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Offlinesubconsciousness
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Polytheism versus monotheism
    #7665188 - 11/21/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I've always wondered: what would Western civilization be like today if it had remained pagan (polytheistic)? I recently read a thought-provoking book called "God against the Gods" about how monotheism became the dominant form of religion in Europe. I forget the author's name, but he makes a compelling case that polytheism is objectively more tolerant of other belief systems than monotheism.

Think about it: if you accept the idea that there is more than one god, then you won't have much of a problem with your neighbor worshiping a different deity. The pagans of ancient Rome were perfectly willing to worship foreign deities, such as those from Egypt for example.

However, I personally don't advocate returning to polytheism; I think the whole idea of multiple deities is far fetched, to say the least. However, I wouldn't shed a single tear if both Islam and Christianity vanished from the face of the Earth. I see these two religions as going to really clash in the coming century--it won't be pretty, to say the least. Each religion absolutely insists that it has a monopoly on divine truth, and that in itself is dangerous.

What do you guys think?


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times."
--Bill Hicks

"Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power."
--P.J. O'Rourke


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7665234 - 11/21/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i don't really know myself

i read a book called "the gift of the jews" ... argues that monotheism differs from polytheism in that it departs from an existential world view

early jewish people were much more acceptant of the idea that the world can be changed according to what we do today, when the dominant world view at the time was that everything was cyclical and controlled by the gods

i think that we owe a lot to monotheistic religions, but they are becoming more and more of an anachronism today

but if they were to suddenly disappear would the world be better off? or would we find some other reason to start wars and persecute others?


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Offlinesubconsciousness
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7665256 - 11/21/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Don't get me wrong: there are positive aspects of monotheistic religions, especially Judaism. There are over 2,000 references in the Bible to helping the poor. The whole concept of Tikkun Olam, "to mend the world" is something I find great about monotheism. But that doesn't mean that we have to be monotheists to find value in social justice, or polytheists to appreciate the value of tolerating other belief systems.

I think we can learn from both systems. We can take the best from polytheism and monotheism without ascribing to either. Wars and strife would not disappear if Islam and Christianity were to die out tomorrow; I'm not saying that the absence of these religions would make the world a utopia.

But I see a major conflict with Islam and Christianity in the future.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times."
--Bill Hicks

"Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power."
--P.J. O'Rourke


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7665288 - 11/22/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Monothesism - 100% of religious irrationality focused on one god.

Polytheism: - 100% of religious irrationilty divided equally among many gods. Example: belief in five gods = 20% irrationality quotient towards each one.

End result: same/same.

That being said, if another poster argues there is no limit to irrationality, I would tend to agree.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7665289 - 11/22/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think you are probably right


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Offlinesubconsciousness
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7665336 - 11/22/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not saying that monotheism and polytheism are entirely rational belief systems. I'm just trying to determine the merits of one over the other.

Personally, I just think that superimposing beliefs upon reality is a futile endeavor. That forces you to pigeonhole reality into your belief system. I think you should just experience reality openly, without any preconceived notions, and go from there.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times."
--Bill Hicks

"Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power."
--P.J. O'Rourke


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7666748 - 11/22/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What I find most interesting about polytheist religions is that they don't think in such black & white terms about good and evil. There are gods who have both positive and negative attributes, and often there are ambiguities about the two.

Another thing I find interesting is that even supposedly monotheistic religions maintain aspects of polytheism. For example, saints and angels take on the roles that gods took in other religions. Then in Christianity you have the trinity, and in Kabbalah you have the Tree of Life. If these religions were more open-minded, they might see the gods of other faiths as different forms of the angels they are familiar with. Instead, they often condemn them as either false gods or as demons.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7667880 - 11/22/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think you're on to something about the difference between what Mircea Eliade called "The Myth of the Eternal return" (which is also the title of one of his books), and Sacred Time of monotheistic faiths. In the former, all of nature abides by cyclic processes wherein each of those processes were named as gods and goddesses. A Neopagan friend of ours never wanted to dose on mushrooms beyond the giggle phase. Her ego is tied to the four elements, and transcendence of the world is a fearful thing to her. She is content to be pantheistic, seeing cycles within cycles (Earth's rotations and revolutions; birth to death, elements recycled; circulation of the blood, etc.). And, as identifying with matter, but not consciousness, she sees herself as animate matter which simply returns to the Earth at death.

With Sacred Time which is linear, beginning ex nihilo, (not really out of 'nothing' but emanating from a higher dimension through the process of 'creation'), there is an end as well. Whether the entire universe is destined to become transformed back into the Godhead whence it emerged (as Teilhard de Chardin theorized and named "The Omega Point"), or whether only self-aware beings like some humans will be transformed back into the Godhead are interesting speculations. If cosmological speculations about entropy overtaking the expanding universe is right, will time run backwards as the universe reverses its expansion and begins to contract? Would that nullify the teleology of 'universal transubstantiation' of the universe into the Godhead?
Anyway, there are differences in people's self-identity and probably their social and political perceptions as well.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7667895 - 11/22/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Personally, I just think that superimposing beliefs upon reality is a futile endeavor. That forces you to pigeonhole reality into your belief system. I think you should just experience reality openly, without any preconceived notions, and go from there.





