got to look at the results," said Joe Lhota, a deputy mayor under Giuliani, speaking for his presidential campaign. "The results are emblematic of his philosophy and the people he hired to implement that philosophy."

Hiring political allies for top jobs has a long history in city government, and Giuliani was hardly the first mayor of New York to bring along loyalists to be his advisers inside City Hall. What set him apart, observers say, was the extent to which he also emphasized loyalty in looking for people beyond those City Hall aides to run city agencies. And, given that he was taking over after years of Democratic rule, he was faced with a smaller pool of candidates who were both experienced and politically sympathetic. This became apparent as time wore on, said Dick Dadey, director of Citizens Union, a city watchdog group.

"When you start a new administration, you generally draw from a pool of extremely interested and well-qualified people who are eager to bring change," Dadey said. "As the first wave starts to move on, those who have been with you from the beginning and remain loyal to you start to move up, but they do not necessarily move up because they're the most qualified."

The police department exemplifies the shift. Giuliani hired as his first commissioner William J. Bratton, who made his reputation leading the Boston police and New York transit police but was also known for his self-promotion. After forcing Bratton out in 1996, when they clashed over claiming credit for the drop in crime, Giuliani passed over several department veterans and instead turned to his more strait-laced fire commissioner, Howard Safir, whom he knew from their days pursuing drug traffickers in the early 1980s. Safir was then with the U.S. Marshals Service, and Giuliani was with the Justice Department. "Howard and I go back 20 years," Giuliani said in announcing the move.

Safir presided over a continuation of the drop in crime. But he came under intense criticism after the fatal police shooting of an unarmed black man, for failing to provide adequate oversight of the police unit involved in the shootings and for his detached response. He also came under scrutiny for, among other things, taking a corporate jet to the Academy Awards shortly after the shootings, for assigning eight detectives to his daughter's wedding, and for sending officers to investigate a woman who rear-ended his wife's car.

When Safir left four years later, Giuliani pronounced him the "city's greatest police commissioner." Fred Siegel, the author of a flattering biography of Giuliani, disagrees, calling the switch from Bratton to Safir the "worst policy decision" Giuliani made. Safir, Siegel said, lacked the instincts needed in the city and contributed to the worsening racial tensions in Giuliani's second term. "This was [Giuliani's] biggest failure," said Siegel, "not being big enough to keep Bratton. . . . Many of the failures [of his second term] flowed from that decision."

To replace Safir as fire commissioner in 1996, Giuliani chose Thomas Von Essen, a rank-and-file firefighter who was far down the department's chain of command but headed the firefighters union local that backed Giuliani in 1993. Also in 1996, Giuliani selected a nationally known bioterrorism expert, Jerome Hauer, to head his new office of emergency management. But Hauer left in 2000, partly out of frustration with Giuliani's inability to get the police and fire departments to cooperate more.

Giuliani replaced Hauer with Richie Sheirer, an early supporter of the mayor's and an aide to Safir who spent most of his career as a fire department dispatcher. Sheirer and Von Essen both met with tough questioning by the Sept. 11 commission over the failure of the fire department's radios and the lack of coordination among public safety agencies the day of the attacks. They now both work for Giuliani's security consulting firm and did not return a call seeking comment. Safir also did not return calls.

Hauer said the limits of Giuliani's leadership team became clear to him after he returned at City Hall's request to help out after the Sept. 11 attacks and was startled to discover that neither Kerik nor Von Essen nor Sheirer had ever obtained federal security clearance, which made it hard for Hauer to discuss information he was receiving from Washington. Shortly afterward, Giuliani banished Hauer from Ground Zero after Hauer endorsed a Democrat to succeed the mayor.

Giuliani "had a blind spot when it came to people he knew well" and "very little respect for the vetting process," Hauer said. "The competent people in the administration all tended to leave because they got tired of the borderline-incompetent people who got in. He ran off the professionals because they were difficult to work with. If they didn't do things the way he wanted or overshadowed him, he got furious."

Fran Reiter, a deputy mayor under Giuliani, said most initial Cabinet hires came via a "very extensive search process," but the mayor was more likely to emphasize personal ties when it came to public safety jobs. Giuliani wanted ownership over that realm because of his law enforcement background, she said. And he worried that department veterans who he did not have ties with would have more allegiance to the departments than to him.

"These were areas where he just really wanted people whom he trusted and who were not going to do anything other than what he wanted them to do," she said.

