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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
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Loc: Building 7
Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail *DELETED*
    #7650486 - 11/18/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: mrk



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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7650580 - 11/18/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I wonder what vaccinations they were.. smallpox? tb?


I live in MD... i wonder if there's any protests that are gonna be around here


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7650583 - 11/18/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Not one study, and there have been several, has found any link whatsoever between Thimerosol and autism. Further, there are thimerosol-free vaccines available if that is your complaint. Here's the answer: If your such a whacked out paranoid Jehovah's Witness-type loon that you won't have your kid vaccinated you can just home-school the future lunatic. And keep your little disease vector the fuck away from my kid. And me. Now that right there is a bona fide health concern. Also see chicken pox and pregnancy.

As to the linked rense article it would have been nice if the good doctor Blaylock had listed one single citation tieing autism to thimerosol in either that article or the one he wrote for the Journal of American Nutriceutical Association. Interesting bunch of coconuts over there too.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7650842 - 11/18/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: sapaizgay



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Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (11/18/07 12:48 PM)


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Invisiblemachination
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Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7650852 - 11/18/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

rhesus monkey semen


--------------------
"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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Invisibledemiu5
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Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7650857 - 11/18/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Here's the answer: If your such a whacked out paranoid Jehovah's Witness-type loon that you won't have your kid vaccinated you can just home-school the future lunatic. And keep your little disease vector the fuck away from my kid. And me. Now that right there is a bona fide health concern.




let's think about your statement for a minute.

1) the large majority of children are vaccinated. therefore, if the diseases have no hosts to live in, the disease does not spread. Vaccinations have been around for what, 50+ years? In this country, most of the things being vaccinated against wouldn't be a problem anymore.

2) if you and your children have already been vaccinated, then why/what do you have to worry about if another child hasn't been?


and not everyone who chooses not to have their children vaccinated have some crazed religious stance about it, so get off your high horse


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisiblemachination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: demiu5]
    #7650901 - 11/18/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

what goes into a childs body is the responsibility of the government? human instituitionalized sterilization is the inverse of health. they're probably giving the kids a chemical cocktail of sv40, thorazine, nanobots, and alien dna..


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"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: demiu5]
    #7650921 - 11/18/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Crazed religious stance is not a prerequisite for paranoid Nutranut nonsense. I said Jehovah's Witness-type. I think these whackos are adhering to their own religion of nonsense.

As to your other points, obviously the diseases have NOT been eradicated and not everybody has been vaccinated otherwise there would be no need for vaccinations at all. They also do not work perfectly. The school environment is a veritable cesspool of disease vectors, called students, held in a confined space. So now the rationale becomes, well everybody else's kid has been vaccinated so why expose my precious baba to the deadly vaccination wheel of death and brain damage.

The most likely cause of brain damage any of these kids will ever encounter are their parents.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: machination]
    #7650937 - 11/18/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

machination said:
what goes into a childs body is the responsibility of the government? human instituitionalized sterilization is the inverse of health. they're probably giving the kids a chemical cocktail of sv40, thorazine, nanobots, and alien dna..




Communicable diseases are a PUBLIC health concern. That's why we can indefinitely incarcerate (quarantine) certain disease carriers. Public health occasionally trumps individual rights. Too bad.


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Invisiblemachination
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Loc: Hringhorni
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7650983 - 11/18/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

lolzzzzzzzzzz what other public concerns call for the infringement of individual rights. unwarranted mass wiretapping/surveillance, drugs lead to the destruction of society-illegalize em? freedom of speech?

are you about the shield and sword for the party eh?
heres a new signature for you:
"Schild und Schwert der Partei"


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"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: machination]
    #7651011 - 11/18/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not sure where I fall on this. Zappa does actually bring up a good point. Even if we look at it from a Natural Rights perspective, government has the obligation to defend its citizens from coercion, and that coercion could just as easily be from a virus as from another human being. But then again, something about forcing people to submit to having a needle stuck in their arm seems like coercion as well. On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.