Yeah, but then how can people go to war? :confused:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7668079 - 11/22/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
identifying with matter, but not consciousness, she sees herself as animate matter which simply returns to the Earth at death.





Do you think it is contradictory to identify with both matter and consciousness? One major thing I get out of the whole gnostic thing is the perspective that matter is consciousness reflecting itself. I don't see them as mutually exclusive, but rather one and the same.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7668305 - 11/22/07 09:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Materialistic people versus spiritual people. It depends on the frame of reference. I begin with Consciousness as the a priori.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7668335 - 11/22/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't see why there has to be a split. It seems a little too Cartesian for my tastes. "The ghost in the machine" was never a paradigm I could get behind.


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Offlinesubconsciousness
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7668368 - 11/22/07 10:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
What I find most interesting about polytheist religions is that they don't think in such black & white terms about good and evil. There are gods who have both positive and negative attributes, and often there are ambiguities about the two.

Another thing I find interesting is that even supposedly monotheistic religions maintain aspects of polytheism. For example, saints and angels take on the roles that gods took in other religions. Then in Christianity you have the trinity, and in Kabbalah you have the Tree of Life. If these religions were more open-minded, they might see the gods of other faiths as different forms of the angels they are familiar with. Instead, they often condemn them as either false gods or as demons.




Roman Catholicism seems almost like polytheism to me. I was raised Catholic, and I don't ever remember praying to God directly. For example, if I was in a hopeless situation, I would pray to St. Jude (the patron saint of hopeless causes) or if I lost my car keys, I would pray to St. Anthony (the patron saint of lost things) or if I was in a bout of mental illness, I would direct my prayers to St. Dymphna (the patron saint of mental disorders and illnesses). Jesus never figured into the equation.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times."
--Bill Hicks

"Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power."
--P.J. O'Rourke


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7669587 - 11/23/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It is not that dualistic paradigm. It is a matter of Consciousness being the eternal substratum of all existence, and like massive bodies in space which create gravitation, matter seems to cause local Consciousness to be drawn into itself with a false identity occurring as a result. We mostly are deceived into identifying what we are with our bodies and then the more subtle aspects: sensations, emotions and thoughts. These are all modes of Consciousness, not modes of matter.

We dream and our dream ego responds to dream monsters with tremendous emotion. The dream monster is as real as our dream ego who fears it. Then we awaken to another level and we see the relative unreality of both the dream monster and our dream ego from the perspective of our waking ego. The world is real to our waking ego and it is not until we Awaken to Superconsciousness that we can see the same kind of relative relation of the 'real' world and our waking ego from yet a higher perspective. All of this is about Consciousness, not matter.

Moreover, going back to the beginning of space-time, creation emerged from a Singularity - a dimensionless point from...from...Well, the religious person says 'from God.' I do not have a problem with the word. 'God' doesn't explain anything of the Mystery behind existence, it merely designates the Mystery. But God, Great Spirit, Spirit - is an archaic term for Consciousness. Consciousness in the Transcendent sense as God is the ultimate basis for all consciousness including our own. Each organism is, to me, a transmitter allowing more and more Transcendental Consciousness to become Self-Consciousness through material organisms like human beings. But, from the perspective of Transcendental Consciousness, the entire material universe is no more substantial than our dreams are to us when we awaken. So, I am defining Ultimate Reality from the standpoint of Ultimate Reality, not from my human standpoint. There is then, only Consciousness because from the perspective of Eternal Consciousness, even a solar system is as ephemeral as a cloud is to us. There is no ultimate dualism, there is only ONE. We and everything in existence is no more than a dream in the Divine Mind.

Tracing the atoms of our body back to the sun in which they were forged, and beyond that to the birth of the sun from particles more simple than hydrogen atoms, we can trace subatomic particles back to their origins in the cooling energies of the Big Bang. At that moment, the laws of physics didn't yet exist because space-time didn't yet exist, but as the 'seed' of the Singularity began to 'blossom' into space-time Infinite Consciousness, paradoxically, is present in every finite point of space-time, guiding the development of the universe as DNA guides the biological development of molecules into organelles of cells and cells into organs and on and on in The Great Chain of Being, from quarks to quasars. Religiously speaking, this is the Immanence of God, the Presence of Eternal Mind outside of its Transcendent Essence - the Godhead. The Great Chain of Being - Intelligent Design.

Or so I imagine it to be! :wink:


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/23/07 10:05 AM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7669802 - 11/23/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, I see where you're coming from. In that case, what is matter? Extra, useless garbage? Like I said, I view matter as consciousness' reflection, that at times is unaware of itself in that aspect. For me, matter is not a distraction or an illusion, but rather the One cast in various forms. The journey,then, is not to deny or 'transcend' matter, but to recognize this oneness in a way that is both immanent and transcendent.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7671434 - 11/23/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I rather agree with you, but non-dualism is a transcendental condition. It is experiencing the Buddhist saying: "Samsara is Nirvana, Nirvana is Samsara."
I am told that I have a lot of 'air' in my chart, astrologically speaking. I tend towards flights from the more obvious physical and social spheres and live, as intraverted intuitive thinking types do, more in the inner world of ideas and intuition. This proclivity is expressed in my writing style and as a consequence of being ready to die consciously, it looks like I'm always ready to drop what I'm doing, drop the mind-body, and soar.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7671710 - 11/23/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I Think about it: if you accept the idea that there is more than one god, then you won't have much of a problem with your neighbor worshiping a different deity. The pagans of ancient Rome were perfectly willing to worship foreign deities, such as those from Egypt for example.




