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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Bullshit. We are animals. It is our saving grace.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7672737 - 11/23/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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We are manimals.
And I have the horns and tail to prove it.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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You have to do something about that smile though, if you want to be believed.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7672845 - 11/23/07 10:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You know what I like, baby.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7673444 - 11/24/07 03:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Sorry, I will keep short at the moment. One comment:
Quote:
And sheetahs can run faster than us and it has incredible hunting abilities, dolphins can swim like no other human and cats can fall on their paws. What's the difference? All (humans, sheetahs, dolphins, cats and so on) adapt to the conditions they live in. So how can you determine that the way we adapted is better than how the rest of the animals did?
That's easy. We can develop means to perform their specieal powers, while they can not do that.
The ability to develop means to perform the special powers of other animals is our special power.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7673645 - 11/24/07 06:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Another remark:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
[...]Second point: The developement of consciousness in human form is unique on this planet, provable by means of interactive communication, for second example. We are most 'communicative' with any other things and subjects, than any other subject or thing are with us.
And since when being talkative is a sign of being aware?  I know LOTS of extremely talkative persons and which I wouldn't exactly call intelligent, as well as other (not so many) quiet people who are very smart and aware. Besides, other animals do communicate with each other. The fact that we're unable to understand them is something different. It simply means that WE are incapable of communicating with them.
I didn't mean the quantity of random output  I compare our filth of communication with the different forms of existence in quantity and quality, to the communication abilities of this kind of other kind of beings (animals). This is a matter of time-advantage in the race of evolution, but it points towards something bigger, imho. Many of us are far ahead of animals, which is by no means any automatism  Maybe the advantage lies simply in our capabilities.
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7673695 - 11/24/07 07:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Define "far ahead," please?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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MOTH
Wild Woman


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7673704 - 11/24/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I believe in the human animal. I see more similarities in behavior with other animals then differences.
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MOTH]
#7673746 - 11/24/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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We see these similarities because we evolved from animals, and the differences, well, are enhancements of behaviors such as playfulness, curiosity, etc.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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machination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7673811 - 11/24/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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life is life-when you categorize you forget the unity-man is animak
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: machination]
#7673840 - 11/24/07 08:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Man is an animal. To say our cognitive abilities separate us from animals is to assume we've found all the animals in existence (not even close) and understood their thoughts enough to deem that they are beneath us (also a near impossibility)
What would we do if we found a small life form on earth that also used tool to the extent that we do? Would it be classified as an animal, or a human? If you can categorize humans differently based on such things, then you must also categorize animals that meet that criteria as human as well.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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In the context of giving classroom presentations on human sexuality every spring to 8th graders, I stress the point that we call ourselves human beings, not human mammals. I then point out that a 'being' is better defined philosophically or spiritually than biologically. Biology decribes our mammalian identity as warm-blooded animals.
That being the case, I also point out that unlike other animals, human actions are always moral or immoral, they are never amoral. A lioness taking down a zebra on the Serengeti is not committing murder. (Perhaps, one might argue, that one lion killing another lion in a fight for dominance would be a better parallel for murder - as killing one's own 'kind'). In the context of our instinctual life - self-preservation and preservation of the species - moral choice must necessarily be a major component. We, as developed human beings, don't merely eat, we dine. This really doesn't include adolescents, if you've ever spent any time with them , but I said developed human beings. Sexually, we don't, as developed human beings, merely copulate, we make love. Again, looking at 20-something late adolescents, this also doesn't hold true (particularly in Miami-Ft. Lauderdale, the #1 and #2 highest HIV/AIDS infected cities in the entire USA, year after year ).
