|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
why humans are not animals
#7653218 - 11/19/07 12:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
list some reasons why humans are not "just animals" (whatever that means) and why reality is not a singular.. i dont even know the word.. (scientific?) story
1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds
2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)
3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.
What is language anyways? There is something wrong with language.. It can't create anything. It's all the same damn word. It's like every word is the same damn word.
--------------------
|
Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
Quote:
1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds
So do many other animals. All pack animals do this... also, birds... fish... etc...
Quote:
2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)
Ridiculous indeed... and false. Many other animals can be psychologically disturbed (and therefore effected) by things they perceived incorrectly. Birds... dogs... primates... felines... etc..
Quote:
3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.
Holy run-on sentence Batman!
Anyway, you're sorta' right and sorta' wrong on this thought.
If the experiences of an animal are studied, and the psychology of the species is fully understood... you can accurately predict how almost any animal (including individual humans) will react to any situation. So if a scientist ever says humans and animals have similar realities and/orexperiences... they'll probably know what they're talking about.
Humans are far more complex creatively than other animals. And yet from afar, we are very similar to ants.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (11/19/07 12:58 AM)
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Rose]
#7653288 - 11/19/07 01:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds
So do many other animals. All pack animals do this... also, birds... fish... etc...
Can an animal convince another animal of something? Can they negotiate and bargain and come to an agreement about something?
Quote:
2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)
Quote:
Ridiculous indeed... and false. Many other animals can be psychologically disturbed (and therefore effected) by things they perceived incorrectly. Birds... dogs... primates... felines... etc..
What do you mean perceive incorrectly?... or psychologically disturbed? Can you tell me what the mind of a lunatic chicken is like and how he is perceiving incorrectly?
Quote:
3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.
Quote:
Holy run-on sentence Batman!
Anyway, you're sorta' right and sorta' wrong on this thought.
If the experiences of an animal are studied, and the psychology of the species is fully understood... you can accurately predict how almost any animal (including individual humans) will react to any situation. So if a scientist ever says humans and animals have similar realities and/orexperiences... they'll probably know what they're talking about.
Humans are far more complex creatively than other animals. And yet from afar, we are very similar to ants.
Personally I think science generalizes far too much and has it's own story which is very limited and not very creative. How can a scientist possibly claim to know the reality of a dolphin by studying it's behavior? Science claims to know how our minds work, how our thoughts are produced, but I don't think we fully understand why we do anything at all. The interpretation of our behavior is always after the fact and is always a story.
My motivation for this post can't be explained by any other method than analogically.
We are similar to ants, this is true. But this is so far from what we actually are. If we look at humans from a human perspective and not a scientific perspective, we are nothing less than a conscious reality which can create infinite associations and infinite layers of experience. It's baffling to think how FREE the mind is.
--------------------
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
|
I take it back, animals can definitely intend to produce an effect on another animal's state of mind, because this rabbit is definitely fucking with this snake: http://www.livevideo.com/video/jlstigger70/4A40CC7759F04079BF3069F390FE6046/funny-video-snake-versus-rabb.aspx
But what I really mean is that animals do not live by stories, this seems to be a very human trait
--------------------
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
|
Story: Users EternalCowabunga and Cervantes are having a Debate
--------------------
|
Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: But what I really mean is that animals do not live by stories, this seems to be a very human trait
I agree with this. Humans have taken animal creativity to a uniquely complex level. Hollywood is uniquely human.
That said, I wonder what humpback whales are saying in their LONG songs...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
|
lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Rose]
#7653359 - 11/19/07 01:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: But what I really mean is that animals do not live by stories, this seems to be a very human trait
I agree with this. Humans have taken animal creativity to a uniquely complex level. Hollywood is uniquely human.
That said, I wonder what humpback whales are saying in their LONG songs...
"fuck off, this is my fucking territory" -whale song in english
|
Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
Doubt it...
It is probably something more like, "Let's Get it On..."
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
|
psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
|
|
Many animals have specialized adaptations to suit their survival, too. We humans have a specialized frontal lobe, which allows us to draw out concepts and ideas about predictions. This is central for tool making, and survival planning.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8073.html - A great ape uses a stick to test the depth of water before wading through. Which address points #1, and #2 that you have made. #3 isn't addressable, and isn't a valid point.
We are animals, with a specialized brain, whereas other animals specialize in different means to survival. Yes, we are dramatically different (and fortunate), but we are still animals.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

|
Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea



Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
|
|
We learned to talk.
But yeah, seems likely we are just animals - why should humans consider themselves anymore expendable than bacteria?
|
badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Ego Death]
#7653594 - 11/19/07 06:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
We have language.
