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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Then, begin forcing all those around me to do my will.
That's the way it is for me now.
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ManianFH
living in perverty


Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 14,741
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
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MushroomTrip said:
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Your reply comes close to the reason for why I post this to begin with. Lets look beyond whats real, and into the what-ifs of religion for a second. There is the flip side to hell, which is heaven. And of course for a few to get into heaven, others must go to hell - this is how we all recognize the system to work. So, is the eternal bliss of some people worth the eternal suffering of others?
The answer should be always, no.
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This statement has no support therefore in not valid. You can't draw conclusions based on nothing but delusory views on the "after life". Both feelings, bliss and suffering, are nothing else but how we choose to perceive this life, so you can't say that someone's state of well being is causing suffering to others.
I think it is valid. Most often when you talk to people who have a concept of heaven and hell, they will tell you that you cannot have one, without the other. Delusory views is a little harsh, considering these are the views most religions hold.
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Granted, a persons actions on this planet would theoretically be the reasons for why they are in hell, however, they did not ask to be in that position to begin with, so their entire existence was a form of entrapment.
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Which position are you talking about?
The position of being born on this planet with no prior (known) consultation.
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But even if a persons actions got them into hell, and lets say they even wanted life, before life, their punishment for about 122 years MAX of sinful living warrants an eternity in hell, where living a devout life to your god will get you eternal happiness?
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I still try to understand what makes you think that these things truly exist? None of us died, so how can you tell what happens afterwards? Might as well be nothing at all. 
As I said in my original post on this matter, "Lets look beyond whats real, and into the what-ifs of religion for a second." This is all theoretical discussion.
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The word eternal is scary in my opinion, with or without the words heaven or hell; obviously heaven is the better choice, but it wasnt my choice to want to have to make that decision. Something put us here and we have to make that decision, we were forced into it as far as I or anyone else can tell.
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What put us here? Do you want to have a discussion based on facts, or is it all purely fictional?
once again, "Lets look beyond whats real, and into the what-ifs of religion for a second." This is all theoretical discussion.
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I would rather have absolutely nothing. Blank for eternity, none of this ever happened, that seems fair for everyone.
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If it were to be blank, then "you", would not exist, in any form, so you wouldn't be able to acknowledge the state of nothingness. And besides, how do you determine what's fair for everyone?
I determine whats fair for everyone by giving everyone exactly the same thing from the beginning. Take away all that has happened, and give everything blank, that is fair, or at least more fair than heaven for some, hell for others...
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: End it all? [Re: ManianFH]
#7660170 - 11/20/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Don't you think it's important to establish what's real and what's imaginary? How do you want to improve the quality of living if we guide ourselves after these kinds of beliefs?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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ManianFH
living in perverty


Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 14,741
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
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MushroomTrip said: Don't you think it's important to establish what's real and what's imaginary? How do you want to improve the quality of living if we guide ourselves after these kinds of beliefs?
The only way to establish whats real and whats imaginary in the afterlife is through our subjective beliefs. Whats real in this sense to one person may be completely different to another, and there would be no way still to show which is the more accurate representation.
These kinds of beliefs may not necessarily be what we guide ourselves and our lives after. Many people were raised under rather extreme religious guidelines and have this idea of what the afterlife is whether they want to accept it or not. If you have been told everyday since you were a child that a big evil guineapig was going to eat you for eternity in the afterlife, you would come to believe it. Even if in your later years you realized that this was complete bullshit, the notion of there being a guinea pig in the afterlife would still be a large part of your religious faith, whether you completey reject it or not.
Thats why so many Christians raised under the thought of eternal hell eventually reject their religion yet struggle with the concept of hell long after declaring that no such thing exists. Its not that everyone wants to believe this stuff, but the fact that it is a widely used concept is enough to make us need to deal with it, and want to disprove or fight against it.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: End it all? [Re: ManianFH]
#7660745 - 11/20/07 09:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And the only way, in my opinion, to fight those fears and this idea of the after life, is to make use of reason. Also, people might not be responsible for the religious bull shit they are indoctrinated with as kids, but after they grow up, they make their own choices. Those who prefer to believe in the existence of heaven and hell do it because it is convenient for them to think so. Because this way, each time something negative happens to them, they find comfort in the idea that there's a heaven that will reward them. And when they consider that somebody was unjust to them, that there's a hell to punish them. It's easy to see where these people are coming from when you have been at least once in the same situation. I grew up in a Christian family and I remember that, as a kid, I used to convince myself that there is the after life in the form presented here (heave-hell) especially for those reasons. I recall exactly that I did that out of fear and out of the need of having someone to do "justice" for me.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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