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Edited by Silversoul (11/18/07 01:13 PM)


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Invisibledemiu5
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Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7651050 - 11/18/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As to your other points, obviously the diseases have NOT been eradicated and not everybody has been vaccinated otherwise there would be no need for vaccinations at all.




i'd be curious to see the number of people annually admitted to a hospital or what have you for these diseases. I don't trust our gov't and just because they tell me I need this shot to protect me against something I've never had/seen anyone else have, doesn't mean I'm going to do it. In the event of children, they will not be vaccinated. there seems to me, little need for it to be done, whereas you see necessity in it.

the gov't tests all sorts of chemicals on their citizens and employees, many of which have proved to be devastating to those subjects' lives, as well as giving injections without explaining what they are or for.


And I never said a word about brain damage, that was someone else.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisibleeeso
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7651055 - 11/18/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Further, why should a parent have to know that thimerosal contains mercury and as it is clear mercury is a toxin then further know to insist on the "mercury free" vaccination?
Shouldn't it be up to the government to provide only mercury free vaccinations if that type is safer and is available?




No.
They are free to go to a private practitioner.

In addition - this article is misinformed bullshit. Utter wacked-out scaremongering bullshit.
Thimerosal does not contain methyl-mercury. It's an ethyl mercuric organometallic compound that's broken down in part to ethyl mercury in the body.
Ethyl mercury is not nearly as toxic as methyl mercury and doesn't bioaccumulate. Same with elemental mercury.

I agree that imprisonment is way over the top, but I see no issue with requiring vaccinations as a prerequisite to attending a taxpayer funded school.

-My opinions on public school notwithstanding.


Edited by eeso (11/18/07 01:33 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: demiu5]
    #7651082 - 11/18/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The brain damage thing was from the original objection wherein thimerosol was mentioned as a causative agent for autism. This is nowhere supported by any study.

Chicken pox is quite dangerous for pregnant women and their fetuses. Women of childbearing age often have contact with schoolchildren.
There is a medical opt-out form in MD. There is a religious opt-out form in MD. There is zero reason why they can not be used. (Nutraceuticalism, though having many of the trappings of a religion, is not recognized as such).


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7651258 - 11/18/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The most likely cause of brain damage any of these kids will ever encounter are their parents.




:ilold:

However, chickenpox and Hep B? Come on..that's unnecessary. Hep B CAN be bad but it's very rare and it's also not that common of a disease. If these are the diseases that people are going to get jailed for then I'm upset with the government.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: demiu5]
    #7651285 - 11/18/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Here's the answer: If your such a whacked out paranoid Jehovah's Witness-type loon that you won't have your kid vaccinated you can just home-school the future lunatic. And keep your little disease vector the fuck away from my kid. And me. Now that right there is a bona fide health concern.




let's think about your statement for a minute.

1) the large majority of children are vaccinated. therefore, if the diseases have no hosts to live in, the disease does not spread. Vaccinations have been around for what, 50+ years? In this country, most of the things being vaccinated against wouldn't be a problem anymore.

2) if you and your children have already been vaccinated, then why/what do you have to worry about if another child hasn't been?


and not everyone who chooses not to have their children vaccinated have some crazed religious stance about it, so get off your high horse




And that's the problem -- it may not be a problem if ONE person opts out, but when a significant portion of the population opt out you've set things up for a virulent outbreak.


I've never read a single actual study that linked vaccinations to autism. Wild speculation? Yeah, that I've seen.. plenty of that. Because mercury is, uh, BAD, right? And autism is higher in developed nations than the third world? And we get vaccinations with evil mercury here.. so.. that must be it! ZOMG
It doesn't add up. There's no actual proof. And, generally.. while your particular child might react badly to a vaccination, and that is a tragedy, vaccinations are a numbers game. You maybe make a few kids sick, in order to save many kids from getting much sicker.


Oh, and every new vaccine is NOT mandated. There's plenty out there that you don't need for public school or a passport or any of that crap.. but honestly I'd rather get a vaccine for something I might never come in contact with than risk catching something debilitating (but I will fess up that I never got a bird flu vaccine, because that bullshit was pretty obviously a steaming pile of fearmongering and media frenzy).


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7651435 - 11/18/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Chicken pox is quite dangerous for pregnant women and their fetuses. Women of childbearing age often have contact with schoolchildren.





that is so open ended and speculative. Ok, so every female from age 13-45+ all often have contact with schoolchildren. ok.

additionally, most people are exposed to chicken pox at a young age and don't have to worry about breaking out again. Saying that chicken pox is bad for a pregnant woman and the fetus is the same as saying an adult or much older adult who suddenly catches it could be fatal as well.