While I won't get too far into into it, (because I'm not overly familiar with the semantics), we have "self-awareness", and a concept of self which is much different than that of an animal.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
|
|
We also have humor and sarcasm. I'd like to hear someone explain these mechanisms from an evolutionary standpoint. Are they just emergent properties of self-awareness? How can things be so damn funny?? Why don't other animals laugh? Or do they? I think I've seen monkeys and great apes yukking it up.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Lion]
#7653616 - 11/19/07 06:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bug said: Why don't other animals laugh? Or do they? I think I've seen monkeys and great apes yukking it up.
for the same reasons they can't talk as we do
have you ever seen another animal smile? have you ever seen another animal smile because of the action of another smile?
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: demiu5]
#7653620 - 11/19/07 06:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
have you ever seen another animal smile?
Yeah, gorillas and chimps can smile. I'm pretty sure they laugh too. It just seems kind of weird to me. Language is one thing because it gave us an evolutionary advantage in communication, but laughter and humor seem to be in no way advantageous to survival, so why do they exist?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
soulcircus
Stranger


Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 1,300
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals *DELETED* [Re: Lion]
#7653808 - 11/19/07 08:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
Edited by soulcircus (11/19/07 08:18 AM)
|
TrippinNinjaBuddha
ShroominSamurai

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 279
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: soulcircus]
#7654038 - 11/19/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
'Animal' is a human concept. Everything exists as it is - separate and unique, together and collective. This pointless (but not ineloquent) debate is an example of a uniquely human behavior.
-------------------- Jumped in a river, what did I see? Black eyed angels swimming with me Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see All my lovers were there with me All my past and all my futures We went to heaven in a little rowboat There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: list some reasons why humans are not "just animals" (whatever that means) and why reality is not a singular.. i dont even know the word.. (scientific?) story
1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds
2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)
3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.
What is language anyways? There is something wrong with language.. It can't create anything. It's all the same damn word. It's like every word is the same damn word.
All I can say is 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7654769 - 11/19/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
 
It's great to be a human
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I'm glad you think so. But tell me, what do you have to compare it to?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7654816 - 11/19/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Any comparison is just a story. Analogy.
But if I were to entertain the story that I could have been an animal and it would have been less of a complex and rich experience I would say human experience is better. I like this story, it doesn't leave me with regret or loss.
--------------------
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
|
"Animal" is just a classification. You have three choices: animal, vegetable or mineral. If humans are not animals, are we broccoli or quartz?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Any comparison is just a story. Analogy.
But if I were to entertain the story that I could have been an animal and it would have been less of a complex and rich experience I would say human experience is better. I like this story, it doesn't leave me with regret or loss.
I have a suspicion that dolphins have it better.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Veritas]
#7654897 - 11/19/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You have three choices
Please sir, may I have some more?
--------------------
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7654918 - 11/19/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Any comparison is just a story. Analogy.
But if I were to entertain the story that I could have been an animal and it would have been less of a complex and rich experience I would say human experience is better. I like this story, it doesn't leave me with regret or loss.
I have a suspicion that dolphins have it better.
Fair enough. The idea that the dolphins have a better deal than us makes me a bit uncomfortable, but it's possible I could accept this idea later on down the road
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Now why would that make you uncomfortable?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7654943 - 11/19/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
If I think about it too much I might start thinking that this life is lacking something.. the possibility of going in that direction is uncomfortable, but maybe I should explore it more.
Now I'm choosing to feel happy for our dolphin friends because they are probably having a great time
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
If I think about it too much I might start thinking that this life is lacking something.. the possibility of going in that direction is uncomfortable,
Common neurotic thinking.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
BirdsIView
Mr. Helms

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 736
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7655258 - 11/19/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Ugh I hate when people try to say we aren't animals. You're giving us too much credit, we are just sophisticated animals. In the end, we're animals. I guess animal has just become a synonym for stupid and primitive.
You ever truly look at someone? I mean look at them almost as if you weren't too a human? If you have, than you will see that we look a LOT like monkeys.
As advanced as we are in the end it surrounds only one thing, the value of life. That is what makes us animals.
|
demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BirdsIView]
#7655421 - 11/19/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I like watching the primate videos in anthropology and seeing who some of the primates remind me of
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
|
remnant
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 25
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7655466 - 11/19/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
your a monkey, now deal with it
Edited by remnant (11/19/07 03:59 PM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: remnant]
#7655472 - 11/19/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
remnant said: your a money
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7657211 - 11/19/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I had a random thought last night... undoubtedly the human hand has allowed us a lot of advantage for survival, in that we can manipulate the environment to favor our survival.
Think back to the origins of mankind; did the adaptation of the human hand enable us to become so well suited for survival, that our brain was able to evolve and discover the ability to finely manipulate objects external to our body? My idea is, that we developed a fine tuned ability to manipulate our surroundings, this allowed us the "luxury" to develop the brain into a distinctly more advanced level of processing and cognitive power. And perhaps a facet of our advanced nature could be linked to our species evolutionary development of the hand, which then in a sense allowed our brains to learn a lot of more advanced manipulation techniques, which thus carried over to many facets of the human experience.
