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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7658800 - 11/20/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: We are still animals, but we are quite ahead of the rest of them.
Not only a subjective opinion but a prejudiced one to boot and based on speculation.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Silversoul]
#7658806 - 11/20/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I think we're one of the most interesting animals out there.
Of course you would. It's called self-importance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: shakercee]
#7658813 - 11/20/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakercee said:
Well, yeah if we are animals, we wouldn't have to worry about death. But we do.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe you just said that. Did you miss out on schooling or something?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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vaportrail
upandaway



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658826 - 11/20/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've seen a dog skateboard, a chimp drive a jeep, I've been working with a crew of bricklayers for six months welcome to the jungle
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658830 - 11/20/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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no..worry in the sense of what would happen after death.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7658853 - 11/20/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: We are still animals, but we are quite ahead of the rest of them.
Not only a subjective opinion but a prejudiced one to boot and based on speculation.
 The specification of our tools to our unique realisations of mindful concepts to create our reality is only one example of our capabilities. Of course, not nearly everyone uses them for their benefit, or uses them at all, which would make them not so quite ahead of animals. And of course, these mental abilities can reflect back, in their non- or mal-usage, on a level lower than animal being.
But even then, there exist 'hysteric' (edit for clarification:neurotic) animals 
We can use an animal-psychologist, from time to time
Edited by BlueCoyote (11/20/07 12:28 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Rose]
#7658925 - 11/20/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: That said, I wonder what humpback whales are saying in their LONG songs...
It is probably something more like, "Let's Get it On..."
"Let's Get it On" ~ Marvin Graye Whale
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7659168 - 11/20/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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so quite ahead of animals.
We are animals. Don't they teach that in Germany.
And you of course know the capabilities of all other animals and so can make your comparison.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7659804 - 11/20/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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you are right i am a worm i ran a scissorslift for some bricklayers they dropped lots of mortar what can I say we are animals i would not have it any other way.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7662189 - 11/21/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: so quite ahead of animals.
We are animals. Don't they teach that in Germany.
A rat race is still a rat race. Some some are ahead and some are behind. And you know the difference between genus and species ? Even a tiger is an animal, an ape is one too. So is a human. Some advanced ape. They are all the same species, but a different genus. (Or vice verse. In german they are called 'Art' and 'Gattung') Then there are differentiations amongst genus. Some crazy philosopher even called one of them genus Übermensch. Don't they teach that in america ? 
Quote:
And you of course know the capabilities of all other animals and so can make your comparison.
I see very specific specialisation within each different genera, but only a human has that a big variety to choose from, which of his abilities he wants to specialise and better. No other genus, for example, has that huge variety of tools ready for their use.
Edited by BlueCoyote (11/21/07 10:26 AM)
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
#7662190 - 11/21/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
shakercee said:
Well, yeah if we are animals, we wouldn't have to worry about death. But we do.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe you just said that. Did you miss out on schooling or something?
Dunno if they teach in schools now that animal are aware of their own death.
But it got me thinking. I came across this interesting piece of interaction between the Gorilla, Koko and and a staff member:
Quote:
Where do gorillas go when they die? Maureen asked.
Koko replied, Comfortable/hole/bye [the sign for kissing a person good-bye].
When do gorillas die? she asked.
Koko replied with the signs Trouble/old.
How do gorillas feel when they die: happy, sad, afraid?
Sleep, answered Koko.
Hmmm,don't know if this really happened.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
Edited by shakercee (11/21/07 10:17 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7663134 - 11/21/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The argument was not about who has more tools, or means of expressing oneself and so on. The subject is pretty simple: are we or are we not animals? And there's an overwhelming amount of data to sustain that we are animals. Also, I see that you agree with that too:
Quote:
Even a tiger is an animal, an ape is one too. So is a human. Some advanced ape.
Now, getting further on your comment:
Quote:
They are all the same species, but a different genus. (Or vice verse. In german they are called 'Art' and 'Gattung')
I suspect that you try to prove that we are somehow superior to the rest of the animals, since you already agreed that we might be animals after all. My question to you is: how do you know that we're far more advanced? We have so little data about how the other animals feel or think. Is it only because for us, from our perspective, we do it better, and for example, no other animal can drive a car? How do you know that this is sign of better?
Quote:
No other genus, for example, has that huge variety of tools ready for their use.
That might be mainly because of our biological form. Having hands and legs comes as a great aid in all that.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7663307 - 11/21/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: The argument was not about who has more tools, or means of expressing oneself and so on. The subject is pretty simple: are we or are we not animals? And there's an overwhelming amount of data to sustain that we are animals. Also, I see that you agree with that too:
Quote:
Even a tiger is an animal, an ape is one too. So is a human. Some advanced ape.
Now, getting further on your comment:
Quote:
They are all the same species, but a different genus. (Or vice verse. In german they are called 'Art' and 'Gattung')
I suspect that you try to prove that we are somehow superior to the rest of the animals, since you already agreed that we might be animals after all. My question to you is: how do you know that we're far more advanced? We have so little data about how the other animals feel or think. Is it only because for us, from our perspective, we do it better, and for example, no other animal can drive a car? How do you know that this is sign of better?
Quote:
No other genus, for example, has that huge variety of tools ready for their use.
That might be mainly because of our biological form. Having hands and legs comes as a great aid in all that.
Basically what I was trying to say earlier.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: andrewss]
#7663399 - 11/21/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here is some stuff I looked up on the Gorilla Koko... pretty interesting stuff:
Quote:
"Koko has at least nine hundred words at her signing disposal. She can link them up in statements of up to eight words. All this is documented. Her creative transformations, her creative play with language--her creativity per se--may be more interesting. It's also more elusive and harder to quantify.
Koko refers to ice cream as "my cold cup." A ring becomes "finger bracelet." Nectarine yogurt translates into "orange flower sauce." The gorilla can keep rhythm when asked. She has no trouble decoding pig Latin. She lies when it suits her. "Who broke the kitchen sink?" one of the staff asks her. Koko indicates another staff member, whirls about and starts to laugh. The gorilla has her favorite insults too, not unlike those of small children. "Dirty stupid toilet," she signs. She understands that color carries emotional weight. When angry, she sometimes describes herself as "red rotten mad."
Quote:
Koko, it seems, is always listening. One day Patterson was talking to another staff member within earshot of the gorilla. "Going to Los Angeles once a month will kill me," she was saying. Koko approached. She and Patterson had previously talked seriously about death. Patterson had asked Koko about her understanding of it, and the gorilla had responded, "Trouble old ... comfortable hole bye ... sleep." Death in the abstract had seemed to suggest peace to the gorilla. But now she was agitated and signing "frown, frown, frown, frown, frown." Only after Patterson explained that she wasn't about to do anything that was going to get her killed, did Koko relax. Now Patterson and the staff have taken to spelling such hot items.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7663402 - 11/21/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'll use simplification now. One point, the difference may only be the gap in time in relation to the exponential aspect of evolution. Meaning, if any species would be given enough time, they would develop cars and guns and such. But we are 'in some way' ahead of them in evolution.
Second point: The developement of consciousness in human form is unique on this planet, provable by means of interactive communication, for second example. We are most 'communicative' with any other things and subjects, than any other subject or thing are with us.
The difference in the evolutionary advance of humans which I called 'better' or 'ahead', for me is obvious. How this 'special' difference can be seen seems in one way not clear: Is it continuous from animal to human, or is there some jump or gap, which makes a clear cut. From this perspective, a spiritual definition would make sense, in which the 'better' would be defined as the more accurate expression of spirit, through consciousness into our realm of common existence.
(sorry for bad wording)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7663512 - 11/21/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'll use simplification now. One point, the difference may only be the gap in time in relation to the exponential aspect of evolution. Meaning, if any species would be given enough time, they would develop cars and guns and such. But we are 'in some way' ahead of them in evolution.
Well, that's exactly what I was arguing about. This "in some way" is too undefined and blurry to be able to make a proper calculation. What is exactly it? Like I said before, we know too little about what animals feel and think, so jumping into conclusion might leave us with an erroneous idea. But what is obvious is that other animals DO show signs of thinking, sometimes very much so.
Quote:
Second point: The developement of consciousness in human form is unique on this planet, provable by means of interactive communication, for second example. We are most 'communicative' with any other things and subjects, than any other subject or thing are with us.
And since when being talkative is a sign of being aware?  I know LOTS of extremely talkative persons and which I wouldn't exactly call intelligent, as well as other (not so many) quiet people who are very smart and aware. Besides, other animals do communicate with each other. The fact that we're unable to understand them is something different. It simply means that WE are incapable of communicating with them.
Quote:
The difference in the evolutionary advance of humans which I called 'better' or 'ahead', for me is obvious. How this 'special' difference can be seen seems in one way not clear: Is it continuous from animal to human, or is there some jump or gap, which makes a clear cut. From this perspective, a spiritual definition would make sense, in which the 'better' would be defined as the more accurate expression of spirit, through consciousness into our realm of common existence.
And sheetahs can run faster than us and it has incredible hunting abilities, dolphins can swim like no other human and cats can fall on their paws. What's the difference? All (humans, sheetahs, dolphins, cats and so on) adapt to the conditions they live in. So how can you determine that the way we adapted is better than how the rest of the animals did?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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faceofbear
the witch-doctorlife