It doesn't work out to be so well. When ancient polytheistic religions were popular, they still found "reasons" to hate each other.

subconsciousness:

Quote:

Roman Catholicism seems almost like polytheism to me. I was raised Catholic, and I don't ever remember praying to God directly. For example, if I was in a hopeless situation, I would pray to St. Jude (the patron saint of hopeless causes) or if I lost my car keys, I would pray to St. Anthony (the patron saint of lost things) or if I was in a bout of mental illness, I would direct my prayers to St. Dymphna (the patron saint of mental disorders and illnesses). Jesus never figured into the equation.




Roman catholicism IS polytheism. When the roman catholic church simply assimilated pagan deities into the church under altered names. It's never been Christianity. Their Christ isn't Christ at all, it's the son from the mother/son babylonian fable that is copied all over the world in pagan religion. ninus, krishna,iswari,horus,jupiter,deoius..they're all the same.


markos:

Quote:

If cosmological speculations about entropy overtaking the expanding universe is right, will time run backwards as the universe reverses its expansion and begins to contract?




Apparently not, it's been shown that there's not enough energy for contraction.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7671967 - 11/23/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nothing has been "shown" yet. Dark matter has only recently been 'discovered,' and there seems to be acceleration according to some researchers rather than slowing.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7671983 - 11/23/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Wrong thread :lol:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7672007 - 11/23/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7673084 - 11/24/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
It doesn't work out to be so well. When ancient polytheistic religions were popular, they still found "reasons" to hate each other.



Most of which had nothing to do with religion. Unless of course you can show me an example of a pagan holy war.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7673166 - 11/24/07 01:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:

It doesn't work out to be so well. When ancient polytheistic religions were popular, they still found "reasons" to hate each other.




Maybe true, but there were no "Holy Wars" among pagan polytheists, no killing each other in the name of the god's.

Interesting points about Catholicism, but who's Christ is the True Christ again?

All religions secretly or overtly worship the Heavenly Bodies, there's something more to it me thinks.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: Middleman]
    #7673346 - 11/24/07 02:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It is not true that all religions secretly or overtly worship heavenly bodies. Some religions don't worship anything at all, but rather percieve all beings and forms as kin.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7675176 - 11/24/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

markos:


Quote:

Nothing has been "shown" yet. Dark matter has only recently been 'discovered,' and there seems to be acceleration according to some researchers rather than slowing.




Plenty has been shown.And dark matter has not been discovered. In fact, a recent exploration for dark matter in the milky way came up empty, as I will show. I really feel the need to answer this..

Quote:

Oscillating universe ideas were popularized by atheists like the late Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov solely to avoid the notion of a beginning, with its implications of a Creator. But as shown above, the Laws of Thermodynamics undercut that argument. Even an oscillating universe cannot overcome those laws. Each one of the hypothetical cycles would exhaust more and more usable energy. This means every cycle would be larger and longer than the previous one, so looking back in time there would be smaller and smaller cycles. So the multicycle model could have an infinite future, but can only have a finite past.2

Also, there are many lines of evidence showing that there is far too little mass for gravity to stop expansion and allow cycling in the first place, i.e., the universe is ‘open’. According to the best estimates (even granting old-earth assumptions), the universe still has only about half the mass needed for re-contraction. This includes the combined total of both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos), as well as any possible contribution of neutrinos to total mass.3 Some recent evidence for an ‘open’ universe comes from the number of light-bending ‘gravitational lenses’ in the sky.4 Also, analysis of Type Ia supernovae shows that the universe’s expansion rate is not slowing enough for a closed universe5,6 It seems like there is only 40-80% of the required matter to cause a ‘big crunch’. Incidentally, this low mass is also a major problem for the currently fashionable ‘inflationary’ version of the ‘big bang’ theory, as this predicts a mass density just on the threshold of collapse—a ‘flat’ universe.

Finally, no known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical ‘big crunch’.7 As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics says that the universe oscillates, ‘There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.’ Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that’s the end.8




Quote:


One recent experimental report by Crézé et al. in Astronomy and Astrophysics has concluded that there is no dark matter in the disk of the Milky Way Galaxy.10 This report analyzed the proper motion of stars perpendicular to the galactic disk in a sphere of radius 125 parsecs around the sun. By analysing the distribution of motion for 100 stars, the team was able to analyse the gravitational pull dragging them back towards the galactic disk. In this way, the researchers could deduce the gravitational mass that is ‘practically hypothesis-free and model-free.’11 The experiment has been described as calculating the mass of the Earth from looking at samples of high jumpers and measuring the height they reach.8 They conclude, based essentially on observations, that the local dynamical density is ‘…well below all previous determinations leaving no room for any disk shaped component of dark matter.’11 This report also gives the strong impression that many previous ‘results’ are biased by a model or hypothesis, making one wonder what can really be believed.