Just a little thought... kinda thinking out loud. Just sorta stemmed from me realizing how amazing the hand is.
Carry on... hope that even made some sense...
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: andrewss]
#7657775 - 11/20/07 04:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
i'm turning into broccoli
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I thought you were a worm?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
|
Quote:
list some reasons why humans are not "just animals" (whatever that means) and why reality is not a singular.. i dont even know the word.. (scientific?) story
1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds
2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)
3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.
What is language anyways? There is something wrong with language.. It can't create anything. It's all the same damn word. It's like every word is the same damn word.
We had a Sigmund Freud; animals don't. Imagine an animal lying on a couch and another animal analyzing its mind.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7658702 - 11/20/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
We had a Sigmund Freud; animals don't.
It's truly amazing to me that so many of you hold a belief that we are not animals. It's like believing Creationism. My fucking God. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658716 - 11/20/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
We are still animals, but we are quite ahead of the rest of them.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7658727 - 11/20/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I think we're one of the most interesting animals out there.
--------------------
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658759 - 11/20/07 11:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Creationism and me, we are worlds apart. 
Well, yeah if we are animals, we wouldn't have to worry about death. But we do.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7658781 - 11/20/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shakercee said: Creationism and me, we are worlds apart. 
Well, yeah if we are animals, we wouldn't have to worry about death. But we do.
Maybe there will be a time when we will invent/create/engineer artificial consciousness. This wouldn't have to worry about death, but it wouldn't be able to be called animal either. Maybe animals worry more about death then us. It's their primal instinct to avoid death (-> do live) at least.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7658800 - 11/20/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: We are still animals, but we are quite ahead of the rest of them.
Not only a subjective opinion but a prejudiced one to boot and based on speculation.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Silversoul]
#7658806 - 11/20/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Silversoul said: I think we're one of the most interesting animals out there.
Of course you would. It's called self-importance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7658813 - 11/20/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shakercee said:
Well, yeah if we are animals, we wouldn't have to worry about death. But we do.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe you just said that. Did you miss out on schooling or something?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
vaportrail
upandaway



Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 121
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658826 - 11/20/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I've seen a dog skateboard, a chimp drive a jeep, I've been working with a crew of bricklayers for six months welcome to the jungle
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658830 - 11/20/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
no..worry in the sense of what would happen after death.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658853 - 11/20/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: We are still animals, but we are quite ahead of the rest of them.
Not only a subjective opinion but a prejudiced one to boot and based on speculation.
 The specification of our tools to our unique realisations of mindful concepts to create our reality is only one example of our capabilities. Of course, not nearly everyone uses them for their benefit, or uses them at all, which would make them not so quite ahead of animals. And of course, these mental abilities can reflect back, in their non- or mal-usage, on a level lower than animal being.
But even then, there exist 'hysteric' (edit for clarification:neurotic) animals 
We can use an animal-psychologist, from time to time
Edited by BlueCoyote (11/20/07 12:28 PM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Rose]
#7658925 - 11/20/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cervantes said: That said, I wonder what humpback whales are saying in their LONG songs...
It is probably something more like, "Let's Get it On..."
"Let's Get it On" ~ Marvin Graye Whale
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7659168 - 11/20/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
so quite ahead of animals.
We are animals. Don't they teach that in Germany.
And you of course know the capabilities of all other animals and so can make your comparison.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7659804 - 11/20/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
you are right i am a worm i ran a scissorslift for some bricklayers they dropped lots of mortar what can I say we are animals i would not have it any other way.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7662189 - 11/21/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: so quite ahead of animals.
We are animals. Don't they teach that in Germany.
A rat race is still a rat race. Some some are ahead and some are behind. And you know the difference between genus and species ? Even a tiger is an animal, an ape is one too. So is a human. Some advanced ape. They are all the same species, but a different genus. (Or vice verse. In german they are called 'Art' and 'Gattung') Then there are differentiations amongst genus. Some crazy philosopher even called one of them genus Übermensch. Don't they teach that in america ? 
Quote:
And you of course know the capabilities of all other animals and so can make your comparison.
I see very specific specialisation within each different genera, but only a human has that a big variety to choose from, which of his abilities he wants to specialise and better. No other genus, for example, has that huge variety of tools ready for their use.
Edited by BlueCoyote (11/21/07 10:26 AM)
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7662190 - 11/21/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
shakercee said:
Well, yeah if we are animals, we wouldn't have to worry about death. But we do.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe you just said that. Did you miss out on schooling or something?
Dunno if they teach in schools now that animal are aware of their own death.
