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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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why humans are not animals
    #7653218 - 11/19/07 12:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

list some reasons why humans are not "just animals" (whatever that means) and why reality is not a singular.. i dont even know the word.. (scientific?) story

1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds

2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)

3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.

What is language anyways? There is something wrong with language.. It can't create anything. It's all the same damn word. It's like every word is the same damn word.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653244 - 11/19/07 12:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds


So do many other animals. All pack animals do this... also, birds... fish... etc...

Quote:


2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)



Ridiculous indeed... and false. Many other animals can be psychologically disturbed (and therefore effected) by things they perceived incorrectly. Birds... dogs... primates... felines... etc..

Quote:


3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.


Holy run-on sentence Batman!

Anyway, you're sorta' right and sorta' wrong on this thought.

If the experiences of an animal are studied, and the psychology of the species is fully understood... you can accurately predict how almost any animal (including individual humans) will react to any situation. So if a scientist ever says humans and animals have similar realities and/orexperiences... they'll probably know what they're talking about.

Humans are far more complex creatively than other animals. And yet from afar, we are very similar to ants.


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Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/19/07 12:58 AM)


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Rose]
    #7653288 - 11/19/07 01:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:


1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds


So do many other animals. All pack animals do this... also, birds... fish... etc...




Can an animal convince another animal of something? Can they negotiate and bargain and come to an agreement about something?

Quote:


2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)



Quote:

Ridiculous indeed... and false. Many other animals can be psychologically disturbed (and therefore effected) by things they perceived incorrectly. Birds... dogs... primates... felines... etc..




What do you mean perceive incorrectly?... or psychologically disturbed? Can you tell me what the mind of a lunatic chicken is like and how he is perceiving incorrectly?

Quote:


3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.


Quote:

Holy run-on sentence Batman!

Anyway, you're sorta' right and sorta' wrong on this thought.

If the experiences of an animal are studied, and the psychology of the species is fully understood... you can accurately predict how almost any animal (including individual humans) will react to any situation. So if a scientist ever says humans and animals have similar realities and/orexperiences... they'll probably know what they're talking about.

Humans are far more complex creatively than other animals. And yet from afar, we are very similar to ants.




Personally I think science generalizes far too much and has it's own story which is very limited and not very creative. How can a scientist possibly claim to know the reality of a dolphin by studying it's behavior? Science claims to know how our minds work, how our thoughts are produced, but I don't think we fully understand why we do anything at all. The interpretation of our behavior is always after the fact and is always a story.

My motivation for this post can't be explained by any other method than analogically.

We are similar to ants, this is true. But this is so far from what we actually are. If we look at humans from a human perspective and not a scientific perspective, we are nothing less than a conscious reality which can create infinite associations and infinite layers of experience. It's baffling to think how FREE the mind is.





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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653297 - 11/19/07 01:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I take it back, animals can definitely intend to produce an effect on another animal's state of mind, because this rabbit is definitely fucking with this snake:
http://www.livevideo.com/video/jlstigger70/4A40CC7759F04079BF3069F390FE6046/funny-video-snake-versus-rabb.aspx

But what I really mean is that animals do not live by stories, this seems to be a very human trait


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653304 - 11/19/07 01:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Story: Users EternalCowabunga and Cervantes are having a Debate


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653308 - 11/19/07 01:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
But what I really mean is that animals do not live by stories, this seems to be a very human trait



I agree with this. Humans have taken animal creativity to a uniquely complex level. Hollywood is uniquely human.

That said, I wonder what humpback whales are saying in their LONG songs...


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Fiddlesticks.



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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Rose]
    #7653359 - 11/19/07 01:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
But what I really mean is that animals do not live by stories, this seems to be a very human trait



I agree with this. Humans have taken animal creativity to a uniquely complex level. Hollywood is uniquely human.

That said, I wonder what humpback whales are saying in their LONG songs...




"fuck off, this is my fucking territory" -whale song in english


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7653391 - 11/19/07 02:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Doubt it...

It is probably something more like, "Let's Get it On..."


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653409 - 11/19/07 02:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Many animals have specialized adaptations to suit their survival, too. We humans have a specialized frontal lobe, which allows us to draw out concepts and ideas about predictions. This is central for tool making, and survival planning.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8073.html - A great ape uses a stick to test the depth of water before wading through. Which address points #1, and #2 that you have made. #3 isn't addressable, and isn't a valid point.

We are animals, with a specialized brain, whereas other animals specialize in different means to survival. Yes, we are dramatically different (and fortunate), but we are still animals.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653427 - 11/19/07 02:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We learned to talk.

But yeah, seems likely we are just animals - why should humans consider themselves anymore expendable than bacteria?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Ego Death]
    #7653594 - 11/19/07 06:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We have language.

While I won't get too far into into it, (because I'm not overly familiar with the semantics), we have "self-awareness", and a concept of self which is much different than that of an animal.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineLion
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7653601 - 11/19/07 06:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We also have humor and sarcasm. I'd like to hear someone explain these mechanisms from an evolutionary standpoint. Are they just emergent properties of self-awareness? How can things be so damn funny?? Why don't other animals laugh? Or do they? I think I've seen monkeys and great apes yukking it up.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Lion]
    #7653616 - 11/19/07 06:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bug said:
Why don't other animals laugh? Or do they? I think I've seen monkeys and great apes yukking it up.




for the same reasons they can't talk as we do

have you ever seen another animal smile? have you ever seen another animal smile because of the action of another smile?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineLion
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: demiu5]
    #7653620 - 11/19/07 06:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

have you ever seen another animal smile?


Yeah, gorillas and chimps can smile. I'm pretty sure they laugh too. It just seems kind of weird to me. Language is one thing because it gave us an evolutionary advantage in communication, but laughter and humor seem to be in no way advantageous to survival, so why do they exist?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: why humans are not animals *DELETED* [Re: Lion]
    #7653808 - 11/19/07 08:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by soulcircus (11/19/07 08:18 AM)


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OfflineTrippinNinjaBuddha
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: soulcircus]
    #7654038 - 11/19/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

'Animal' is a human concept. Everything exists as it is - separate and unique, together and collective. This pointless (but not ineloquent) debate is an example of a uniquely human behavior.


--------------------
Jumped in a river, what did I see?
Black eyed angels swimming with me
Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see
All my lovers were there with me
All my past and all my futures
We went to heaven in a little rowboat
There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7654737 - 11/19/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
list some reasons why humans are not "just animals" (whatever that means) and why reality is not a singular.. i dont even know the word.. (scientific?) story

1. we use conscious intention to produce an effect on other minds

2. We can alter the perception of our reality simply by realization of ideas. Language can create entire stories in our head which we take to be true and so they actually become true! (THAT IS RIDICULOUS)

3. The mind body is beyond our comprehension and our identification with animal form is, I would argue, wholly delusional when confronted with the fact that we have not experienced life as another animal's mind-body. To propose that we have similar realities to the experience of being a monkey or dolphin is only speculation.

What is language anyways? There is something wrong with language.. It can't create anything. It's all the same damn word. It's like every word is the same damn word. 




All I can say is :rofl2::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
    #7654769 - 11/19/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:yesnod::lol:

It's great to be a human


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7654804 - 11/19/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm glad you think so. But tell me, what do you have to compare it to?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: why humans are not animals [Re: Icelander]
    #7654816 - 11/19/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Any comparison is just a story. Analogy.

But if I were to entertain the story that I could have been an animal and it would have been less of a complex and rich experience I would say human experience is better. I like this story, it doesn't leave me with regret or loss.


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