All I'm saying is that there is just as little proof that these vaccines are needed [in America] in today's society as there is that they aren't


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channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: demiu5]
    #7651672 - 11/18/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

uh, they are needed. measles, mumps, rubella.. they're still around. polio is still around, even. most things you're vaccinated against, are still around. you don't hear about them because they're rare -- BECAUSE of vaccinations. since they're still out in the wild, if a sufficiently-sized population of unvaccinated individuals were to encounter one of them?

mix, stir, add water, instant epidemic.

that's how it works.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #7651838 - 11/18/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

then what are these immunizations you have already taken doing for you?

do you keep forgetting that you have already been immunized? even if you were being exposed to these things on any given day, would you know?

though sometimes the immunization isn't strong enough to protect an individual, this is rare.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #7651958 - 11/18/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

since they're still out in the wild




What do you mean by this?  Where do you think that measles, polio, mumps & rubella are, exactly?  Biding their time in the woods, waiting for an unsuspecting, unvaccinated human to wander through?  :lol:

Bad, evil diseases!  And, of course, the parents of unvaccinated children should be arrested and charged with being accessories to infection!  Aiding and abetting a felonious germ!  Lock them up and throw away the key!

:rofl:  Humans are such funny creatures.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7653306 - 11/19/07 01:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

measles, polio, mumps and rubella may not be an issue if we were to shut our borders down completely -- nobody in, nobody out.

that's completely unrealistic.

The WHO estimates 2005, worldwide, there were 345,000 measles DEATHS
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Mumps, well.. take a look at the status of mumps outbreaks yourself
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps#Current_outbreaks

Rubella? Huh.. looks like Canada had an outbreak recently.
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/emu/health_notices/ihn_050305.pdf


Now, POLIO is one that you'll probably never run in to.. but it's still endemic in, last I heard, 4 countries. Nigeria -- who cares, travel to and from america to nigeria is minimal, right? And Pakistan? Who goes there, ew?

Oh wait, the other two countries we probably should worry about, hmm.
India and Afghanistan.

Someone gets on a plane in India, has a layover at LAX, hits up a conference in Atlanta, and then continues on to NYC... boy howdy, we'd be solid FUCKED if that happened.

These diseases are all still very much out there "in the wild". It's a vague way to put it, but it's very vague where they come from sometimes. It's easy enough to point a finger at dirty foreigners, but sometimes outbreaks arise for what seems to be no reason whatsoever.

So.. yes, if we stopped vaccinations right now? Public health would go down the shitter. Not US, of course, but our children would be victims of outbreaks.. and even worse off would be THEIR children. Working parent A somehow gets sick, infects everybody at work, all their kids get sick, infect everyone at school, who in turn infect their parents who infect everyone they work with.. it very quickly could get out of hand.

This isn't like selling somebody in Ohio an elephant-repellant rock. It would be, if there were elephants running around, occasionally trampling people even if they had one of those rocks. We know the stuff is out there, we know how virulent it is, and we know how to prevent it from crippling us, disfiguring us, and killing infants.

The tradeoff is VERY rarely bad reactions to vaccinations, and a completely unsubstantiated claim that vaccinations cause autism. Which did I mention, is completely unsubstantiated? It is. Not substantiated, that is. No proof.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Silversoul]
    #7653370 - 11/19/07 02:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.

Don't most schools require vaccination records before they'll allow a child to register? I think this law is unnecessarily draconian by jailing parents.

All Maryland has to do is disqualify unvaccinated kids from registering for school. This lets wacko parents who are afraid of vaccines the option to home school without going to jail.

Problem solved. :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Diploid]
    #7653414 - 11/19/07 02:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Heh, draconian is right.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7653473 - 11/19/07 03:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

1: There's no law stating children must be vaccinated. By threatening parents with jail time the government is being criminal, in contempt of it's own laws. This is hardly surprising when you accept america is as fascist as one can get.

2: No religious reason is needed not to have your kids pumped with mercury. Much like a parent wouldn't let them play in a mercury mine, inhale mercury vapours from a broken thermometer, or have mercury injected into their growing bodies.