But it got me thinking. I came across this interesting piece of interaction between the Gorilla, Koko and and a staff member:
Quote:
Where do gorillas go when they die? Maureen asked.
Koko replied, Comfortable/hole/bye [the sign for kissing a person good-bye].
When do gorillas die? she asked.
Koko replied with the signs Trouble/old.
How do gorillas feel when they die: happy, sad, afraid?
Sleep, answered Koko.
Hmmm,don't know if this really happened.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
Edited by shakercee (11/21/07 10:17 AM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7663134 - 11/21/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The argument was not about who has more tools, or means of expressing oneself and so on. The subject is pretty simple: are we or are we not animals? And there's an overwhelming amount of data to sustain that we are animals. Also, I see that you agree with that too:
Quote:
Even a tiger is an animal, an ape is one too. So is a human. Some advanced ape.
Now, getting further on your comment:
Quote:
They are all the same species, but a different genus. (Or vice verse. In german they are called 'Art' and 'Gattung')
I suspect that you try to prove that we are somehow superior to the rest of the animals, since you already agreed that we might be animals after all. My question to you is: how do you know that we're far more advanced? We have so little data about how the other animals feel or think. Is it only because for us, from our perspective, we do it better, and for example, no other animal can drive a car? How do you know that this is sign of better?
Quote:
No other genus, for example, has that huge variety of tools ready for their use.
That might be mainly because of our biological form. Having hands and legs comes as a great aid in all that.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7663307 - 11/21/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: The argument was not about who has more tools, or means of expressing oneself and so on. The subject is pretty simple: are we or are we not animals? And there's an overwhelming amount of data to sustain that we are animals. Also, I see that you agree with that too:
Quote:
Even a tiger is an animal, an ape is one too. So is a human. Some advanced ape.
Now, getting further on your comment:
Quote:
They are all the same species, but a different genus. (Or vice verse. In german they are called 'Art' and 'Gattung')
I suspect that you try to prove that we are somehow superior to the rest of the animals, since you already agreed that we might be animals after all. My question to you is: how do you know that we're far more advanced? We have so little data about how the other animals feel or think. Is it only because for us, from our perspective, we do it better, and for example, no other animal can drive a car? How do you know that this is sign of better?
Quote:
No other genus, for example, has that huge variety of tools ready for their use.
That might be mainly because of our biological form. Having hands and legs comes as a great aid in all that.
Basically what I was trying to say earlier.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: andrewss]
#7663399 - 11/21/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Here is some stuff I looked up on the Gorilla Koko... pretty interesting stuff:
Quote:
"Koko has at least nine hundred words at her signing disposal. She can link them up in statements of up to eight words. All this is documented. Her creative transformations, her creative play with language--her creativity per se--may be more interesting. It's also more elusive and harder to quantify.
Koko refers to ice cream as "my cold cup." A ring becomes "finger bracelet." Nectarine yogurt translates into "orange flower sauce." The gorilla can keep rhythm when asked. She has no trouble decoding pig Latin. She lies when it suits her. "Who broke the kitchen sink?" one of the staff asks her. Koko indicates another staff member, whirls about and starts to laugh. The gorilla has her favorite insults too, not unlike those of small children. "Dirty stupid toilet," she signs. She understands that color carries emotional weight. When angry, she sometimes describes herself as "red rotten mad."
Quote:
Koko, it seems, is always listening. One day Patterson was talking to another staff member within earshot of the gorilla. "Going to Los Angeles once a month will kill me," she was saying. Koko approached. She and Patterson had previously talked seriously about death. Patterson had asked Koko about her understanding of it, and the gorilla had responded, "Trouble old ... comfortable hole bye ... sleep." Death in the abstract had seemed to suggest peace to the gorilla. But now she was agitated and signing "frown, frown, frown, frown, frown." Only after Patterson explained that she wasn't about to do anything that was going to get her killed, did Koko relax. Now Patterson and the staff have taken to spelling such hot items.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7663402 - 11/21/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'll use simplification now. One point, the difference may only be the gap in time in relation to the exponential aspect of evolution. Meaning, if any species would be given enough time, they would develop cars and guns and such. But we are 'in some way' ahead of them in evolution.
Second point: The developement of consciousness in human form is unique on this planet, provable by means of interactive communication, for second example. We are most 'communicative' with any other things and subjects, than any other subject or thing are with us.
The difference in the evolutionary advance of humans which I called 'better' or 'ahead', for me is obvious. How this 'special' difference can be seen seems in one way not clear: Is it continuous from animal to human, or is there some jump or gap, which makes a clear cut. From this perspective, a spiritual definition would make sense, in which the 'better' would be defined as the more accurate expression of spirit, through consciousness into our realm of common existence.