The above report could be rightly criticized for being too small of a sample in too small of a volume. However, a Ph.D. thesis by Honc-Anh Pham of the Paris Observatory, analyzed the motion of 10,000 stars in the Milky Way disk, inferring the gravitational forces pulling the stars around. She comes up with a similar result to Crézé et al.:

‘These studies confirm that the dark matter [presumed to be] associated with the galactic disc in fact doesn’t exist.’8




http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i1/milky_way.asp

silversoul:

Quote:

Most of which had nothing to do with religion. Unless of course you can show me an example of a pagan holy war.




middleman:

Quote:

Maybe true, but there were no "Holy Wars" among pagan polytheists, no killing each other in the name of the god's.




This is interesting. You really think no pagan wars have been fought in the name of their gods? No, every single of of them was fought in the name of their gods.

There is definitely evidence. Look at rome. Ceasar deified himself and that was the beginning of the roman empire. They tortured and tried to destroy christians, they persecuted jews, and ran them out of their country.

Nebuchadnezzar forced his subjects to worship
agraven image, and those who didn't were persecuted. That empire ruled over a large portion of the known world.

In babylon they were crushed under cruel dictatorship with deified king and queen that invaded a significant portion of the known world.

In Egypt there was also "deified" rulers who used their power against those who opposed them and strived to conquer.

The native americans had wars, assuradely in the name of their gods.

There are tribes in africa that still fight in the name of their gods.

The history of pagan warfare is much more vast than that of Christianity, and even if their goal was power or greed then it was fought in the name of their gods nonetheless. They have always used their gods as justification to do wrong. This points out a major difference between the judean god and the pagan gods. Ancient pagan gods were imperfect. They were often violent or greedy or selfish and had many human characteristics or weaknesses, but the Christian god has always been perfect.

I see there is so much propoganda about this it's rediculous and totally untrue. Even if this were an attack against all religion, it's a total farce. The wars that have been spawned out of darwinian evolution in marxism and nazism have made this past century the most destructive period in the history of mankind.

And some people love to make it sound as if monotheistic religion is inherently doministic. What nonsense. Christianity is one of the few or perhaps even only religion that teaches it's adherents to not make war or battle or to even attack in defense. It's incredibly ironic.

Quote:

All religions secretly or overtly worship the Heavenly Bodies, there's something more to it me thinks.




The Hebrews did not neither does Christianiy. However, there are constellations, and monuments on earth that have been made in testament to God.

Quote:


Some religions don't worship anything at all, but rather percieve all beings and forms as kin.




I think every religion worships something.


Edited by jonathan_206 (11/24/07 04:48 PM)


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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7675220 - 11/24/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7675228 - 11/24/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This is interesting. You really think no pagan wars have been fought in the name of their gods? No, every single of of them was fought in the name of their gods.

There is definitely evidence. Look at rome. Ceasar deified himself and that was the beginning of the roman empire. They tortured and tried to destroy christians, they persecuted jews, and ran them out of their country.

Nebuchadnezzar forced his subjects to worship graven images, and those who didn't were persecuted. That empire ruled over a large portion of the known world.

In babylon they were crushed under cruel dictatorship with deified king and queen that invaded a significant portion of the known world.

In Egypt there was also "deified" rulers who used their power against those who opposed them and strived to conquer.



These are all cases of polytheistic religions oppressing monotheistic ones, and in their eyes, it had more to do with patriotism than with religion. When Christians refused to bow to the emperor, it was not seen as blasphemy, but rather treason. It was only in the blending of politics and religion that intolerance came about. People were allowed to worship whatever other gods they wanted, as long as they paid tribute to the emperor.

Quote:

The native americans had wars, assuradely in the name of their gods.



And I assure you I don't know what you're talking about. Examples, please.

Quote:

There are tribes in africa that still fight in the name of their gods.



Again, show me. I realize tribes are fighting today, but I have yet to see evidence that their fighting is over religion rather than land and political power. Also, are you aware that the vast majority of Africans today are either Christian or Muslim?

Quote:


The history of pagan warfare is much more vast than that of Christianity, and even if their goal was power or greed then it was fought in the name of their gods nonetheless. They have always used their gods as justification to do wrong. This points out a major difference between the judean god and the pagan gods. Ancient pagan gods were imperfect. They were often violent or greedy or selfish and had many human characteristics or weaknesses, but the Christian god has always been perfect.

I see there is so much propoganda about this it's rediculous and totally untrue. Even if this were an attack against all religion, it's a total farce. The wars that have been spawned out of darwinian evolution in marxism and nazism have made this past century the most destructive period in the history of mankind.

And some people love to make it sound as if monotheistic religion is inherently doministic. What nonsense. Christianity is one of the few or perhaps even only religion that teaches it's adherents to not make war or battle or to even attack in defense. It's incredibly ironic.



The vast majority of wars throughout history, whether the fighting powers were pagan, Christian, muslim, etc., have not been about religion. They have mostly been about money, land, resources, and power. They might have justified their fight by claiming that God or the gods were on their side, but the justification was not the motivation.