3: There are other preservatives besides mercury one can use. And a whole host of preservatives are more suitable for human consumption than something that is a known poison.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7654145 - 11/19/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Everything is a poison. It just depends on the dosage. Levels of mercury in thimerosol are safe. Thimerosol-free vaccines are available, they just cost more.



Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist blah blah blah bullshit. The black helicopters are coming for you, pal. We know who you are where you live and what deodorant you use and one more word out of you and we'll be right over. Wear clean underwear.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Diploid]
    #7654171 - 11/19/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.

Don't most schools require vaccination records before they'll allow a child to register? I think this law is unnecessarily draconian by jailing parents.

All Maryland has to do is disqualify unvaccinated kids from registering for school. This lets wacko parents who are afraid of vaccines the option to home school without going to jail.

Problem solved. :syringe:






right.


If you do not follow the rules and get your kid vaccinated then they cannot go to public school. PERIOD


End of story.

No court cases, no jail time!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7654193 - 11/19/07 10:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Is this mandatory chicken pox vaccine good for life?

Or does it postpone getting chicken pox until you're an adult?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Diploid]
    #7656485 - 11/19/07 07:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.

Don't most schools require vaccination records before they'll allow a child to register? I think this law is unnecessarily draconian by jailing parents.

All Maryland has to do is disqualify unvaccinated kids from registering for school. This lets wacko parents who are afraid of vaccines the option to home school without going to jail.

Problem solved. :syringe:




Public schools and registered daycare providers are required to obtain either vaccination records OR waivers prior to registering children.  If parents opt to sign the waiver, they receive an official letter telling them that they may have to remove their children from school if there is an outbreak of something the other kids are vaccinated against.

I think denying children a public education based upon our current thinking about vaccination is a bit extreme.  Some parents simply do not have the resources, personally and financially, to homeschool their children.  I was homeschooled, and I homeschooled my older son through 3rd grade.  It is a huge commitment, even for someone who has teaching experience. And not all parents who disagree with mainstream Western medical practices are wackos.  I was not vaccinated, and neither are my children.  I did not make my choice based on irrational fears, but upon the perspective that natural immunology & maintenance of excellent health is a superior choice to vaccinations.  You are jumping to conclusions. :nono:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7656501 - 11/19/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I did not make my choice based on irrational fears, but upon the perspective that natural immunology & maintenance of excellent health is a superior choice to vaccinations.  You are jumping to conclusions. :nono:




A choice made out of ignorance as it is clearly incorrect.  Find yourself a happy island to live on.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7656524 - 11/19/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not be so certain that you have all the facts, sir.  It wasn't that long ago that doctors were treating everything with antibiotics and recommending antibacterial soaps and gels for daily use.  Now evolution has created Supergerms, and  Western medicine has had to hastily backpedal.  What mainstream medicine forces down our throats today could be acknowledged as a poison tomorrow, and it is up to us to be critical thinkers & smart consumers of medical "miracles."

Trying to make Western medical practices a prerequisite to public education is ridiculous, and jailing parents for failure to comply is utterly absurd.

I'm not moving to a "happy island" just yet, but this happy hippie has watched all my vaccinated friends, classmates & coworkers become ill, often with the viruses their magic shots were supposed to prevent, while I and my sons remain healthy.  :razz:


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Posts: 29,258
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7656554 - 11/19/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:this happy hippie has watched all my vaccinated friends, classmates & coworkers become ill, often with the viruses their magic shots were supposed to prevent, while I and my sons remain healthy.  :razz:


I dont think thats a big enough sample to draw any conclusion from at all.  Also, you and your son are insulated by those around you who do get vaccines.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7656644 - 11/19/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not be so certain that you have all the facts, sir.  It wasn't that long ago that doctors were treating everything with antibiotics and recommending antibacterial soaps and gels for daily use. 




Antibiotics have been overused.  Because stupid parents demanded them.  Antibiotics are irrelevant to viruses or vaccines.  Every year new flu germs evolve and every year they make a new flu vaccine.  No problem. 
Quote:



Now evolution has created Supergerms, and  Western medicine has had to hastily backpedal. 