(sorry for bad wording)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7663512 - 11/21/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I'll use simplification now. One point, the difference may only be the gap in time in relation to the exponential aspect of evolution. Meaning, if any species would be given enough time, they would develop cars and guns and such. But we are 'in some way' ahead of them in evolution.
Well, that's exactly what I was arguing about. This "in some way" is too undefined and blurry to be able to make a proper calculation. What is exactly it? Like I said before, we know too little about what animals feel and think, so jumping into conclusion might leave us with an erroneous idea. But what is obvious is that other animals DO show signs of thinking, sometimes very much so.
Quote:
Second point: The developement of consciousness in human form is unique on this planet, provable by means of interactive communication, for second example. We are most 'communicative' with any other things and subjects, than any other subject or thing are with us.
And since when being talkative is a sign of being aware?  I know LOTS of extremely talkative persons and which I wouldn't exactly call intelligent, as well as other (not so many) quiet people who are very smart and aware. Besides, other animals do communicate with each other. The fact that we're unable to understand them is something different. It simply means that WE are incapable of communicating with them.
Quote:
The difference in the evolutionary advance of humans which I called 'better' or 'ahead', for me is obvious. How this 'special' difference can be seen seems in one way not clear: Is it continuous from animal to human, or is there some jump or gap, which makes a clear cut. From this perspective, a spiritual definition would make sense, in which the 'better' would be defined as the more accurate expression of spirit, through consciousness into our realm of common existence.
And sheetahs can run faster than us and it has incredible hunting abilities, dolphins can swim like no other human and cats can fall on their paws. What's the difference? All (humans, sheetahs, dolphins, cats and so on) adapt to the conditions they live in. So how can you determine that the way we adapted is better than how the rest of the animals did?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
faceofbear
the witch-doctorlife



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 112
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7664013 - 11/21/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
man is the animal with logos (the word)
it is, more than anything, our language that differentiates us from other animals. our use of language allows us to create concepts, abstractions by which fundamentally human thought processes are possible at all.
studies with gorillas like Koko indicate the cognitive capacity for other primates to learn language that encompasses limited concept use, but whether they can develop such languages themselves is another matter. we need only look to what we have done with our language to see the depth of the chasm between humans and other animals. and yes, i mean the good AND the bad.
there's an amazing passage from "The World I Live In" by Helen Keller that describes the nature of her consciousness before and after she learnt language. i highly recommend reading it. i can't find the excerpt, but the whole text is on google books for free...
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: faceofbear]
#7664343 - 11/21/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
in my opinion, humans are as much animals as anything else. we don't stand out very much other than the fact that we learned how to dominate every other species. we used our intelligence to trick animals. i guess you can argue with that and say we can think ahead and all that jazz...
but is it so different than the spider that hides in a hole waiting for its prey?
or the parrot that knows that if it mimics the sounds of other animals it can scare away the ones that will eat it?
or like whoever said about the ape who uses the stick to check the depth of water.
i think we, as humans, like to have power over the other animals.. we like to be in control and in having the intelligence and number to pull it off... we do it.
food for thought, about worrying about death: do you think a rabbit is not worried about dying when its chased by the fox?
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
Edited by igwna (11/21/07 06:52 PM)
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: igwna]
#7664400 - 11/21/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7670442 - 11/23/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Sorry, I will keep short at the moment. One comment:
Quote:
And sheetahs can run faster than us and it has incredible hunting abilities, dolphins can swim like no other human and cats can fall on their paws. What's the difference? All (humans, sheetahs, dolphins, cats and so on) adapt to the conditions they live in. So how can you determine that the way we adapted is better than how the rest of the animals did?
That's easy. We can develop means to perform their specieal powers, while they can not do that.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
|
Bullshit. We are animals. It is our saving grace.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7672737 - 11/23/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
We are manimals.
And I have the horns and tail to prove it.
--------------------
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
|
You have to do something about that smile though, if you want to be believed.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7672845 - 11/23/07 10:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You know what I like, baby.
--------------------
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7673444 - 11/24/07 03:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Sorry, I will keep short at the moment. One comment:
Quote:
And sheetahs can run faster than us and it has incredible hunting abilities, dolphins can swim like no other human and cats can fall on their paws. What's the difference? All (humans, sheetahs, dolphins, cats and so on) adapt to the conditions they live in. So how can you determine that the way we adapted is better than how the rest of the animals did?
That's easy. We can develop means to perform their specieal powers, while they can not do that.
The ability to develop means to perform the special powers of other animals is our special power.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7673645 - 11/24/07 06:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Another remark:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
[...]Second point: The developement of consciousness in human form is unique on this planet, provable by means of interactive communication, for second example. We are most 'communicative' with any other things and subjects, than any other subject or thing are with us.
And since when being talkative is a sign of being aware?  I know LOTS of extremely talkative persons and which I wouldn't exactly call intelligent, as well as other (not so many) quiet people who are very smart and aware. Besides, other animals do communicate with each other. The fact that we're unable to understand them is something different. It simply means that WE are incapable of communicating with them.
