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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be disappointed? [Re: postanaldrip]
#7665079 - 11/21/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I completely understand what you are saying, because what I am proposing is precisely that, but without the middleman. We don't need money to help people, although it is one way of doing so with our system. I am all for helping others, being selfless, ect. but I believe that such things would happen naturally in a system that didn't revolve around commercialism, class, and wealth.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7665180 - 11/21/07 11:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Please realize that I am not proposing that I will try to change the world. I do not think that the problems I have listed are things that will ever be changed in human nature, rather, think of them as observations. Saying that my observations are some form of dictatorship is pretty ludicrous. All you are doing is using a straw man to twist my statements into something you can argue against. You make a number of unsubstantiated claims in your reaction, however, so I will point these out.
No I am not twisting your statements, maybe you should express what you have to say much better so there is no room for misinterpretation, if we want to have a real conversation, we have to get as exact as we can. I'd appreciate if you did so. Now getting back to the subject:
Quote:
I could very easily argue that this is not the case. While people may want to be lead, it is most certainly not what they need. I think you are glazing over my original argument. Please notice how I distinguish between leadership and omni-leadership. Humans do normally use leaders to accomplish group tasks, this is not what I am opposing. I am opposing the idea of the omni-leader, or, one who leads society totally. I am arguing for the breakdown of mass-control in the form of government. Society does not have to be anarchy for such a thing to happen, but it would have to be responsible, which is something that our current system does not allow. In controlling people en masse, responsibility on the individual level breaks down, because honestly, who needs to worry about themselves when there are others to pick up the slack?
I know exactly what you were talking about and my first statement still stands. I understood that you weren't referring to an "ordinary" form of leadership, but to those who are trying to control everything. Even though I am highly circumspect with anything that implies leadership, since it's corrupted by definition. But that's besides the point we're discussing here. How do you know what people need? From what I know, nobody's forcing us into anything. Thinking that we're being forced to do something against our Will can easily turn into a psychological disorder. Also it is not the truth. It is true that some people/groups are trying to set a social and cultural standard, but people follow it not because they're being forced to do so, but because it is their choice. Because it comes in accordance with some of their interests. So I am sorry to announce you, but control "en-masse" simply doesn't exist. 
Quote:
I'll focus on the first part, seeing as how the second part isn't even a complete thought. Commercialism does not exist as a result of public demand, but rather it exists to give the public demands. When humans came to be on this planet, we did not come with Coca-Cola, Mastercard, or Pancake Puff makers. These things are mere vestiges of real human needs. We do need food, shelter, ect, but what we do not need is a bunch of people telling us why we should buy their version. It is nothing but wasted energy. All I am arguing for is that we stop wasting this energy.
We didn't come in this world with none of those, but they sure do make our lives easier. Tell me, did you come in this world with a PC and access to internet? Why are you buying their version? Do you know how much money do they make because of people like you?  Now leaving joking aside, what's the difference between Coca Cola or Mastercard and internet? What do you wanna say by that? Should we go back to living in caves? Where do we draw the line between OK and not OK? What's good for us to use and what's bad? Should we stop at year 1800 instead of going to caves?  However, you have the freedom to choose to use none of these, make your own live the way you think it's "good" and just mind your own business. What others do is their own problem, and if they wanna "fuck up" their lives is none of your concern. Ahhh and yes, what are the real human needs?
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If society were to really change, there would be no need to ban anything.
Ok, it is more than clear that the society won't change. Should we start considering banning?
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People as a whole would need to wake up and realize that none of it matters. What do you think are the benefits of mass media? Do you think they outweigh the harms? I'm not just talking misuse here either. By nature, any form of mass media is a form of mass control. Please realize I am not shunning global communication, far from it. I am simply saying that humans do not require their thoughts to be generalized and spewed across the world for all to hear.
And I am simply answering you that people are not brain washed (even if they might seem that they are). People obey because they want to, for one reason or another.
Quote:
I'm honestly not sure how you are coming to this conclusion. Did you read my post, or are you just trying to be an asshole? I suggest that people in general should have more personal accountability for their actions and now all of a sudden its my problem? And not only that, but I'm forcing someone to believe that they should.. oh... I don't know.. be responsible? How is this imposing anything on anyone? Get real, man. *edit* woman.