Backpedal?  You really have no idea what you're talking about.  Every year they move forward.  You may be a caveman but we are not.
Quote:



What mainstream medicine forces down our throats today could be acknowledged as a poison tomorrow, and it is up to us to be critical thinkers & smart consumers of medical "miracles."




There is nothing new or "miraculous" about vaccines.  They simply work as has been shown for decades.
Quote:



Trying to make Western medical practices a prerequisite to public education is ridiculous, and jailing parents for failure to comply is utterly absurd.




Not in the West, it isn't.  I suppose you have no problem with typhoid Mary wandering the streets, because really, is it her fault?  Western Ed, Western Med.  Homeschooling is a pain in the ass.  I would suggest totally safe vaccines and a public school education.  You can do whatever you want.
Quote:



I'm not moving to a "happy island" just yet, but this happy hippie has watched all my vaccinated friends, classmates & coworkers become ill, often with the viruses their magic shots were supposed to prevent, while I and my sons remain healthy.  :razz:




Bullshit.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: DieCommie]
    #7658217 - 11/20/07 09:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How are they "insulating" us if they are ill?  :confused:  As a child, I watched my vaccinated friends become ill with the "normal" childhood viruses--mumps, chicken pox, measles.  I was exposed over and over again to contagious diseases, and did not become ill.  Same with both of my sons, who have been in daycare and school with vaccinated kids who came down with the creeping crud. 

I am not saying that this is a representative sample, but rather that the both the supposedly dire consequences AND the ironclad protection of vaccinations may be exaggerated.  The immune system is quite amazing, and does not need this dubious assistance.  A healthy human has a strong immune system, and is resistant to viruses.  IMO, there has been far too much focus on shots and antibiotics, and far too little on maintaining excellent health in order to avoid vulnerability.

Putting laws in place which require parents to get their kids vaccinated is unconstitutional AND short-sighted.  If they government really wants to interfere in family matters, why not take steps to eradicate the Standard American Diet?  This is a far greater health risk than measles, mumps, chicken pox or rubella.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7658307 - 11/20/07 10:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Vaccines have reduced the rates of certain childhood diseases by 99%.

Most wouldn't call a 99% reduction "overexaggerated".


--------------------
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Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: badchad]
    #7658584 - 11/20/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Even if we assume that there are health benefits to vaccinations which outweigh the potential risks, why make it illegal to opt out? If your child is vaccinated, then they are not at risk from children who are not. If parents choose not to vaccinate, then they are assuming the risk of their child becoming ill, the same way that they would if they fed their child sugar, trans and saturated fats, etc...

Who, outside of the unvaccinated population, is at risk of harm here? Are we really going to say that it should be illegal to take health risks? What if you believe that it is a greater risk to be vaccinated, should you then be forced to make the choices advocated by mainstream medicine, against your will?


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7658713 - 11/20/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Public health occasionally trumps individual rights.  Too bad.




What a fantastic argument for universal health care :awesome:


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7658736 - 11/20/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

ZING!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7659038 - 11/20/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Public health occasionally trumps individual rights.  Too bad.




What a fantastic argument for universal health care :awesome:




I don't think so.  Gummint vaccines for communicable diseases?  Sure.  Everything else?  I don't think that's public.  See the word occasionally in there?  It wasn't employed by accident.  Maybe we should buy you an apartment or a house too.  Just like they had in the good ole USSR.  Damn, I miss those days.  Given that part of my argument related to enforced quarantine, you would perhaps like to extend that as well?  Whack off some AIDS tallywhackers, maybe?  The left are such fascist monsters.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7659160 - 11/20/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Public health occasionally trumps individual rights.  Too bad.




What a fantastic argument for universal health care :awesome:




I don't think so.  Gummint vaccines for communicable diseases?  Sure.  Everything else?  I don't think that's public.  See the word occasionally in there?  It wasn't employed by accident.  Maybe we should buy you an apartment or a house too.  Just like they had in the good ole USSR.  Damn, I miss those days.  Given that part of my argument related to enforced quarantine, you would perhaps like to extend that as well?  Whack off some AIDS tallywhackers, maybe?  The left are such fascist monsters.




Although I am a supporter of Gummint health care (not single payer), I made that post for humor. So you can go ahead and put your claws away, tiger.

