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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7675191 - 11/24/07 04:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nevermind.


Edited by daytripper23 (11/24/07 05:18 PM)


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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: daytripper23]
    #7675314 - 11/24/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Then isn't the real illusion our ordinary conception of the self?




I think so.

Quote:

Isn't selfishness in an ordinary sense just as much of an illusion as selflessness by these parameters?




That's what I hope came out of my last post.

---

There is a lot of confusion in this thread, mainly in due to the part I think, that we do not understand what the self actually is. We keep thinking in terms of I and them.

Mushroomtrip has realized that selflessness is impossible. Even when we seemingly offer ourselves to the world, we have still gotten something in return. A sense of doing the right thing. We can't be selfless or selfish because we are the world. When we help others, we help ourselves.

That's my current position, it could change, maybe...? :hippie:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7675319 - 11/24/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Right on, I miss read.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7676193 - 11/24/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Certain "selfish" mechanisms are being blamed here for enticing love.

There's the desire to be loved in return. There's the desire to to good and feel good according to ones value system.

And this is all true. But there is other love that is indeed selfless.

For instance there are moments of compassion, or mercy, where you would instinctively reach out and have a desire to help, with no regard for your reward or what the person thinks or will think of you.

For instance someone is about to get hit by a car, so you run quick to save them, feeling danger for that person. It's an immediate response that brings out unpremeditated compassion for that person.

But it's not limited to momentary acts of compassion either. For instance, taking care of a small animal that's not very intelligent a pet insect for instance or perhaps even a mouse. You want to take care of it and don't want it to be in pain for it's sake. The animal isn't smart enough to give you thanks and you don't know if it will ever be able to, but you feed it and care for it and feel worried for it when it's in the way of danger.

There is also someone you love so very much, that they cause you to love them so much that you love them more than your own life.

And there is someone you care about so much that you die for them.

Someone you love so much, they are your heart to you. That is pure love.

There is selfless love, and it's a beautiful thing. It doesn't mean though, that other types of motivations for loving someone can't be going on also. They are all natural functions of a healthy person.


Edited by jonathan_206 (11/24/07 09:44 PM)


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7676246 - 11/24/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with most of what you said, but i would add a caveat.

Compassion with discretion.

What if someone sends a email describing so and so is in desparate need of money for an operation, and you respond without thinking, letting the natural function overide common sense. People have been conned like this, con men feeding on peoples gulliblity.


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: shakercee]
    #7676374 - 11/24/07 11:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What if someone sends a email describing so and so is in desparate need of money for an operation, and you respond without thinking, letting the natural function overide common sense. People have been conned like this, con men feeding on peoples gulliblity.




It's true. We must have discretion. But there are also times when we should put our safety on the line, just as you might wish for someone else.


I would also like to add, that the bible commands us to love selflessly. I don't think many people think about it, but to love someone else as your own life annuls any selfishness you might possibly have. How can you be selfish for anything when you love him just as much as you love yourself?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7680163 - 11/25/07 11:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:

This all seems non-sequitur.




No it doesn't. There is a difference between playing a game and living life. There are no consequences to the manner in which on plays a game, there are consequences in the manner in which one lives life. Therefore, the strategy one may choose when playing the "prisoner's dilemma" will likely be different than the strategy chosen in an authentic situation.




I gave you a situation were rational self-interest resulted in both individuals achieving less than they could have if they acted altruistically. Imagining a different situation in which rational self-interest leads to a positive outcome for both members does not refute that there are a number of situations in which rational self-interest creates negative consequences for one or more individuals.

Lets examine the flaws you saw in the Prisoner's dilemma:

Quote:

The first is that the prisoners are not in communication




I do not see how this is a flaw. When questioning prisoners it is routine to not allow them to communicate with others involved in the same crime.

Quote:

The second is that anyone with half a brain knows never to trust a cop, and would know that it is never in thier best interest to rat.




I can think of many situations where it would be in ones self-interest to rat.

Quote:

Being a weak little rat would damage one's social relationships, so even if they didn't end up in the slammer they would come home to nothing but animosity and distrust which, depending on the severity of the friend's punishment, would cause them to have lost all social support.




First, this is assuming one's friends would know that one ratted. Secondly, I personally know a number of people that have been police informants and none of them have experienced what you describe here.

Quote:

Also, people playing this game don't have any real stakes, it's a game.




The game is just an illustration.


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7680819 - 11/26/07 07:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with MushroomTrip.


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7681256 - 11/26/07 10:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Being self-centred and caring for others are not mutually exclusive orientations. To requote the quote I already posted: "Let everyone understand this and 'each for himself' taken to its ultimate conclusion will be transformed into 'all for each.'"




i think you've touched on a key point here.
people go around preaching "Service To Others vs. Service To Self" as though you should just forget about yourself. imo this is a dreadful mistake. often one can create more harm than good by constantly "serving others" if they have not first come to terms with, and have a healthy relationship with the self.
the idea of Service to Others becomes a mask, a quick fix in order to feel that one is doing good when it is mainly an excuse to ignore one's own inner conflict.

we think of all kinds of feel-good ways to "help" other people, but it takes a really keen sense to know how to best help another in a way that will have a positive long-term impact. we like to envision "help" as always being nice and coddling the other's feelings, when in fact sometimes the most effective assistance comes in the form of telling someone what they don't want to hear. sometimes the best help is to do nothing and allow a person to figure shit out for themselves.


Edited by Clean (11/26/07 10:35 AM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: Clean]
    #7681352 - 11/26/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you, Clean! You understood and elaborated what I was getting at, and put it in terms people might be a bit more receptive to. :wink:

I used to be the most self-sacrificial neurotic freakshow ever, and then I realized that it wasn't shameful to take care of myself, and in fact the only way I could ever help anyone else was to get myself together and be strong and healthy. That is the number one task all of us are faced with. We can't help anyone else unless we love and help ourselves primarily. We aren't even capable of knowing what help is until we treat ourselves to it.


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Offlinecube talk
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7681355 - 11/26/07 11:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I hardly ever recieve anything out of a social interaction. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that man needs some sort of interaction because without it.. lifes pretty tasteless


--------------------


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7681389 - 11/26/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well you're welcome :laugh:  always a pleasure.

i've been chewing on this issue for a couple years now ever since i was introduced to the service to self / service to others paradigm that is all the rage in "new agey" literature.  i eventually came to this conclusion we are talking about. 
you will not find too many "channelers" and spiritual gurus saying this because it is not as happy and rainbow filled as our ideas of what it means to be in service to others.  encouraging people to come to terms with their inner demons is not a good way to sell books and tickets to weekend seminars.


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Invisiblemachination
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Re: Social Interaction [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7683451 - 11/26/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i suppose its all a matter of perception is a nice way of how id describe what id describe as a predicament, but perhaps thereis no struggle


--------------------
"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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