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7664013 - 11/21/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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man is the animal with logos (the word)
it is, more than anything, our language that differentiates us from other animals. our use of language allows us to create concepts, abstractions by which fundamentally human thought processes are possible at all.
studies with gorillas like Koko indicate the cognitive capacity for other primates to learn language that encompasses limited concept use, but whether they can develop such languages themselves is another matter. we need only look to what we have done with our language to see the depth of the chasm between humans and other animals. and yes, i mean the good AND the bad.
there's an amazing passage from "The World I Live In" by Helen Keller that describes the nature of her consciousness before and after she learnt language. i highly recommend reading it. i can't find the excerpt, but the whole text is on google books for free...
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igwna
The Cap'n


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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: faceofbear]
#7664343 - 11/21/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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in my opinion, humans are as much animals as anything else. we don't stand out very much other than the fact that we learned how to dominate every other species. we used our intelligence to trick animals. i guess you can argue with that and say we can think ahead and all that jazz...
but is it so different than the spider that hides in a hole waiting for its prey?
or the parrot that knows that if it mimics the sounds of other animals it can scare away the ones that will eat it?
or like whoever said about the ape who uses the stick to check the depth of water.
i think we, as humans, like to have power over the other animals.. we like to be in control and in having the intelligence and number to pull it off... we do it.
food for thought, about worrying about death: do you think a rabbit is not worried about dying when its chased by the fox?
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
Edited by igwna (11/21/07 06:52 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: igwna]
#7664400 - 11/21/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7670442 - 11/23/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry, I will keep short at the moment. One comment:
Quote:
And sheetahs can run faster than us and it has incredible hunting abilities, dolphins can swim like no other human and cats can fall on their paws. What's the difference? All (humans, sheetahs, dolphins, cats and so on) adapt to the conditions they live in. So how can you determine that the way we adapted is better than how the rest of the animals did?
That's easy. We can develop means to perform their specieal powers, while they can not do that.
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