I find it sad and humorous however, that you are labelling me fascist when you are the one who wants to send parents to jail for not consenting to letting the government decide what vaccinations their children should get. And again, your inability to discern between communism and extending availabilty of insurance to all citizens regardless of "pre-existing conditions" is humourous as always. Does the food stamp program that ensures people in the Ghetto are fed prevent you from buying Pate' Foie Gras? Nope.

Sorry the thread is derailed but Zapp apparently can't take a joke.


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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Offlinekotik
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7659228 - 11/20/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wow, this is pretty crazy.

I refused to take vaccinations in the military, I'll be damned if my kids (if I had any) would be tested on with these guesses they call vaccinations.

Quote:

Sorry the thread is derailed but Zapp apparently can't take a joke.




heh, im almost sorry I've got zappa on ignore... but judging by this response, it seems I'm not missing much from the usual.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (11/20/07 02:18 PM)


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: kotik]
    #7659696 - 11/20/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Gummint health care is a fascist plot.

In my very first post I offered options.  One of them was homeschooling.

Kotik:

So you're one of the wimps with me on ignore.  You aren't missing much because I rarely post in any of the deranged dipshit forums or OTD.  Anyway, where do you go to Witness?  Oh, I forgot, you won't see the question.  You won't see this either.:bluemoon:


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7663394 - 11/21/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Why don't they not allow them in school when the child actually has a disease? Stay away from public schools imo.

I've heard comments that they are making it a prerequisite to go to public schools. Then why would they go so far to sentence the parents to jail time?

I do not trust vaccines, I do not trust the pharmacutical industry.

Noone has the right to stick a needle in my kids arm without my permission. Whether there is methyl mercury or not, people should have the right to choose such things. The greater good is not at risk, and anyone who tells you it is is spouting fear mongering propoganda.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7663427 - 11/21/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> Why don't they not allow them in school when the child actually has a disease?

Because sickness has this thing called incubation period where you are contagious to others, but you do not yet show signs of illness... thus if you wait until a child actually shows signs of the disease, it is too late, and a good portion of the other students at the school will be infected as well.

I suppose I don't have a problem with parents not vaccinating their children as long as they are willing to pay for all the medical costs should an outbreak occur, including the lost wages of parents that have to stay home to care for their sick children.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Seuss]
    #7663488 - 11/21/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Because sickness has this thing called incubation period where you are contagious to others, but you do not yet show signs of illness... thus if you wait until a child actually shows signs of the disease, it is too late, and a good portion of the other students at the school will be infected as well.




I see. So then would you intend for children to be vaccinated from all diseases? After all, every unvaccinated child in your opinion is a health risk. Here's a list for you:

Quote:

Viral infectious diseases

AIDS – AIDS Related Complex – Chickenpox (Varicella) – Common cold – Cytomegalovirus Infection – Colorado tick fever – Dengue fever – Ebola hemorrhagic fever – Hand, foot and mouth disease – Hepatitis – Herpes simplex – Herpes zoster – HPV – Influenza (Flu) – Lassa fever – Measles – Marburg hemorrhagic fever – Infectious mononucleosis – Mumps – Poliomyelitis – Progressive multifocal leukencephalopathy – Rabies – Rubella – SARS – Smallpox (Variola) – Viral encephalitis – Viral gastroenteritis – Viral meningitis – Viral pneumonia – West Nile disease – Yellow fever

[edit] Bacterial infectious diseases

Anthrax – Bacterial Meningitis – Botulism – Brucellosis – Campylobacteriosis – Cat Scratch Disease – Cholera – Diphtheria – Epidemic Typhus – Gonorrhea – Impetigo– Legionellosis – Leprosy (Hansen's Disease) – Leptospirosis – Listeriosis – Lyme disease – Melioidosis – MRSA infection – Nocardiosis – Pertussis (Whooping Cough) – Plague – Pneumococcal pneumonia – Psittacosis – Q fever – Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (RMSF) – Salmonellosis – Scarlet Fever – Shigellosis – Syphilis – Tetanus – Trachoma – Tuberculosis – Tularemia – Typhoid Fever – Typhus– Urinary Tract Infections