Yes, I read all your posts in this thread, this is exactly what made me make that statement, and I still sustain my points. First you say that you're not happy about the direction this world is heading to, then you say that it would be ok for you to die, but only in the context of an Armageddon, then you say (again) that this is because you're not happy with the way that things are presenting themselves right now, and then you even give pointers about what's wrong with world. This is exactly what made me give probably one of the most honest and uninterested advices you'll ever get: get over yourself, stop whining and live your own life the way you think it's right.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7665489 - 11/22/07 01:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>>own problem, and if they wanna "fuck up" their lives is none of your concern. Ahhh and yes, what are the real human needs?
Yes indeed. People get what they need. They need what they get. Most need is an illusion, yet we have the illusion to work through, each at our own pace. To entertain the idea that people should not experience neediness is to entertain the idea that people should not be people. We live in the best of all possible worlds and everyone is doing the best they can with what they've got. We actually live in the only possible world, one of constant change, and is the best because it is the only. So why bitch?
The world is your mirror.
I'm not happy with the world as it is, becomes, I'm not happy with myself as I am.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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fantasylndvictm
yup



Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 2,388
Loc: usa
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7665632 - 11/22/07 02:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sry if I conflict with anyone I haven't read the entire post yet.
I have been reading a book about 2012 although I haven't gotten that far into everything it says so far makes sense. I am actually afraid that the world will end there and what saddens me the most about is that I want kids and to actually believe the world will end then would make it almost like homocide to give birth right now. I know humanity is on its way to destruction and it's only our fault. I do believe that our psyche has vreated such destruction. Everyone is so negative about everything now that it automactically puts a negative influence into our world which enevitablly destroys part of the world we live on.
Sry if this doesn't make sense I've been drinking.
-------------------- "How do we know whether the life of any creature has fulfilled its destiny? I have known the very old to die in bitterness and despair. I have seen young children die before their time but leave behind such a legacy of love and joy that grief for their passing was tempered by the knowledge that their brief lives had given much to others." "You have answered your own question,Tanis Half-Elven, far better than I could," the Forestmaster said gravely. "Say that that our lives are measured not by gain but by giving." -Dragonlance "Dragons of Autumn Twilight" If we lived in luxury we would grow soft. No human being truely knows their full capacity to love until they become a parent.
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2sky
a friend of Narnia


Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 119
Loc: the Dawn
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be disappointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7666739 - 11/22/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, it all depends on what would have happened in the future if it hadn't ended.
Poetically speaking, it reminds me of the old joke where a fellow gives a bunch of people a ride; and when he runs out of gas, they strip him, tie him to the front grill of the car and stick his head under the hood and abandon him. Finally, another guy stops and after the fellow tells what happened to him, the guy unzips his pants and says: ' Well, I guess this just isn't your lucky day'.
-------------------- To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968 But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho
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postanaldrip
human alien

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 676
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be disappointed? [Re: Jack Albertson]
#7667385 - 11/22/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It could be both or it could be neither.
-------------------- "It's not until we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything." TDFC
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JoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be disappointed? [Re: postanaldrip]
#7667430 - 11/22/07 04:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think a root to many of these problems is a lack of empathically generated connections.
People on the communites of the western world, are closing off from each other, as a way to prevent conflict and pain. When all the while, this causes more conflict and pain.
Ask yourself this: If you have a problem, is it better to be able to speak openly with people about it, or harbour all the emotion and turmoil in your own head....
Heres the problem:
There is an inability for us to be complelty open about not being able to be completly open about our lives.
Why do so many of us feel so anxious and fearful in a public spehre, if we are so closed off from eachother.
Reason i think is because when you intend to close down expressing yourself as you want to, you have so much more to hide from people, so much repressed emotion builds and explodes in our homes, where we cant even get along with out families.
Suicide, domesitc abuse - do you think it is easy to talk about these things with people, when you are the abuser or the abused?
cAn you see this pain, this strength that clogs our strongest power: The power of unity, of togetherness, the power of acceptance, mutual love and opening ourselves.
Were we born open or closed....
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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postanaldrip
human alien

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 676
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be disappointed? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7667965 - 11/22/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
People on the communites of the western world, are closing off from each other, as a way to prevent conflict and pain. When all the while, this causes more conflict and pain.