I didn't mean the quantity of random output  I compare our filth of communication with the different forms of existence in quantity and quality, to the communication abilities of this kind of other kind of beings (animals). This is a matter of time-advantage in the race of evolution, but it points towards something bigger, imho. Many of us are far ahead of animals, which is by no means any automatism  Maybe the advantage lies simply in our capabilities.
|
psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7673695 - 11/24/07 07:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Define "far ahead," please?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

|
MOTH
Wild Woman


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7673704 - 11/24/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I believe in the human animal. I see more similarities in behavior with other animals then differences.
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MOTH]
#7673746 - 11/24/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
We see these similarities because we evolved from animals, and the differences, well, are enhancements of behaviors such as playfulness, curiosity, etc.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
machination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7673811 - 11/24/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
life is life-when you categorize you forget the unity-man is animak
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: machination]
#7673840 - 11/24/07 08:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Man is an animal. To say our cognitive abilities separate us from animals is to assume we've found all the animals in existence (not even close) and understood their thoughts enough to deem that they are beneath us (also a near impossibility)
What would we do if we found a small life form on earth that also used tool to the extent that we do? Would it be classified as an animal, or a human? If you can categorize humans differently based on such things, then you must also categorize animals that meet that criteria as human as well.
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
In the context of giving classroom presentations on human sexuality every spring to 8th graders, I stress the point that we call ourselves human beings, not human mammals. I then point out that a 'being' is better defined philosophically or spiritually than biologically. Biology decribes our mammalian identity as warm-blooded animals.
That being the case, I also point out that unlike other animals, human actions are always moral or immoral, they are never amoral. A lioness taking down a zebra on the Serengeti is not committing murder. (Perhaps, one might argue, that one lion killing another lion in a fight for dominance would be a better parallel for murder - as killing one's own 'kind'). In the context of our instinctual life - self-preservation and preservation of the species - moral choice must necessarily be a major component. We, as developed human beings, don't merely eat, we dine. This really doesn't include adolescents, if you've ever spent any time with them , but I said developed human beings. Sexually, we don't, as developed human beings, merely copulate, we make love. Again, looking at 20-something late adolescents, this also doesn't hold true (particularly in Miami-Ft. Lauderdale, the #1 and #2 highest HIV/AIDS infected cities in the entire USA, year after year ).
Nevertheless, a moral imperative either guides a human's instinctual life or it does not. And, there are gradations and gender differences of moral development (see Lawrence Kohlberg and Carol Gilligan, respectively). Living out of 'real' morality, altruism, compassion, rather than out of the fear of being caught or "law and order" morality of rigidly following orders , really separates the 'wheat from the chaff' when it comes to having moral development. I've always believed that acting like a BoyScout or GirlScout doesn't make on holy, but that the experience of holiness, of the Transcendent results in moral action. Only then can continued moral action (the Buddhist 'Skillful Means') develop in oneself greater wisdom or holiness. Halfway measures only leave us as 'centaurs' or 'satyrs' - mostly animal with some human attributes.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/24/07 11:47 AM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: That being the case, I also point out that unlike other animals, human actions ar always moral or immoral, they are never amoral.
This morning for breakfast, I could drink coffee or tea. Is this decision moral or immoral?
--------------------
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Silversoul]
#7674278 - 11/24/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
As I said: "In the context of giving classroom presentations on human sexuality...," and although I said "...human actions are always moral or immoral...," it was still in the same context. However, like the moratorium on grape and lettuce pickers in the late 60s, if migrant workers were treated much worse picking coffee over those picking tea, then there would be an obvious moral choice to be made. The decision is not always based on obvious evidence, and all moral decisions are not life-or-death issues. [Wise ass ]
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
|
I think you're still wrong here. In the context of war, if killing immoral, or moral? Does the answer change depending on the circumstances of the war? What about when someone practices cannibalism to save their own life. Is this immoral? I would think it would be hard if not impossible to label such activities as either, and therefore they could be classified as amoral.
|
ZShroom
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1,061
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7674915 - 11/24/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Did'nt read any of the above posts, but, if you look around everything living is animals and plants, (of coarse including smaller cells which make up the whole). So with that being said we must be one or the other.
--------------------
|
ZShroom
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1,061
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: ZShroom]
#7674936 - 11/24/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
This post brings me back to my last trip. Learning of how man evolved from animal, just thinking how "morals" and language and all of the things that make us "human" is really just bullshit created by the mind we came into owning. Our minds are more advanced now and that has only been problems for our race. We really have just learned that we all are violent animals with "rules" now and laws to stop what naturally happens by instinct which has gotten us to this point. We are at the end of our rope in my opinion due to the raw nature of us as people not being able to handle our own environment. Kill or be killed, been the law since the beginning of what we call the beginning.