[edit] Parasitic infectious diseases

African trypanosomiasis – Amebiasis – Ascariasis – Babesiosis – Chagas Disease – Clonorchiasis – Cryptosporidiosis – Cysticercosis – Diphyllobothriasis – Dracunculiasis – Echinococcosis – Enterobiasis – Fascioliasis – Fasciolopsiasis – Filariasis – Free-living amebic infection – Giardiasis – Gnathostomiasis – Hymenolepiasis – Isosporiasis – Kala-azar – Leishmaniasis – Malaria – Metagonimiasis – Myiasis – Onchocerciasis – Pediculosis – Pinworm Infection – Scabies – Schistosomiasis – Taeniasis – Toxocariasis – Toxoplasmosis – Trichinellosis – Trichinosis – Trichuriasis – Trichomoniasis – Trypanosomiasis

[edit] Fungal infectious diseases

Aspergillosis – Blastomycosis – Candidiasis – Coccidioidomycosis – Cryptococcosis – Histoplasmosis – Tinea pedis


[edit] Prion infectious diseases

transmissible spongiform encephalopathy – Bovine spongiform encephalopathy – Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease – Kuru–Fatal Familial Insomnia–Alpers Syndrome –





No, the problem should be solved by promoting healthy eating and lifestyle. Healthy bodies are more resistant to diseases than an unhealthy body with a vaccine.

Vaccination is a disaster waiting to happen. It reminds me of the potato famine. What will people do when they cannot any longer afford the vaccines because of the extreme measures taken to scientifically study and find a vaccine that supposedly works and is safe or when a vaccine is no longer a feasable solution and the people's bodies have come to depend on them?


Edited by jonathan_206 (11/21/07 03:25 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Seuss]
    #7663659 - 11/21/07 04:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Why don't they not allow them in school when the child actually has a disease?

Because sickness has this thing called incubation period where you are contagious to others, but you do not yet show signs of illness... thus if you wait until a child actually shows signs of the disease, it is too late, and a good portion of the other students at the school will be infected as well.

I suppose I don't have a problem with parents not vaccinating their children as long as they are willing to pay for all the medical costs should an outbreak occur, including the lost wages of parents that have to stay home to care for their sick children.




But the children whose parents have vaccinated them won't get sick, right? So the only impact will be on the "bad" parents.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7663676 - 11/21/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> But the children whose parents have vaccinated them won't get sick, right? So the only impact will be on the "bad" parents.

True, but I suspect the "bad" parents are the ones that are most vocal for socialized medicine (though I could be wrong; bad of me to stereotype). As I said, as long as the parents of the sick kids are willing to bear the cost, instead of me, then I don't care what they do.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Seuss]
    #7663759 - 11/21/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Most "hippie" parents are not in favor of Western medicine at all, so socialized medicine would not benefit them.  The best insurance is to stay healthy! 

Again, if we're going to talk about taxpayers bearing the brunt of other people's risky health practices, we have to look at the enormous cost of the Standard American Diet and lifestyle.  Private health insurance rates in the U.S. reflect the outrageous increase in medical costs experienced by overweight, sedentary Americans.  Those of us who might want health insurance to protect them in case of an accident, but who live a healthy lifestyle, must bear the brunt of the aging, ailing Baby Boomers. 

Shall we make eating at fast food restaurants punishable by 10 days in jail?  How about a sedentary lifestyle?  Run around the block NOW or it's jail for you, buddy!  :lol:


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7663798 - 11/21/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


I suppose I don't have a problem with parents not vaccinating their children as long as they are willing to pay for all the medical costs should an outbreak occur, including the lost wages of parents that have to stay home to care for their sick children.




Care to address that part of the post? You seemed to have missed it, Jonathan.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Redstorm]
    #7663853 - 11/21/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think we are forgetting that its the virus' fault here


when will the virus have to answer for its actions?


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: sleepy]
    #7663953 - 11/21/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

when i can significantly alter genetic code with my brain waves


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: sleepy]
    #7663998 - 11/21/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sleepy said:
i think we are forgetting that its the virus' fault here


when will the virus have to answer for its actions?