There is an inability for us to be complelty open about not being able to be completly open about our lives.
Reminds me of the short film by Alan Ball "Six Feet Under"
-------------------- "It's not until we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything." TDFC
Edited by postanaldrip (11/22/07 07:33 PM)
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7668500 - 11/22/07 10:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"From what I know, nobody's forcing us into anything. Thinking that we're being forced to do something against our Will can easily turn into a psychological disorder. Also it is not the truth."
I admit that everyone does have a choice in how they live their lives, of course they do. However, this choice cannot be equated to something simple that would allow anyone to do as they pleased. Yes, I could decide to ditch the class system, money, ect, by packing up and living somewhere in the woods, but does our society make this a viable or even possible option? I think not. In order to function with other people in our world one needs to constrain themselves to some degree. As another poster mentioned, the strain with which we communicate is unbearably tight, and this self censorship alone pervades our ability to be who we truly are. Think of how many people are born into this materialistic dream and live their whole lives without ever realizing that they can question it. Yes, they have a choice in how they live, but do they even know their options? This forum is a fairly skewed population in terms of self-realization, so its hard to understand how obtuse our society really is. I don't know about you, but I live in a pretty rural area, there are people here who have never even left the county (not country, county.) Sure, these people may be happy here, but thats because they don't know anything else. Is this wrong? Maybe not. Is this right? I'm not so sure about that either. But I digress, I'm not trying to speak against homebodies, but rather I am trying to show how this sort of mindset applies to people in general. If you don't know what you are missing, you can't miss it.
"Now leaving joking aside, what's the difference between Coca Cola or Mastercard and internet?"
This is pretty simple. Coca Cola and Mastercard are brands. The internet is a tool. There aren't different brands of internet (yet, anyway) it contains the same information regardless of what brand of computer you choose to access it with. While it is easy to point out "Hey buddy, you're a corporate whore because you use an intel chipset and Gskill RAM to access the internet" but it is still just an ad-hominem attack.
"What do you wanna say by that? Should we go back to living in caves? Where do we draw the line between OK and not OK? What's good for us to use and what's bad? Should we stop at year 1800 instead of going to caves? "
Great strawman, but I'll reply anyway. You seem to be missing the point of my argument. I'm not trying to advocate regression. I am simply pointing out that there are aspects of our society which are ingrained into how we function, and it restricts who we can become. I offered a list of things that I believe are contributing to this restriction after saying in my original post that our society sickened me. Now, are you arguing that these things I have pointed out are not restrictive? If so, you haven't really provided much ground for your argument aside from stating that it is so. For example:
"However, you have the freedom to choose to use none of these, make your own live the way you think it's "good" and just mind your own business. What others do is their own problem, and if they wanna "fuck up" their lives is none of your concern."
Do you truly believe that this is possible in this world? If you wanted to move to Alaska and live in the wilderness, would you not need to get a job to buy your supplies? Make money for gas? Buy survival training books? How do you propose one does this if they made the "free choice" to abandon these things? Aside from stealing and/or hitchhiking, I would love to hear your solution.
In a society without these methods, currency, commercialism, ect, the answer would be more difficult to obtain, but much more freely structured. In order to gather these items one would not need to find money, one could simply use the knowledge of those around him/her in order to do so. Sure, you will argue that this is possible now. However, I believe society prohibits this in placing arbitrary value on knowledge. People have the "what is in it for me" mentality. Would that exist in my proposed society? Certainly a good question, but I don't believe it is an answerable one without first going through such a paradigm shift. In order to do so a societies' mindset would need to change drastically, and while it is easy to chalk up the need for profit to human nature I believe this is a narrow minded approach. When lions hunt together, do they not share the kill without asking anything in return? When a lone penguin opts to be the first to jump into the dark water, does he make sure he has life insurance? Do you now see how that sort of thinking is not necessarily valid?
"Ahhh and yes, what are the real human needs?" Food, Water and Sex. These are all that is necessary to sustain our species.
"And I am simply answering you that people are not brain washed (even if they might seem that they are). People obey because they want to, for one reason or another."
Because they want to, or because they have to? There is a certain stigma associated with living outside the normal bounds of our society, is there not? This stigma is a prime example of what I think should be done away with. If I wanted to go live in the woods, people would think I was either a nutcase or a hippie. If we lived in a truly free society, people would only see me as someone who lives in the woods.