Giuliani's most ill-fated promotion, other than Kerik's, was his 1998 choice to run the city's Housing Development Corp.: Russell Harding, the son of the former head of New York's Liberal Party, whose backing of Giuliani was crucial in his election. Harding had no college degree or background in housing and finance, and was eventually convicted of stealing more than $300,000 from the agency and sentenced to more than five years in prison for the embezzlement and for possessing child pornography. In "Leadership," Giuliani wrote that there is nothing wrong with hiring supporters if they are qualified. "Patronage does not mean giving a job to someone who supported you politically," he writes. "It means giving a job to someone only because he supported you politically."

Gelber, for one, argues that the latter definition applied to the Giuliani administration. She freely admits she got her job for political reasons -- she was chief of staff to the Brooklyn borough president, and to curry favor with him, a Democrat, Giuliani hired her as his first environment commissioner. At first, she was impressed with Giuliani's zeal to "look for new ideas and new ways of doing things," which included organizing thoughtful seminars on governance for Cabinet members.

But she grew disillusioned when she started getting pressure from City Hall to hire political supporters and fire those from the previous administration, including a secretary, as well as criticism for receiving too much praise in the newspapers for her work. Things came to a head, she said, when City Hall told her to hire an applicant for a key deputy post overseeing air quality who presented as his qualification some materials on his work for the Giuliani campaign, including a thank-you letter from the mayor.

Gelber eventually gave in but blew up at the deputy in 1996 after two asbestos incidents in which she says he failed to take charge. Giuliani fired her shortly afterward.




I think this pretty much summarizes Giuliani, and I think that we will see his lead continue to diminish as time passes. If he does make it to being the Republican nomination, he'll certainly lose to the Democratic nominee. There really is no distinction between the direction that Bush has taken this country, and the way that Giuliani will lead it, and this is clearly a curse.

I don't think anyone here already doesn't realize this, but it just feels good to see this come out in the mainstream media more often. Same goes for Hillary Clinton and her bullshit games she plays. :rolleyes:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7673998 - 11/24/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Oddly, you supply no link to the Hoagland piece. I looked up his wiki and found this quote.

Quote:

"The United States is engaged in a shadow war that must now be the central priority for this president and his administration for every day of his term." -- The Washington Post, 2001



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Hoagland

As far as cronyism goes, I see no greater or lesser tendency by Giuliani to engage in it than anyone else.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7674034 - 11/24/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7674073 - 11/24/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.sportsbook.com/sportsbook/livelines.php?st=203#

2008 Presidential Race (the current odds - for election as President)


Hillary Clinton 3-1

Al Gore 4-1

Fred Thompson 4-1

John McCain 5-1

Rudy Giuliani 5-1

Barack Obama 7-2

John Edwards 6-1

Ron Paul 6-1

Mitt Romney 8-1

Michael Bloomberg 15-1

Bill Richardson 50-1


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7674120 - 11/24/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks. Funny how Hoagland has done a 180. It's one of the perks of the chattering class.

I hate that "fear mongering" line. It's total bullshit. There is a pathological human disease in which the automatic fear response is disabled. It's victims have a greatly increased incidence of accidental death.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7674138 - 11/24/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You got Hilary backward. According to those guys, Hilary isn't 3-1, she's 1-3. Between that and Gore being 4-1 I think that these boys may be a tad early. Their math aint quite up to snuff, either, since everything needs to add up to 1. Just to take 2, Hilary at 1-3 is .75 and Gore (who isn't running) is .2. Not much left for anybody else, is there?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7674148 - 11/24/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

these boys had it right in 2004. but its waaaaaaaay early.:)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7674172 - 11/24/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So did I (in 2000, I just hoped, although I yelled "bullshit" at the TV when they tried to call Florida). I realized Kerry was a widely hateable candidate and Hilary is kicking Kerry's negatives to the curb. I know liberals who will vote for Rudy before her. Loud mouth, obnoxious upper West Side liberals. At any rate, their math isn't possible.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7674173 - 11/24/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the only thing I find my gut-wrenching than the fact that the nation is still
discussing Giuliani as a viable candidate is the fact that his replacement
as the republican front runner is a flip-flopper who believes that the masonic
snake oil salesman spoke to an angel and deciphered two golden tablets with
magic stones.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: afoaf]
    #7674178 - 11/24/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How is that any more or less ridiculous than any other religion?