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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7675273 - 11/24/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Dark matter is crucial to the Big Bang model of cosmology..




Which is why they feel so compelled to spout such typical propoganda, saying something is this or is that, when it's not proven at all.
Quote:


he dark matter component has vastly more mass than the "visible" component of the universe.[1]




Propoganda.It's in evolutionary works constantly.


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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7675435 - 11/24/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Big Bang = "Fiat Lux"


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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7675905 - 11/24/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:


Quote:
This is interesting. You really think no pagan wars have been fought in the name of their gods? No, every single of of them was fought in the name of their gods.

There is definitely evidence. Look at rome. Caesar deified himself and that was the beginning of the roman empire. They tortured and tried to destroy christians, they persecuted Jews, and ran them out of their country.

Nebuchadnezzar forced his subjects to worship a graven image, and those who didn't were persecuted. That empire ruled over a large portion of the known world.

In babylon they were crushed under cruel dictatorship with deified king and queen that invaded a significant portion of the known world.

In Egypt there was also "deified" rulers who used their power against those who opposed them and strived to conquer.





These are all cases of polytheistic religions oppressing monotheistic ones, and in their eyes, it had more to do with patriotism than with religion. When Christians refused to bow to the emperor, it was not seen as blasphemy, but rather treason. It was only in the blending of politics and religion that intolerance came about. People were allowed to worship whatever other gods they wanted, as long as they paid tribute to the emperor.




No way! They oppressed their own people and every nation they conquered. That's not right at all.
And you're wrong about the emperor worship. Christians would have gladly bowed before him as king. The bible teaches to honor the king. But he made himself more than that. That's what started the roman empire!

Time for some history.

Quote:

The multi billionaire power behind augustus Caius maecenas commissioned virgil to write the aenid to fashion rome into an imperial monarchy for which it's citizens would gladly sacrifice their lives.

The fasces, from which perhaps came the word fascism was an axe head whose handle is a bundle of rods tightly strapped together by a red sinew. It sybolizes the ordering of priestly functions into a single infallible sovereign, a autocrat who could require life and limb of his subjects. If the fasces was entwined with laurel like the pair on the wall of the us. house of representatives, it signifies caesarean imperial power. The romans called this infallible sovereign pontifix maximus "supreme bridge builder". No roman was called by this name until the title was given to julias caesar in 48 b.c. Todays pontifex maximus is pope benedict.

The land of the pyramids, egypt is where caesarian rome was inaugurated. By caesarian meaning the empire whose head commands not only affairs of state but those of religion as well. Caesarian rome officially began in alexandria egypt at the temple of jupiter, on the winter solstice- december 25- in the year 48 bc, when a fifty two year old priest of jupiter was declared to be jupiters incarnation, thus "son of god". His name was caius of the family of marias, caius maria. After deification, and occasionally before, caius maria was referred to as 'caesar" a cabalism formed by the letter c for caius attached to "aesar the etruscan word for "god". The god caius. (Suetonius, the first century biographer of the ceasars, suggest that the title was formed from prefixing aesar with the numeral c, meaning hundred, "god of the hundred", or hundreds).

According to scottish theologian alexander hislop, caesar consented to deification in order to inherit the huge kingdom of pergamum. Consisting of most of asia minor (present day turkey), pergamum was bequethed to the roman people in 133 bc by it's king attalus III. But there was a catch: the people of rome had to regard their leader as god.
The pergamenian kings had begun ruling as god when the title of pontifex maximus fled the fall of babylon in 539 bc. In that eventful year, pesian invaders assasinated the babylonian king belshazzar. Just moments prior, belshazzar had seen his assasination prophesied by the famous handwriting on the wall: "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" ( The numberer is numbered"). Ruling as king by divine appointment, belshazzar had profaned the sacred vessels of the israelite temple. This was the unpardonable sin of blasphemy, for which god sent the persians to destroy him.

belshazzars priests were evidently spared. Rather than submit to the persian conquerers, they furtively gathered together all of portable treasures, entitlements, codes, inscriptions, astrology, sacred formulae, and insignia and fled with them northwesterly to pergamum. Since therulers of pergamum were already practicing babylonian religion, they were honored to receive the fugitive babylonian college and their great endowment.

Pergamum, the new residence of pontifex maximus , became a showplace for despotism. The neighboring greeks reflected it's sudden transformation with the myth of midas, the king whose tough turned everything to gold. babylonian ruled endowed pergamum with the worlds greatest medical complex, the asklepion, dedicated to the god of pharmacological healing, asklepios. pergamum became the most important humanist learning center, it's library housing more than 200,00 scrolls. (marc antony would later move these assets to alexandria as a gift to cleopatra. many of them eventually found their way from alexandria to the medici library in florence.)

When attalus III died in 133 b.c., he bequethed all his kingdom's babylonian granduer to the romans. But no emperor was deemed fit to receive it because the roman constitution had never suffered a man to be deified. The bequest lay unclaimed until 48 b.c., when caius maria caesar was declared god almighty in the serapion, alexandras temple of jupiter.