"This is exactly what made me give probably one of the most honest and uninterested advices you'll ever get: get over yourself, stop whining and live your own life the way you think it's right."
Ah yes, you serve as a prime example. I believe that people in the world should be free to do whatever they want, and as a response, you tell me to get over myself. Surely if I advocate freedom I must be selfish. Freedom isn't safe and comfortable for everyone. It isn't meant to be either.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7668547 - 11/22/07 11:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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will you be dissapointed?
Nah, I won't be dissapointed, but I will have to update this list one more time:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3394240#Post3394240
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: Diploid]
#7668643 - 11/22/07 11:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Our entire solar system moves 19 MILLION KM every day, maybe we really are headed for some new kind of intergalactic space...
Here's a fun new History Channel documentary about the lost book of Nostradamus, it mentions the 2012 alignment and features my friend Vincent Bridges.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: Middleman]
#7668657 - 11/22/07 11:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe. Sure. And maybe the Tooth Fairy lives in a nice condo on mars.
Many things are possible because they have an infinitessimally small chance of happening. Wasting mental energy thinking about them is a waste of brainpower.
If we were really headed for some gigantic blob of 'special space', one of the millions of telescopes and other space-observing instruments we have all over the place would have noticed it by now.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: Diploid]
#7668662 - 11/22/07 11:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah ok, it must be comforting to be so sure of our scientific senses.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7668686 - 11/22/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I admit that everyone does have a choice in how they live their lives, of course they do. However, this choice cannot be equated to something simple that would allow anyone to do as they pleased. Yes, I could decide to ditch the class system, money, ect, by packing up and living somewhere in the woods, but does our society make this a viable or even possible option? I think not. In order to function with other people in our world one needs to constrain themselves to some degree.
This means that you're dependent (psychologically) on the idea of society and sticking to the social standards, even though apparently you despise them. Well you can't just say I want to be loved and accepted and do my own thing, but I hate the way society exists. To you see the leap in thinking here? You either want to live the way you want, or you don't because it's more convenient for you to stick with the herd. Which I don't have anything against, because it is your choice and it concerns you, but what doesn't make sense is why you keep complaining about it. I don't fall for "I have no choice". This is just a socially accepted excuse for those who would revolt but lack the courage to do so. It is also what keeps us back and hold us from becoming more accepting, embracing reality as it is and act accordingly.
Quote:
As another poster mentioned, the strain with which we communicate is unbearably tight, and this self censorship alone pervades our ability to be who we truly are. Think of how many people are born into this materialistic dream and live their whole lives without ever realizing that they can question it. Yes, they have a choice in how they live, but do they even know their options?
ALL the options are everywhere, even in the smallest city or apparently "closed" community, everything is already there, chances for becoming more aware and analytical. Yes, people DO know their options, they just opt not to opt for them.  Why they do that, I already said: because it is safer for them somehow to keep on following the herd.
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This forum is a fairly skewed population in terms of self-realization, so its hard to understand how obtuse our society really is.
No you got it all backwards. It is exactly why, this forum is the way it is, that a big part of the people here would probably say that each and every one of us, have the unaltered free Will to change our lives the way it serves us better. And that nobody's really controlled, but just unwilling to make a shift in thinking.
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I don't know about you, but I live in a pretty rural area, there are people here who have never even left the county (not country, county.) Sure, these people may be happy here, but thats because they don't know anything else. Is this wrong? Maybe not. Is this right? I'm not so sure about that either. But I digress, I'm not trying to speak against homebodies, but rather I am trying to show how this sort of mindset applies to people in general. If you don't know what you are missing, you can't miss it.
I am not missing it, I just gave up lying to myself by telling me that people don't really have a real choice regarding changing their lives. We usually delude ourselves into thinking that because it's so much easier to find an excuse for our own failures and fears.
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This is pretty simple. Coca Cola and Mastercard are brands. The internet is a tool. There aren't different brands of internet (yet, anyway) it contains the same information regardless of what brand of computer you choose to access it with. While it is easy to point out "Hey buddy, you're a corporate whore because you use an intel chipset and Gskill RAM to access the internet" but it is still just an ad-hominem attack.
No, to be quite honest, you didn't outline any difference here. A credit card is also a tool. Coca cola is a drink which exists because lots of people want it to exists. If there was nobody to buy it, it would go out of production in an instant.