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7674293 - 11/24/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

generally, I find these contemporary ponzi schemes much more offensive if not
only because of the idiocy required to buy in to a creation story hatched 2
generations ago.

mind you, I think they're all a crock, but I think it really takes someone
*special* to be a scientologist or mormon by free choice.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7674763 - 11/24/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The liberals you know must be some really *special* people. Anyone with half a brain can look at Rudy and see 4 more years of Bush (whether you like Bush or not)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: xFrockx]
    #7675315 - 11/24/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No, I don't. Rudy is pro choice. He obviously does not have any interest in opposing his religion on anyone. Anyway, my statement was in specific reference to their feelings about the hildabeast, who they believe to be a heinous bitch and phony. I don't know what they'll do if Obama or Edwards or even Gore gets the nod. But they sure do have a bit of appreciation for what Rudy did around here, since they aren't getting mugged quite as regularly as they used to. I know most of you have no appreciation for that but in the early 90s it was widely assumed that NYC was ungovernable.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7675329 - 11/24/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah. I'll agree with you there, Hilary is definitely not who I'd want to have running the country either. Imagine 100 years form now when people look at our past presidents and see "Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton" I really doubt they'll think we were a democracy.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7682796 - 11/26/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Rudy said he would continue to have the dividend tax cut. I hope he gets elected.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: afoaf]
    #7683419 - 11/26/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
generally, I find these contemporary ponzi schemes much more offensive if not
only because of the idiocy required to buy in to a creation story hatched 2
generations ago.

mind you, I think they're all a crock, but I think it really takes someone
*special* to be a scientologist or mormon by free choice.





I'll go with the odds... it seems lately whenever a democrat is in office he's usually a governer first (clinton, carter)... but republicans..  when was the last time a republican was a governer first besides reagan?


I still think it's Guliani vs Hillary.

Anyone wanna wager anything on it? Who wants to start a pool with me? :wink:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: xFrockx]
    #7683457 - 11/26/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
The liberals you know must be some really *special* people. Anyone with half a brain can look at Rudy and see 4 more years of Bush (whether you like Bush or not)




if you had half a brain you would look at giuliani and see that even 4 more years of bush is still infinitely preferable to what giuliani has in store for us WHEN (not if) he becomse POTUS...giuliani isnt bush 2.0 but rather bush2...and in 2010 there will be threads about how liberal king george was.. provided..that is..that zappa &co arent the only ones that il duce hasnt dissappeared...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7683568 - 11/26/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

A democracy?
:lolz0rz:


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: afoaf]
    #7684518 - 11/27/07 02:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
the only thing I find my gut-wrenching than the fact that the nation is still
discussing Giuliani as a viable candidate is the fact that his replacement
as the republican front runner is a flip-flopper who believes that the masonic
snake oil salesman spoke to an angel and deciphered two golden tablets with
magic stones.




Name recognition is the only reason why Giuliani was considered in the first place, the simple fact that he was a mayor of NYC is the only reason why he hasn't dropped back off the face of the earth. The simple fact is that the most pressing concern for the general population is getting out of Iraq. That is the deciding factor, and Ron Paul is the only one saying he'll have them out of their as soon as it takes to give the orders and start shipping them out.

Mitt Romney isn't viable either. We're still at a point where most Americans simply aren't involved. I called my mother in Iowa the other day with the intention of seeing what she was going to do about the primaries and everything, to find out she isn't even registered to vote. :lol: I started telling her about Ron Paul and I asked if she had ever heard about him, and she said she hears about him every day on the radio, and on the television. I asked if she liked what he has to say, and she said yes, and that we need to get our troops home. I told her she has a month to register as a Republican to vote. :smirk:

Ron Paul is the only viable candidate on the Republican side, with the exception of John McCain, I think, depending on how he starts to think about the issues. Mitt Romney is only there because of his money, which won't buy him the election, and Giuliani's "Stay Bush's Course" attitude about near everything is dangerously foolish.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Rudy Giuliani - Bush 2.0 [Re: Luddite]
    #7684532 - 11/27/07 02:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
Rudy said he would continue to have the dividend tax cut. I hope he gets elected.




Ron Paul said he will work to have the income tax eliminated, as well as the death tax... He will cut taxes in general, as well as spending overall... I know he will get elected. :yesnod:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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