--------------------
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: xFrockx]
#7675202 - 11/24/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Cannabalism would be immoral if the deceased was murdered for food, but moral if the deceased died of accidental or natural causes. The remains could sustain a survivor in dire need. Tibetan Buddhists dismembered their dead and fed them to scavenger birds rather than merely burn the remains.
Stopping genocide by force - preventing the slaughter of innocents - is clearly a lesser evil than allowing it to go on unchecked. Not to kill the baby-slayer is to kill the baby. Invading a land for its valuables (like the US for oil) is immoral. There is no amorality except, perhaps, among the less than 1% of individuals who are deemed 'insane' by a court of law. Insanity is a legal term, not a clinical term and it suggests a true inability to decide right from wrong, based on radically flawed reality-testing (confusing fantasy from actuality).
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
|
By fighting another nation, even one committing genocide, one will always think that their own side is the "moral" one. Morals are so relative I would tend to err towards thinking that all human behavior is amoral, it all just depends on which side you are on.
I could make "what ifs" all day, and you could twist them into moral judgements all day, but when it comes down to it, whats moral for you might be immoral to me, and because of this it is asinine to think that there is a clear-cut "moral or immoral" label for every human behavior. Surely you must realize this.
|
Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
|
Perhaps morality and immorality do manifest in other animals? I remember reading about some monkeys who ganged up and killed other monkeys. I've read about two male dolphins ganging up on a female dolphin and leading her astray so they could have some fun.
These occurances seem to only be observed in the more intelligent mammals. If we can accept that evolution occurs, it seems rather odd that it would lead to intentional pain and suffering. On some level, immorality seems less a matter of willful intent to commit evil, and more a state of confusion. The more intelligent an animal, the more likely confusion becomes.
If other animals are able to continue evolving, they will experience more morality and immorality.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: xFrockx]
#7675650 - 11/24/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Compassion is my standard upon which morality is based. Compassion is unmediated by social/cultural constraints, by ideological concerns, and it is the Heart of true religion IMO.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
|
|
Ok then, what if someone goes insane and looses the ability to feel compassion. Are they amoral, or ahuman?
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: xFrockx]
#7677170 - 11/25/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Depends on how you define humanity. Clearly, one does not lose one's obvious biological form, but the not so visible stuff, the brain chemistry, states of consciousness and perhaps even corresponding facial expressions and body language might morph into unusual if not unnatural configurations.
In Robert Louis Stephenson's The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde was made into several different films over the years. In the earlier ones, like with Spencer Tracer, Mr. Hyde didn't become all hairy and anthropoid like the later ones. As a kid, I was dissapointed by the lack of Hollywood monstronsity, but now as an adult I can appreciate the more subtle approach. The story line was actually about Stephenson's cocaine habit which made a monster of him and brought out his evil side (Note: The December 1, 2007 issue of Time Magazine. The cover story 'What Makes Us Good/Evil').
When one is said to 'lose his humanity,' we understand that it means to lose compassion, empathy, conscience, remorse, not that one has lost one's basic biological nature. Clearly, one's social, emotional, intellectual and sexual aspects are radically effected by a serial killer who kidnaps, rapes, murders and practices necrophilia and necrophagia. These are the ghouls of the world, yet they have not been able to escape punishment 'by reason of insanity' because they are methodical thinkers who do not wish to get caught and stopped. They are inhuman in this respect, and they are also immoral since they 'know' that it is wrong, yet, lacking remorse, they do not care. Lacking empathy, they cannot 'feel' why it is wrong, they simply 'know' how others would react to his treatment of victims and they do not want those reactive people to find him out and stop his fun.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
When one is said to 'lose his humanity,' we understand that it means to lose compassion, empathy, conscience, remorse,
This is the point. Your defining of what is human is subjective. They haven't "lost" those qualities, they just don't use them. It's not like the fact that I have compassion and empathy means I can't act without them and often do.
To be human is to be a biological animal and that is the end of the story no matter how one wants to define the term within the emotional framework of their subjective desires.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7677328 - 11/25/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"To be human is to be a biological animal and that is the end of the story no matter how one wants to define the term within the emotional framework of their subjective desires."
That's just ridiculous. You do not have a very fleshed-out sense of human identity if that is what you 'believe.'
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
|
To quote Ken Wilber, "include and transcend."
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Sorry to step on your toes but saying That's just ridiculous. Is not an argument. (unless you are fundamentalist)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7677382 - 11/25/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Steel-toed boots, no problem. Hope you didn't hurt your sole. It was simply dismissive and doesn't even warrant an argument. I do not define my identity in purely biological terms because the only purely biological human being is a corpse, near as I can tell, and according to the Tibetans, I'm not even certain about that.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
why humans are not animals
Title of thread.