Quote:
Great strawman, but I'll reply anyway. You seem to be missing the point of my argument. I'm not trying to advocate regression. I am simply pointing out that there are aspects of our society which are ingrained into how we function, and it restricts who we can become. I offered a list of things that I believe are contributing to this restriction after saying in my original post that our society sickened me. Now, are you arguing that these things I have pointed out are not restrictive? If so, you haven't really provided much ground for your argument aside from stating that it is so. For example:
And you came up with a few more restrictive ideas, such as giving up credit cards and the like. Can't you see the irony in all that? No, I don't think that those things are restrictive, people who use them are restricting themselves, but this is also because it is what they choose. You accuse me of straw man for the second time and I'm beginning to wonder if you really know what that is. You say that you don't whine about life, but yet all you do is... complain. Find errors in the way other people live and then try to "correct" them your way. This pretty much sounds like whining to me. 
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Do you truly believe that this is possible in this world? If you wanted to move to Alaska and live in the wilderness, would you not need to get a job to buy your supplies? Make money for gas? Buy survival training books? How do you propose one does this if they made the "free choice" to abandon these things? Aside from stealing and/or hitchhiking, I would love to hear your solution.
...
In order to do so a societies' mindset would need to change drastically, and while it is easy to chalk up the need for profit to human nature I believe this is a narrow minded approach. When lions hunt together, do they not share the kill without asking anything in return? When a lone penguin opts to be the first to jump into the dark water, does he make sure he has life insurance? Do you now see how that sort of thinking is not necessarily valid?
Can't you see that you're contradicting yourself here? First you say that by the way life is working now for humans, we really have no other options but to submit, if we want to live a safe life, have money for gas and blah blah blah, and then you come with an example (the one with the animals in the wilderness) on how our society could change by following their example. Still, you consider that you can't do this on your own, but that the entire population on Earth has to follow you there, had to change their lives after what you think is right. Tell me, what would be the difference if all the people would adhere to your ideas, other than a psychological barrier which keeps you stuck in confusion? Is it that the idea that social security still exists will actually keep you from moving to Alaska and live in the wilderness? Or the fact that you can't use master card when you're climbing a tree?  Stealing and hitchhiking are indeed two options. Amongst others such as learning how to survive in the wilderness, how to build your own house, grow your own food and stuff like that. But please DO tell me, what is wrong with stealing and hitchhiking? I really don;t understand, what do you want exactly? Perhaps you dream about a govt which is willing to sponsor your living in the woods? 
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In a society without these methods, currency, commercialism, ect, the answer would be more difficult to obtain, but much more freely structured. In order to gather these items one would not need to find money, one could simply use the knowledge of those around him/her in order to do so. Sure, you will argue that this is possible now. However, I believe society prohibits this in placing arbitrary value on knowledge. People have the "what is in it for me" mentality. Would that exist in my proposed society? Certainly a good question, but I don't believe it is an answerable one without first going through such a paradigm shift.
Again, what does th society have to do with your choice to live life differently? It is emotional attachment to this idea of being sustained by a society, it is the need to feel appreciated and understood. It is also the need to feel accepted. All of these come from fear, and saying that the world is stopping you from being who you really are is just an excuse.
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Food, Water and Sex. These are all that is necessary to sustain our species.
These you go, so why is that difficult to go after food, water and sex (the basic needs) and stop giving a damn about how society might look at you and judge you?
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Because they want to, or because they have to? There is a certain stigma associated with living outside the normal bounds of our society, is there not? This stigma is a prime example of what I think should be done away with. If I wanted to go live in the woods, people would think I was either a nutcase or a hippie. If we lived in a truly free society, people would only see me as someone who lives in the woods.
Because they want to, since there is no "they have to"  Read above because I already explained.
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Ah yes, you serve as a prime example. I believe that people in the world should be free to do whatever they want, and as a response, you tell me to get over myself. Surely if I advocate freedom I must be selfish. Freedom isn't safe and comfortable for everyone. It isn't meant to be either.