Deification entitled caesar now to assume the title pontifex maximus. To indicate hid infinitely holier status, he took the name "julius". The name was a claim of decent from julius ascanius, the legendary son of legendary aeneas, virgils maritime hero who sailed westward with a band of his trojan fellow-countrymen fleeing the sack of troy by greek marauders. Assisted by the whole heavenly network of mythic deities, aeneas led his followers to sacrifice their individuality for a glorius collective existence that would one day be called "rome".

aeneas was considered the offspring of a union between a human being, anchises, and jupiters wife venus. (when anchises boasted of his intercourse with the goddess, jupiter struck him blind with a thunderbolt. The aenid open with aeneas carrying blind old anchises out of troy on his shoulders.) By taking the name of aeneas' son julias and claiming descent from him as well, ceasar was able to trace his lineage back to the queen of heaven. The divine lineage supposedly flowed through his mother, maia, who was purported to have conceived him without losing her virginity. maia also claimed to have remained a virgin even in childbirth by having her son delivered from the side in a surgical operation that still bears ceasars name.

It is julius ascanius, grandson of venus and claimed anscestor of the original caesar, who inspired "annuit coeptis", the upper motto on the flip side of the great seal of the united states, the phrase which the u.s department of state interprets to mean " god hath favored this undertaking", was spoken by young julius ascanius in the ninth book of virgils aenid.

The scen is a battle ground. The trojans are outnumbered and fearful. Young julius ascanius takes a position in front of his shrinking countrymen. He looks up at an evil giant name remulus, king of the rutulus. remulus mocks the trojans for sending a boy to fight him. While the giant quakes with derisive laughter, julius slips an arrow onto his bowstring and cries towards the heavens:

"almighty jupiter, favor this rebellious undertaking (audacibus adnue coeptis)! each year, I shall bring back to thy temple gifts in my own hands, and place a white bulloock at thy alter!"

jupiter then hisses an arrow from the sky that strikes romulus in the head with such force that it passes clean through his temple. The trojans "raise a cheer and laugh aloud; their hearts rise towards the stars". apollo, from his throne of cloud, shouts the gnostic credo: " by striving so, men reach the stars, dear son of gods and sire of gods to come!"

A story that leaves no doubt as to the identity of the god who favoured the undertaking of the united states. It was a pagan deity, the god of julius ascanius, and not the god of the bible. Surely, if congress had wanted to show that the new nation was underwritten by God, it would have refered to the boy-downs-giant story told in the ot. Who doesn't know David and goliath? But establishing a national government directly on scriptural grounds was not the intent, of the founding fathers. Far more useful to them, and acceptable to the souls they knew would be populating america in good time, were the fabulous vanities of roman religion. These souls required the sacred icons of burgeoning humanity and uninhibited sexual energy, legends that inspired hotblooded heroism and patriotism. Consent to images of this character presumed obedience to the establishment of ancient, stoneheavy, well ordered pyramid hierarchy.

Less than four years after his deification, julius caesar was assasinated by an executive conspiracy. For another four years, civil war raged as two of the assasins brutus and cassius, struggled for control against ceasars immediate successor, a triumvirate comprised of lepidus, marcantony, and caesars adopted son, (his biological grand-nephew), caius octavian capias.

The triumvirate defeated the assassins only to war against each other. Poets lamented tha rome, against whom no sovereign enemy had ever prevailed, was being destroyed by the strength of her own sons.Obligations of every kind dissolved. Class fought against class. A fog of guilt and despair settled in. The poets yearned for escape beyond the worlds borders, to a place of innocence and peace, perhaps to a new order of things. In his book about rome revolution from republic to babylonian autocracy, oxford historian Ronald Syme writes:

" The darker the clouds, the more certain the dawn of redemption. On several theories of cosmic economy it was firmly believed that one world-epoch was passing, another was coming into being. The lore of the etruscans, the calculations of astrologers and the speculations of philosophers might conspire with some plausibility and discover in the comet that appeared after ceasars assassination the sign and herald of a new age. Vague aspirations and magical science were quickly adopted for purposes of propoganda by the rulers of this world. Already coins of the year 43 bc bear symbols of power, fertility, and the golden age."

The most influential and enduring celebration of golden age optimism was virgils prophetic sounding fourth eclogue. This work was addressed to one of virgils chief benefactors, caius asinius pollio, who was consul (roughly equivelent to the office of president) when caius octavian, antony and lepidus were reconciled in 40 bc by the peace of brindisi. Pollio, who represented octavian at the brindisi negotiatons, introduced virgil to caius maecenas, the media mogul of his day. He had risked his fortune supporting julius caesars rise to absolute dictatorship, and he would risk no less to put his caesars adopted son, caius octavian, in the same place. He scouted and subsidized the most talented artists, sculptors, and poets to create a totally new kind of communication. virgil developed a new "civic" literature whose pious rhetorical style gently guided public opinion toward accepting the rule of a deified babylonian autocrat. In writing the fourth eclogue , virgil borrowed heavily from the messianic verses of Isaiah, whose writings were freely accessable through the Jewish rabbis of rome:

Quote:

"Behold, a virgin shall concieve, and bear a son, and call his name 'God with us'...[Isaiah 7:14] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is goven: and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful,Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince OF Peace." [9:6}




Six hundred years after Isaiah, virgil solemnly announced in the fourth eclogue that the prince of peace would be produced by the unrolling of a New World Order (or new order of the ages "novus ordo seclorum"):

" Now returns the golden age of saturn, now appears the immaculate virgin, now descends from heaven a divine nativity. O! Chaste lucina [goddess of maternity], speed the mothers pains, haste the glorious birth, and usher in the reign of they apollo. The counsulship, o pollio, shall lead this glorius advent, and the new world order [ novus order seclorum) shall then begin to roll. Thenceforth whatever
vestige of original sin remains, shall be swept away from the earth forever, and the son of god shall be the prince of peace!"

