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Offlineyepyepyep
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The fridge to initiate pinning debate
    #7664143 - 11/21/07 06:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hello,

How many of you have cold shocked in the fridge and received results?

The reason I ask this is because (respectfully) I observe a lot of people addressing this issue by quoting RR, that Cubensis doesn't need it.  Now that is fair enough, however I suspect there are many of us who have done it and been happy with results afterwards. 

Before I open up the thread to comments, I want to remind you that I'm fully aware of the fact that it is not necessary.  However, I believe that it is effective when things are not going well.  I also believe that most, if not all who have tried it have had success and that the people giving the advice either didn't need it or have never done it.

Personally I think that the attitude here of discouragement is over the top as there is more enough personal experience to suggest that it has its merits.  I know that we're on dangerous grounds of getting argumentative in this thread so lets keep it civil, it is a friendly debate :smile:

Just to relay my personal experience.  Having been away from here for a few years I observed the low opinion of it and decided not to use it - despite the fact I have done it with success many times.  I had casings very much making their way to overlay.  In the end I decided to disregard popular opinion and put them in the fridge. Sure enough, yet again this made all the difference.

I'm also quite aware that it could be a simple change of climate that enthuses the pinning, I'm not all that concerned over the technicalities of why/how it works.  I just assert that in difficult cases it seems to have positive effects.

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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: yepyepyep]
    #7664415 - 11/21/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Cold shocking does do anything to cubes. It helps because pinning is initiated when the temps drop. You fridge is colder then your room (hopefully) thus pinning can begin.


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Offlineyepyepyep
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #7664652 - 11/21/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
Cold shocking does do anything to cubes. It helps because pinning is initiated when the temps drop. You fridge is colder then your room (hopefully) thus pinning can begin.




With respect, I've seen a lot of this type of post here and its exactly what I'm talking about. I feel people are being misled here. How can a new grower read those first two sentences and not see a contradiction ?

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Offlineshroom_ninja
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: yepyepyep]
    #7664683 - 11/21/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'll give it a shot with a few cakes, why not.

What's the common amount of time you "shock" them for, overnight?

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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7664785 - 11/21/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm also quite aware that it could be a simple change of climate that enthuses the pinning,




That would be my guess. Who knows... Maybe, your experience is just anecdotal? I don't have the answer.

Edited by thedefone (11/21/07 08:48 PM)

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OfflineCaribou_Lou
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: thedefone]
    #7664822 - 11/21/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm pretty sure cold shocking just delays the process, maybe a few hours would be beneficial but it seems like anything more would only do bad.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7664844 - 11/21/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Often, a grower puts a tray in the refrigerator, and a few days later gets pins. Thus, the connection is made that the drop in temperatures caused the pinning. It makes sense right?

However, what if he had a tray that he exposed to a ten degree temperature rise and a few days later he got pins? Could he not make the same case that the increase in temperature caused the pinning? In fact, this is what happens in nature. A summer rain(thunderstorm) comes, which 'dunks' the substrate, and then when the sun comes out, the mushrooms pop up very fast, often in 80's and 90's degree temperature. One could make a very good case that in nature, it's the increase in temperature that stimulates the pinset. It's a survival mechanism. They need to spread spores before the mycelium dries out again.

I've done both of the above scenarios dozens, if not hundreds of times to get to the bottom of this. That's the reason I say what I do that temperature drop does not play a part in the pinning strategy of tropical species. In fact, some of the best pinsets came when fruiting conditions were five degrees or more warmer than colonization temperature.

Cold shocking is the signal that fall fruiting mycelium needs to begin producing fruits. Shiitake, P cyanescens, p nameko, etc., to name a few require a cold shock to fruit. Cubensis, H ulmarium, Pan Cyanescens, etc., do not require a cold shock.

The above is not to discourage experimenting in any way. However, get your ducks in a row, and have many duplicate projects made exactly the same way, and spawned, colonized, cased, etc., exactly the same way, and then cold shock some, and increase temps on others. Keep controls that fruit in exactly the temperature they colonize in.

From my experience, if you do the above, your results will vary. Sometimes the cold shocked tray will fruit sooner, but other times later, often much later. Ditto for the other parameters. This is what has led me to my conclusions. The other pinning triggers of full colonization, increased air exchange, and near 100% humidity far outweigh temperature considerations. Good luck to all. Experimenting is how we learn.
RR


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Offlineyepyepyep
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: Caribou_Lou]
    #7664846 - 11/21/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Caribou_Lou said:
I'm pretty sure cold shocking just delays the process, maybe a few hours would be beneficial but it seems like anything more would only do bad.