I don't care how you define your identify. Anyone can define themselves anyway they want and do but the defining factor is biology.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7677612 - 11/25/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The defining factor is consciousness. I am not a materialist, although I have been a biologist, and then I realized I was a human being.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
A human bean? That doesn't sound right.
All animals are conscious.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
budmanman
OTD Masterbater



Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 17,975
Loc: PNW
|
|
and a dog is a dog being. This is stupid.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: budmanman]
#7678045 - 11/25/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
the distinction between human animals and all the other animals is that when they mate with eachother baby human animals will be the issue as opposed to other animals, and if they mate with other animals nothing will be the issue. we are species selective for conception. nothing remains closly related enough to even produce a mule- (i.e. donkey horse hybrids are sterile mules) (we wiped out the neanderthals etc. while competing for real estate and resources)
as for consciousness, all the animals have it, to greater and lesser degrees including memory, language, guile, humor and a sense of beauty and security. animals even have innate moral sense to some degree.
the human associative process is more highly developed than in other animals but it is a process that already exists in their minds. we (most of us) just have more brains per ounce of fat than the other animals.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
This is a good reply and I for one can make a pretty good guess at where our ideas of spirituality come from.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7678425 - 11/25/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Reflective self-consciousness. Being conscious of consciousness, even Pure Consciousness. Perhaps they are aware of awareness, but as difficult as it is for humans to experience this rigpa consciousness (or whatever one wishes to call it), transcending the distractions of sensory inmput, emotions and thoughts, I suspect that animals other than Homo sapien sapien do not experience this. On the other hand, perhaps in the absence of linguistic thinking, they ARE more aware of simple Being than we are.
"A human bean? That doesn't sound right. "
Hey, "Soylent Green is people!"
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Reflective self-consciousness.
You mean like looking at ourselves in the mirror and thinking "there must be more to this"?
Thus was "God" discovered and made manifest. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7678559 - 11/25/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The point of the thread was not to point out that humans are not animals or biological in any way. The point was to discuss some unique characteristics of humans. Of course humans are animals, and we are even plants if you want to take the analogy farther (use the sun for sustenance?)
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Very misleading title.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7678591 - 11/25/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
To err is human, to forgive divine.
Be a little bit more spiritual and get off my back
--------------------
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: psyka]
#7678690 - 11/25/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
psyka said: Define "far ahead," please?
Advanced.
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7678700 - 11/25/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The surgeons must have really put a spit-shine on that silver plate you have in your head.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
|
|
products of extra bits of associative mind: singing songs telling stories making theater ritualistic religions colorful games art science music literature money architecture all the abstractions that are substantial as subjects in themselves which can be dealt with in courses in university but still relate in some way to life. animals that are not human have little access to such structured abstractions or to the idea of school and being a student (separate from being immature).
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: ...I also point out that unlike other animals, human actions are always moral or immoral...
I consider a sense of morality to be an adaptation or exaptation, yet I oddly agree with most of what you said about moral development.
Except, of course, the part about us not being animals and that the experience of holiness results in moral action. If chimps and dolphins had the neurocognitive structures needed to talk about being, I bet they'd call themselves "chimp beings" and "dolphin beings" too. I highly doubt human beings are the only creatures that are conscious.
Unfortunately, I cannot refute what you have said, maybe someone else could - but not a crude materialist like me. It all essentially rests on the primacy of consciousness and that is an arena of thought which I have little experience in.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: To err is human, to forgive divine.
Be a little bit more spiritual and get off my back
I don't believe in spirituality. Sorry.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7704638 - 12/01/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7713910 - 12/04/07 03:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shakercee said: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/11/25/eagorilla125.xml
Well, after reading it, i would say they are headed in the right direction.
awesome! i love how everyone links me interesting things to read 
too bad we don't have any videos of gorillas throwing rocks at people :P
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
I was just remembering a scene in Waking Life where a guy is saying that there is a greater difference between the average person and a genius like Plato or Newton than there is between the average person and the average chimpanzee. Agree or disagree?
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Silversoul]
#7714785 - 12/04/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Disagree.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
remnant
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 25
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7715572 - 12/04/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
wow... 6 pages of insecure bullshit... ...to think i used to respect this place
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: remnant]
#7715650 - 12/04/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
remnant said: wow... 6 pages of insecure bullshit... ...to think i used to respect this place
If you were wrong in your previous assessment of this site, could you not be wrong with your current assessment?
--------------------
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
|
Not until next time
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7716049 - 12/04/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
At least one reader 'gets it'.
--------------------
|
remnant
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 25
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
|
|
your going to have to dazzle after this ...but i wont rule it out
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: why humans are not animals [Re: remnant]
#7719086 - 12/05/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Please contribute on-topic posts to avoid even more BS
|
|