The billionaire exploited the fourthe eclogue in the media as though it were a divine summons for caesars adopted son octavian to take the throne and begin sweeping the world free of sin. A fabulous resume of octavian was already going around- about how a thunderbolt had blasted the city wall of his birthplace, velitre, just prior to his birth. And about how the priests interpreted this to be jupiters way of saying the future ruler of the world would arise from the spot. And about how the senate, upon hearing this, had decreed that all male babies should be executed. And how octavian was saved by his mother, who pilfered the stone tablet on which the decree was engraved.

octavian's mother was atia of the family of marius, atia maria, a vestal virgin, niece of caius, the man who would become julius caesar. When octavian reached the age of twelve, great-uncle caius became his legal father through adoption. Three years later, in octavians fifteenth year, his adoptive father was deified as julius caesar, pontifex maximus. That's when the propogandists of maecenas got busy promoting the sons divine origins - and about how the child was born september 28, 63 bc in humble circumstances: the butlers pantry at his grandfathers mansion velitre. About how he had been conceived on december 25 by apollo, who came in serpent form and impregnated the virgin atia maria as she lay sleeping on the floor of the apoolonian temple. About how, just prior to the childs advent, the virgin maria had dreamed that her body was scattered to the stars and encompassed the universe. About how her husband, too , had dreamed that from within her shone the bright beams of the sin, which then "rose from between her thighs". About how the toddler octavians head was often being licked by golden solar flames.

The propaganda circulated the story of how the great astrologer theogenes, when told octavians birth sign (capricorn), rose and flung himself at the lads feet. theogenes knew the astrological ruler of capricorn was saturn, whose second golden age was at hand- saturn, the celestio mythical father-god of rome and father of jupiter. octavian, as the reincarnation of jupiter, would be ruled by saturn, the most dictatorial sign in the zodiac, terrible for his restriction, limitation, control, even to the excesses of fornication and cannabalizing of his own children.

In 28 bc, twelve years after the publication of the fourth ecolgue, octavian entered rome triumphantly as the prince of peace. Like julias had done, the new pontifex maximus received a new nad holier name, caesar augustus (" since sanctuaries and all places consecrated by the augers are known as "august'" according to suetonius.). And like julius, he was hailed as " the son of god". Historian alexander del mar describes the universal acceptance of the divine octavian in these excerpts from his landmark exposition of roman political deification, The Worship Of Augustus caesar(1899):

In the firm establishment of the messianic religion and ritual, augustus ascended the sacred throne of his martyred sire and was in turn addressed as the son of god (divi filius), whilst julius was worshipped as the father... This claim and assumption appears in the literature of his age, was engraved upon his monuments and stamped upon his coins..It was universally admitted and accepted throughout the roman empire as valid and legitimate, according to chronology, astrology, prophecy, and tradition... His actual worship as the son of god was enjoined and enforced by the laws of the empire, accepted by the priesthood and practiced by the people... Both de jure and de facto it constituted the fundamental article of the roman imperial and ecclesiastical constitution.

As supreme pontiff of the roman empire, augustus lawfully acquired and excercised authority over all cardinals, priests, curates, monks, nuns, flamens, augers, vestal virgins, temples, alters, shrines, sancturaries and monasteries, over all the religious rites, ceremonies, festivals, holidays, dedications, canonizations, marriages, divorces, adoptions, benefices, wills, burying grounds, fairs, and other ecclesiastical subjects and matters... The common people wore little images of augustus suspended from their necks. Great images nd shrines of the same person were erected in the highways, and resproted to for sanctuary. There wre a thousand such shrines in rome alone.

augustus wore on his head a pontifical mitre surmounted by a latin cross, an engraving of which, taken from a coin of the colonia julia germella, appears in Harduini, de numiis atiquis [1689], plate 1... The images of augustus upon the coins of his own mintage, or that of his vassals, are surrounded with the halo of light which is the pagan indication for divinity, and on the reverse of the coins are displayed the various emblems of pagan religion, such as the mitre, cross,crook, fishes, labarum, and the buddhic or bacchic or dionysian monogram of PX [ the grek chi-rho, " cairo" site of the great pyramid].

The augustan writers furnished materials showing that [ augustus'] incarnation was the issue of a divine father and mortal mother, that the mother was a wife-virgin, that the birth occured in an obscure place, that it was foretold by prophecy or sacred oracle, the it was presaged or accompanied by prodigies of nature, that the divinity of the child was recognied by sages, that the "holy one" exhibited extraordinary signs of precocity and wisdom, that his destruction was sought by the ruling powers, that his miraculous touch was sufficient to cure deformity or disease, that he exhibited a profound humility, that his deification would bring peace on earth, and that he would finally ascend to heaven, there to join the father.