What makes you pretty sure?

From my experience, in a situation where a casing is being stubborn it has time and time again worked.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: yepyepyep]
    #7664915 - 11/21/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yepyepyep, it's important to define what you mean by cold shocking. Are you talking a one week drop in temperatures, or dunking in the refrigerator overnight? In my use of the terms, the former is cold shocking, while the latter is just good practice, which hydrates the substrate in the relative safety of cooler temperatures to keep contaminants at bay.
RR


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Offlineyepyepyep
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7665024 - 11/21/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Often, a grower puts a tray in the refrigerator, and a few days later gets pins. Thus, the connection is made that the drop in temperatures caused the pinning. It makes sense right?

However, what if he had a tray that he exposed to a ten degree temperature rise and a few days later he got pins? Could he not make the same case that the increase in temperature caused the pinning? In fact, this is what happens in nature. A summer rain(thunderstorm) comes, which 'dunks' the substrate, and then when the sun comes out, the mushrooms pop up very fast, often in 80's and 90's degree temperature. One could make a very good case that in nature, it's the increase in temperature that stimulates the pinset. It's a survival mechanism. They need to spread spores before the mycelium dries out again.

I've done both of the above scenarios dozens, if not hundreds of times to get to the bottom of this. That's the reason I say what I do that temperature drop does not play a part in the pinning strategy of tropical species. In fact, some of the best pinsets came when fruiting conditions were five degrees or more warmer than colonization temperature.

Cold shocking is the signal that fall fruiting mycelium needs to begin producing fruits. Shiitake, P cyanescens, p nameko, etc., to name a few require a cold shock to fruit. Cubensis, H ulmarium, Pan Cyanescens, etc., do not require a cold shock.

The above is not to discourage experimenting in any way. However, get your ducks in a row, and have many duplicate projects made exactly the same way, and spawned, colonized, cased, etc., exactly the same way, and then cold shock some, and increase temps on others. Keep controls that fruit in exactly the temperature they colonize in.

From my experience, if you do the above, your results will vary. Sometimes the cold shocked tray will fruit sooner, but other times later, often much later. Ditto for the other parameters. This is what has led me to my conclusions. The other pinning triggers of full colonization, increased air exchange, and near 100% humidity far outweigh temperature considerations. Good luck to all. Experimenting is how we learn.
RR




Thanks, I really appreciate what you're saying. I'm careful here to not overextend myself - I really only see cold shocking as a possible solution to growers difficulties in getting pins. I do not necessarily see it as something that should be integrated into regular pinning strategy. I have only used it when the situation dictated the need for quick change to a situation that is fast approaching overlay.

As I've pointed out before, the overall vibe I get here is that many people have mistakenly taken on board that "it doesn't work" when in fact, in many situations it does. It does not surprise me to hear that an increase in temperature may do the same thing. The logic is pretty sound, a change in environment enthuses a survival response.

I wish I had the means to do more testing but I would be interested to see the results of situations where overlay is approaching and different methods are tested. I don't feel that there is enough point to doing it if you already have ideal terrarium conditions as I would imagine that cold shocking could rarely be as fast as naturally occurring pinning. My logic is that it is an aid to a flawed situation, nothing more. I think that the popular opinion here was generally this a few years back but things have somewhat taken a decline (opinions that is) in recent times.

Of course, solving the root issue of the terrarium environment is the most important part, I personally think that whilst that is being fixed there is no harm (and certainly possible benefits) from inducing a climate change for a few hours. Sterility of course addressed appropriately. Given that it seems to work sometimes it would make sense that people would not be giving advice in this forum to the contrary (as I say, I have read numerous posts from people saying that it flat out doesn't work).

Thanks for posting. I fully agree with what you're saying - I only assert that people are taking your advice to mean that it does not work rather than the truth which is something more along the lines of "it might".

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Offlineyepyepyep
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7665034 - 11/21/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
yepyepyep, it's important to define what you mean by cold shocking. Are you talking a one week drop in temperatures, or dunking in the refrigerator overnight? In my use of the terms, the former is cold shocking, while the latter is just good practice, which hydrates the substrate in the relative safety of cooler temperatures to keep contaminants at bay.
RR




Thanks Roger, I would class what I'm talking about as taking an overlaying/stubborn casing tray and putting it in a fridge for 0-24 hours. No experience with cakes.