You don't advocate freedom, you want a world where freedom is being perceived in the same manner by everybody. Freedom is subjective, as well as everything else. Some consider that being free is live out in the woods, some believe that freedom means having a lot of money, some consider that freedom is to commit suicide. And the list could go on endlessly. Who are you to determine what's freedom, on a universal level? How do you know that your appreciation is accurate?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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aDoS
freedom lover



Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 7,590
Loc: land of the free
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? *DELETED* [Re: xFrockx]
#7668758 - 11/23/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by aDoSReason for deletion: .
-------------------- "If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: aDoS]
#7668893 - 11/23/07 01:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Careful now! Logic is to a mystic-head as garlic is to a vampire.
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implee
Cyber Hippie


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 5,833
Loc: Houston, Texas.
Last seen: 5 months, 19 days
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7669165 - 11/23/07 04:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed?" You cant be disappointed when your not alive, use your head.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7669479 - 11/23/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You continue to say that I have all the choice in the world when it comes to living my life, but riddle me this:
What happens when I decide to stop using money, and then get imprisoned for not paying taxes?
"No, to be quite honest, you didn't outline any difference here. A credit card is also a tool. Coca cola is a drink which exists because lots of people want it to exists. If there was nobody to buy it, it would go out of production in an instant."
Wow, you are trying really hard to disagree with me when you are obviously wrong. Yes, a credit card is a tool, Mastercard is a brand, as is coca cola. The internet is not a brand. Get it?
"Tell me, what would be the difference if all the people would adhere to your ideas, other than a psychological barrier which keeps you stuck in confusion? Is it that the idea that social security still exists will actually keep you from moving to Alaska and live in the wilderness? Or the fact that you can't use master card when you're climbing a tree? "
What is the difference? Well, one that really contradicts your idea of free choice I have allready come up with: Taxes. I must work within societies rules in order to pay taxes so the IRS does not send me to federal prison.
Oh, and I thought I might as well address your doubt on my knowing what a strawman is. In your post you say that I envision a world where the government endorses me to climb a tree. This is a classic example of a strawman. It takes my words regarding living in the wilderness, and distorts them into a very easily ridiculed idea that has little to do with my original argument. When did I say the government would be endorsing anything?
"You don't advocate freedom, you want a world where freedom is being perceived in the same manner by everybody. Freedom is subjective, as well as everything else. Some consider that being free is live out in the woods, some believe that freedom means having a lot of money, some consider that freedom is to commit suicide. And the list could go on endlessly. Who are you to determine what's freedom, on a universal level? How do you know that your appreciation is accurate? "
See, here is where you are wrong. Freedom is not subjective. Freedom is the ability to do all of those things you mentioned, or none of them.
You do make some good points though, I can see what you mean about how making everyone live "my way" would be no different than now. Perhaps I should have thought that out a little more. However, you seem to neglect to realize that we do not have free choices now. Our system now is a one-dimensional way of life. Those who choose to live outside it, by doing things like not paying taxes, doing drugs, squatting on land one did not buy. All of these things impede us in living how we choose. In the end, if you truly want to be free, you'll probably end up in prison.
Edited by xFrockx (11/23/07 08:48 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? [Re: xFrockx]
#7669538 - 11/23/07 08:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
What happens when I decide to stop using money, and then get imprisoned for not paying taxes?
If you don't have any incomes you don't have to pay any taxes
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Wow, you are trying really hard to disagree with me when you are obviously wrong. Yes, a credit card is a tool, Mastercard is a brand, as is coca cola. The internet is not a brand. Get it?
No, I don't "get" it because there isn't any difference. Let me explain what you just said: it's ok to use the internet because it's a brand. What you fail to see that internet is a general term, and that there ARE internet companies and you must ask for their services in order to have access to internet. Just like credit card is a general term. And there there's Master card and Visa and so on. Both internet and credit cards have brands.
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What is the difference? Well, one that really contradicts your idea of free choice I have allready come up with: Taxes. I must work within societies rules in order to pay taxes so the IRS does not send me to federal prison.
Yeah, I already answered you that. As long as you don't have any incomes you don't pay any taxes. 
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See, here is where you are wrong. Freedom is not subjective. Freedom is the ability to do all of those things you mentioned, or none of them.
I am sorry, there's no way I can have this discussion any further because you refuse to bring reason in your arguments so it's like talking to a wall.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: If the world really does end in 2012, will you be dissapointed? *DELETED* [Re: implee]
#7669566 - 11/23/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: sibueud
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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