So universally were his divine origin and attributes conceded, that many people, in dying, left their entire fortunes to his sacred personal fisc, in gratitute, as they themselves expressed it, for having been permitted to live during the incarnation and earthly sojourn of this "son of god". In the course of twenty years he thus inhereted no less than 35,000,000 gold aurei [nearly $1 billion at 1996 values]...Many potentates bequethed him not only thier private fortunes, but also their kingdoms and people in vassalage..The marble and bronze monuments to augustus still extant contain nearly one hundred sacred titles. Amoung them are jupiter optimus maximus, apollo, janus, quirinus, dionysus,mercurius,volcanus,neptunus, liber pater, savus [savious] and Hesus.

At his death, senator numericus atticus supposedly saw his spirit ascend to heaven. The ascension of augustus is engraved upon the great cameo, from the spoils of constantinople, presented by baldwin II to lois IX, and now in the cabinet of france. A fascimile of it is published in duruys history of rome...

Americas great seal, with it's obsessive fidelity to caesarian rome, cannot represent a nation more moral than the source of it's "scripture". The icons and mysteious cabbalistic language of this seal introduce a prosperous babylonian gospel. Taken seriously (and shouldn't a governments solemn statements be taken seriously?), the seals gospel teaches that ameica's high spiritual purpose is to assist in the ressurection of the son of gods mutilated parts from the evil slime of human flesh. It tells us that aleady the holy virgin has rescued the sons sacred heart from the slime - e pluribus unum, "one from many" - and has placed it high in the vault of heaven, as her five pointed celestial path describes for all to see. It calls for america to exert fervent sexual energy so that the sons many parts on earth might be reunited with the unum of heaven. It promises that america will rise toward the pure light of sinlessness and godliness, into eternal life as part of the solar body of the son- the sun - of god. It signifies that this cosmic ressurective procss is administered by a pyramidic hierarchy conceived in ancient babylon, exported to asia minor, and bequethed to rome. At the top of the heirarchy sits an unseen cheiftan, an unknown superior, a god of the seal who posesses universal intelligence and authority over every soul who confederates with, or ascribes to, the seal.

The god of the seal wields the fasces to sweep the earth clean of the last traces of original sin. He is assisted by a new priestly order, a "new world order" charged with destroyig all individual identity deemed inconsistant with the ressurection to godliness. Uncooperative governements and dissident citizens alike are cut down by arts of war so frugal that the liquidation increases popular faith in the fasces. Because they function in a golden age of saturn, the chief and his hierarhcy can be depended upon to mimic saturns strictness, cruelty, licentiousness, even cannabalism as the situation requires.

What the seal of the united states of america represents, to anyone who takes it seriously, is a ministry of sin. A speech by Jesuit politican scientist michal novak, published in the january 28, 1989 issue of america, the weekly magazine of american jesuits, sums it up:

" The framers wanted to build a "novus ordo" that would secure "liberty and justice for all".....The underlying principle of this new order is the fact of human sin. To build a republic designed for sinners, then, is the indispensible task....There is no use building a social system for saints. There are too few of them. And those there are are impossible to live with!....Any effective social system must be designed for the only moral majority there is: sinners.

And it can be clearly seen how faithfully the founding fathers have reconstructed babylonian rome on the banks of the potomac.





So not only have ancient pagan nations fought in the name of thier gods, america is lead by a polytheistic religion itself.

Quote:

It was only in the blending of politics and religion that intolerance came about. People were allowed to worship whatever other gods they wanted, as long as they paid tribute to the emperor.




No they didn't just have to pay tribute to the emperor, they had to recognise him as GOD.

edit: Christianity, true Christianity hreatened the roman empire because if Yehoshua is the Son Of God, then who is caesar?

Quote:


And I assure you I don't know what you're talking about. Examples, please.




No, I thin I've done enough. It took me quite a while to type all that.. you can search on your own. You fail to grasp a well known phenomena, that before "secular" democracy swept Europe and america, kings and nations were responsible to the religious clergy. This is how it has been for not only roman catholic nations, but ALL nations in history. Sometimes the king is the supreme glergyman, but all the same.

Whenever a nation fights, they fight in the name of their gods.Every empire that has been established was backed by religion. Even napolion bonaparte deified himself! And he was against the roman catholic church if you don't know. He captured the pope and held him in prison.

Quote:


The vast majority of wars throughout history, whether the fighting powers were pagan, Christian, muslim, etc., have not been about religion. They have mostly been about money, land, resources, and power. They might have justified their fight by claiming that God or the gods were on their side, but the justification was not the motivation.




It has been part of the justification. Of course these reasons you mention are also very valid as well.


Edited by jonathan_206 (11/24/07 08:44 PM)


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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7684055 - 11/26/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

bump

what happened to this thread


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Re: Polytheism versus monotheism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #17301411 - 11/29/12 05:02 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

It's obvious! Your big rant killed it! (5 years of hindsight is a wonderful thing!)


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