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: yepyepyep]
    #7665123 - 11/21/07 10:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It seems reasonable to believe a slight cold shock might be beneficial to cubes, i don't think anything as much as a fridge is hardly neccesary

when cubes pin in the wild might be a strong indicator
if primordia pins form in the early morning after the storm (before the sun rises) then one might assume that the temp drop during the night + the water induced pinning

if they form after the sun rises, one might assume it's likely the rise in temp is responsible

most certainly though, nothing induces pinning like a dunk
water is very important


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InvisibleJewelessCaesar
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: anarchOi]
    #7665607 - 11/22/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
It seems reasonable to believe a slight cold shock might be beneficial to cubes, i don't think anything as much as a fridge is hardly neccesary

when cubes pin in the wild might be a strong indicator
if primordia pins form in the early morning after the storm (before the sun rises) then one might assume that the temp drop during the night + the water induced pinning

if they form after the sun rises, one might assume it's likely the rise in temp is responsible

most certainly though, nothing induces pinning like a dunk
water is very important




I agree, I started six jars. Two have made it, WBS. I have one in my FC after a 24 hour dunk and one is still colonizing. But from what I've read and seen, dunking is the way to go. :peace: Lonnie


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OfflineNibin
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: yepyepyep]
    #7665644 - 11/22/07 03:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

yepyepyep said:

Thanks Roger, I would class what I'm talking about as taking an overlaying/stubborn casing tray and putting it in a fridge for 0-24 hours. No experience with cakes.




My 2 cents

Maybe, all this time in the fridge achieves in not to "cold shock" the mycelium into fruiting, but it just slows down the growth of the mycelia (which is why we can store jars in the fridge for months).

This slowdown is enough that the mycelium stops colonizing the casing (and causing overlay) for a couple of days which gives it enough time to initiate pinning.

So the cold isn't an actual signal to fruit for the cubes (because they are tropical, etc) but it does slow it down enough to prevent the overlay.


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Offlineyepyepyep
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: Nibin]
    #7665764 - 11/22/07 05:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
Quote:

yepyepyep said:

Thanks Roger, I would class what I'm talking about as taking an overlaying/stubborn casing tray and putting it in a fridge for 0-24 hours. No experience with cakes.




My 2 cents

Maybe, all this time in the fridge achieves in not to "cold shock" the mycelium into fruiting, but it just slows down the growth of the mycelia (which is why we can store jars in the fridge for months).

This slowdown is enough that the mycelium stops colonizing the casing (and causing overlay) for a couple of days which gives it enough time to initiate pinning.

So the cold isn't an actual signal to fruit for the cubes (because they are tropical, etc) but it does slow it down enough to prevent the overlay.




The cold is one way to signal to the mycelium that a hostile environment may be coming and that it should pin to spread its spores now. As roger has said, you can do it increasing the temperature.

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OfflineNibin
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: yepyepyep]
    #7665796 - 11/22/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That is how "cold loving" mushrooms respond to cold, but this does not apply to mushrooms from warmer climates.

The reason that the cold helps prevent overlay must be for another reason, also caused by that cold spell in the fridge


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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: Nibin]
    #7665803 - 11/22/07 06:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Have you read this thread??

This should help you understand overlay and how to prevent it

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5631638


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7666220 - 11/22/07 09:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I store master slants in the refrigerator for years at a time. I've never had one single invitro mushroom from a tropical species ever form in a slant.

Cause and effect can be tricky sometimes. For example, if you get drunk as snot and drive, you're more likely to get in a car accident. However, what if you have a cup of coffee in the morning and then get in an accident while sober? Did the coffee cause the accident, or was it just 'your time'? My experience says a tray that fruits after being put in the refrigerator was about to fruit anyway. The fridge probably delayed it by a day or so in fact.

There used to be a mindset that mycelium could compare to weed, where (in the case of weed) changing the photo period would signal a change from vegetative growth to flowering. It was thought that a temp drop would change mycelium from vegetative growth to fruiting. However, after many side-by-side tests, I've personally ruled out such a phenomena, so I pass that info along. Feel free to experiment to either prove or disprove the above. In no way do I consider my experiences the last word on the subject. Mushroom cultivation, especially when compared to crop farming, is in its infancy and we're still learning.
RR


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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7667587 - 11/22/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

well said RR

it seems unlikely that a temp change is going to inniate pinning in a tropical species

ah i've got many experiments i want to do now
fortunately i have a shitload of cakes that i noc'd up with an EQ clone LC


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Re: The fridge to initiate pinning debate [Re: anarchOi]
    #7667861 - 11/22/07 06:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yikes. I just realized I put "Cold shocking does do anything to cubes." It should be doesnt.


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