15 seconds after it opens a bank account anywhere in the world there will be so many lawyers all over it that it will....say......wait a minute......yes, I have it.....we'll use lawyers to suffocate all viruses. The perfect multipurpose vaccine. Send my prize to 606-0842 Nobel Drive, America Fuck Yeah, OU812


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Redstorm]
    #7664765 - 11/21/07 08:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

suess:

I suppose I don't have a problem with parents not vaccinating their children as long as they are willing to pay for all the medical costs should an outbreak occur, including the lost wages of parents that have to stay home to care for their sick children.




redstorm:

Care to address that part of the post? You seemed to have missed it, Jonathan.




I suppose that will do fine for any serious infectious disease, but that doesn't seem reasonable for simple colds and flus. If you go to some place with other people you should prepare to get dirty, although parents should have the sick child stay at home. That's the real reason so many flus and colds get around in schools and work. Because they're sick and they know they're sick but they go anyway.

Also, if you vaccinate your kid that does not garauntee your child won't get sick so you would also have to be prepared to pay other kids parents also.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7665225 - 11/21/07 11:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Can anybody explain why the non-thiomersal vaccines are a problem for the anti vaccine crowd?

What is the argument against these?

In my mind, as long as the health regulations are reasonable (i.e. they don't skip vaccinations for more common illnesses but require them for less common without reason (i.e. increased severety)) they are fine. If the parents don't like it, home school or private school

I think jail is excessive though. We are to quick to criminalize everything. Just send the kid home. If the kid keeps coming back, fine the parents for the cost of transport. Problem solved. Why deal with jail unless you want to be an asshole get-tough-on-hippy politician?


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: johnm214]
    #7665646 - 11/22/07 03:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the jail time would probably be not for refusal to vaccinate but for a truant child.
it's not exactly OK to just up and not have SOME sort of schooling for your kid. I'm going out on a limb here but I doubt these parents are willing to homeschool.


The danger of an unvaccinated population is that vaccinations aren't 100% complete immunity forever from the disease. They knock your immune system up to the point we don't have outbreaks, but if enough unvaccinated people are around that a disease spreads.. vaccinated people may get caught up in it. Which wouldn't happen if those unvaccinated people had been vaccinated, since the disease wouldn't have been able to establish a foothold.


FYI, john, your list of diseases?

If we had vaccinations for half of those you bet your ass I'd get them.

A practically imperceptible risk through vaccination compared to, say, HIV? Or how about Lyme, since I'm in the woods often?

FUCK yeah. Sign me up. Give me a Herpes vaccine while you're at it.

The odds of your health being harmed by vaccination are much, much, much less than the odds of your health being harmed by living in an unvaccinated population.

And to make some sort of claim that since everyone ELSE is vaccinated, you don't need to be, is flat-out unquestionably selfish. We all know the risks -- and they're not near as bad as they're made out to be by fearmongers as evident by all the hubbula around the mercury in vaccinations being based on... nothing -- but we all know the risk of vaccination is FAR FAR FAR less than the risk of NOT vaccinating.

There are two choices -- vaccinate everybody or vaccinate nobody. "Vaccinate everybody except me"?

Honestly. Read that again. "Vaccinate everybody except me".


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OfflineKestrelj
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #10826076 - 08/09/09 02:20 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
uh, they are needed.  measles, mumps, rubella..  they're still around.  polio is still around, even.  most things you're vaccinated against, are still around.  you don't hear about them because they're rare -- BECAUSE of vaccinations.  since they're still out in the wild, if a sufficiently-sized population of unvaccinated individuals were to encounter one of them?

mix, stir, add water, instant epidemic.

that's how it works.




I would NEVER disagree that some vaccines are necessary, but I believe that it is foolhardy to force 3, and 4, and 5, and 6, or 7 or8 vaccines on the immune system at one time.  The insult is just too great.

Now, if they want to give the immune system time to deal with them 1 or 2 vaccines at a time I have very much less problem with that, than I do pumping ANYBODY, man, woman, or child, full of toxic vaccines that can cause them to actually catch the disease that they are being vaccinated for, and that happens when you give so many vaccines at the same time that you over-load the immune system.

It isn't rare, and it's NOT a fluke.  It's stupid planning on the part of the government.

So, yeah, let's have the reasonable vaccines, and space them far enough apart that they don't impact the immune system.


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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #10826958 - 08/09/09 10:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I like the lack of thinking in this thread.


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