Nevertheless, a moral imperative either guides a human's instinctual life or it does not. And, there are gradations and gender differences of moral development (see Lawrence Kohlberg and Carol Gilligan, respectively). Living out of 'real' morality, altruism, compassion, rather than out of the fear of being caught or "law and order" morality of rigidly following orders , really separates the 'wheat from the chaff' when it comes to having moral development. I've always believed that acting like a BoyScout or GirlScout doesn't make on holy, but that the experience of holiness, of the Transcendent results in moral action. Only then can continued moral action (the Buddhist 'Skillful Means') develop in oneself greater wisdom or holiness. Halfway measures only leave us as 'centaurs' or 'satyrs' - mostly animal with some human attributes.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/24/07 11:47 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: That being the case, I also point out that unlike other animals, human actions ar always moral or immoral, they are never amoral.
This morning for breakfast, I could drink coffee or tea. Is this decision moral or immoral?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Silversoul]
#7674278 - 11/24/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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As I said: "In the context of giving classroom presentations on human sexuality...," and although I said "...human actions are always moral or immoral...," it was still in the same context. However, like the moratorium on grape and lettuce pickers in the late 60s, if migrant workers were treated much worse picking coffee over those picking tea, then there would be an obvious moral choice to be made. The decision is not always based on obvious evidence, and all moral decisions are not life-or-death issues. [Wise ass ]
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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I think you're still wrong here. In the context of war, if killing immoral, or moral? Does the answer change depending on the circumstances of the war? What about when someone practices cannibalism to save their own life. Is this immoral? I would think it would be hard if not impossible to label such activities as either, and therefore they could be classified as amoral.
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ZShroom
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1,061
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7674915 - 11/24/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Did'nt read any of the above posts, but, if you look around everything living is animals and plants, (of coarse including smaller cells which make up the whole). So with that being said we must be one or the other.
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ZShroom
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1,061
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: ZShroom]
#7674936 - 11/24/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This post brings me back to my last trip. Learning of how man evolved from animal, just thinking how "morals" and language and all of the things that make us "human" is really just bullshit created by the mind we came into owning. Our minds are more advanced now and that has only been problems for our race. We really have just learned that we all are violent animals with "rules" now and laws to stop what naturally happens by instinct which has gotten us to this point. We are at the end of our rope in my opinion due to the raw nature of us as people not being able to handle our own environment. Kill or be killed, been the law since the beginning of what we call the beginning.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: xFrockx]
#7675202 - 11/24/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cannabalism would be immoral if the deceased was murdered for food, but moral if the deceased died of accidental or natural causes. The remains could sustain a survivor in dire need. Tibetan Buddhists dismembered their dead and fed them to scavenger birds rather than merely burn the remains.
Stopping genocide by force - preventing the slaughter of innocents - is clearly a lesser evil than allowing it to go on unchecked. Not to kill the baby-slayer is to kill the baby. Invading a land for its valuables (like the US for oil) is immoral. There is no amorality except, perhaps, among the less than 1% of individuals who are deemed 'insane' by a court of law. Insanity is a legal term, not a clinical term and it suggests a true inability to decide right from wrong, based on radically flawed reality-testing (confusing fantasy from actuality).
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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By fighting another nation, even one committing genocide, one will always think that their own side is the "moral" one. Morals are so relative I would tend to err towards thinking that all human behavior is amoral, it all just depends on which side you are on.
I could make "what ifs" all day, and you could twist them into moral judgements all day, but when it comes down to it, whats moral for you might be immoral to me, and because of this it is asinine to think that there is a clear-cut "moral or immoral" label for every human behavior. Surely you must realize this.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Perhaps morality and immorality do manifest in other animals? I remember reading about some monkeys who ganged up and killed other monkeys. I've read about two male dolphins ganging up on a female dolphin and leading her astray so they could have some fun.
These occurances seem to only be observed in the more intelligent mammals. If we can accept that evolution occurs, it seems rather odd that it would lead to intentional pain and suffering. On some level, immorality seems less a matter of willful intent to commit evil, and more a state of confusion. The more intelligent an animal, the more likely confusion becomes.
If other animals are able to continue evolving, they will experience more morality and immorality.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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