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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7653306 - 11/19/07 01:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

measles, polio, mumps and rubella may not be an issue if we were to shut our borders down completely -- nobody in, nobody out.

that's completely unrealistic.

The WHO estimates 2005, worldwide, there were 345,000 measles DEATHS
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Mumps, well.. take a look at the status of mumps outbreaks yourself
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps#Current_outbreaks

Rubella? Huh.. looks like Canada had an outbreak recently.
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/emu/health_notices/ihn_050305.pdf


Now, POLIO is one that you'll probably never run in to.. but it's still endemic in, last I heard, 4 countries. Nigeria -- who cares, travel to and from america to nigeria is minimal, right? And Pakistan? Who goes there, ew?

Oh wait, the other two countries we probably should worry about, hmm.
India and Afghanistan.

Someone gets on a plane in India, has a layover at LAX, hits up a conference in Atlanta, and then continues on to NYC... boy howdy, we'd be solid FUCKED if that happened.

These diseases are all still very much out there "in the wild". It's a vague way to put it, but it's very vague where they come from sometimes. It's easy enough to point a finger at dirty foreigners, but sometimes outbreaks arise for what seems to be no reason whatsoever.

So.. yes, if we stopped vaccinations right now? Public health would go down the shitter. Not US, of course, but our children would be victims of outbreaks.. and even worse off would be THEIR children. Working parent A somehow gets sick, infects everybody at work, all their kids get sick, infect everyone at school, who in turn infect their parents who infect everyone they work with.. it very quickly could get out of hand.

This isn't like selling somebody in Ohio an elephant-repellant rock. It would be, if there were elephants running around, occasionally trampling people even if they had one of those rocks. We know the stuff is out there, we know how virulent it is, and we know how to prevent it from crippling us, disfiguring us, and killing infants.

The tradeoff is VERY rarely bad reactions to vaccinations, and a completely unsubstantiated claim that vaccinations cause autism. Which did I mention, is completely unsubstantiated? It is. Not substantiated, that is. No proof.


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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Silversoul]
    #7653370 - 11/19/07 02:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.

Don't most schools require vaccination records before they'll allow a child to register? I think this law is unnecessarily draconian by jailing parents.

All Maryland has to do is disqualify unvaccinated kids from registering for school. This lets wacko parents who are afraid of vaccines the option to home school without going to jail.

Problem solved. :syringe:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Diploid]
    #7653414 - 11/19/07 02:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Heh, draconian is right.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7653473 - 11/19/07 03:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

1: There's no law stating children must be vaccinated. By threatening parents with jail time the government is being criminal, in contempt of it's own laws. This is hardly surprising when you accept america is as fascist as one can get.

2: No religious reason is needed not to have your kids pumped with mercury. Much like a parent wouldn't let them play in a mercury mine, inhale mercury vapours from a broken thermometer, or have mercury injected into their growing bodies.

3: There are other preservatives besides mercury one can use. And a whole host of preservatives are more suitable for human consumption than something that is a known poison.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7654145 - 11/19/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Everything is a poison. It just depends on the dosage. Levels of mercury in thimerosol are safe. Thimerosol-free vaccines are available, they just cost more.



Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist Fascist blah blah blah bullshit. The black helicopters are coming for you, pal. We know who you are where you live and what deodorant you use and one more word out of you and we'll be right over. Wear clean underwear.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Diploid]
    #7654171 - 11/19/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.

Don't most schools require vaccination records before they'll allow a child to register? I think this law is unnecessarily draconian by jailing parents.

All Maryland has to do is disqualify unvaccinated kids from registering for school. This lets wacko parents who are afraid of vaccines the option to home school without going to jail.

Problem solved. :syringe:






right.


If you do not follow the rules and get your kid vaccinated then they cannot go to public school. PERIOD


End of story.

No court cases, no jail time!


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7654193 - 11/19/07 10:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Is this mandatory chicken pox vaccine good for life?

Or does it postpone getting chicken pox until you're an adult?


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Diploid]
    #7656485 - 11/19/07 07:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
On the other hand, if I have the disease, and I spread it to you, that's coercion as well. It seems coercion can't be avoided here.

Don't most schools require vaccination records before they'll allow a child to register? I think this law is unnecessarily draconian by jailing parents.

All Maryland has to do is disqualify unvaccinated kids from registering for school. This lets wacko parents who are afraid of vaccines the option to home school without going to jail.

Problem solved. :syringe:




Public schools and registered daycare providers are required to obtain either vaccination records OR waivers prior to registering children.  If parents opt to sign the waiver, they receive an official letter telling them that they may have to remove their children from school if there is an outbreak of something the other kids are vaccinated against.

I think denying children a public education based upon our current thinking about vaccination is a bit extreme.  Some parents simply do not have the resources, personally and financially, to homeschool their children.  I was homeschooled, and I homeschooled my older son through 3rd grade.  It is a huge commitment, even for someone who has teaching experience. And not all parents who disagree with mainstream Western medical practices are wackos.  I was not vaccinated, and neither are my children.  I did not make my choice based on irrational fears, but upon the perspective that natural immunology & maintenance of excellent health is a superior choice to vaccinations.  You are jumping to conclusions. :nono:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7656501 - 11/19/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I did not make my choice based on irrational fears, but upon the perspective that natural immunology & maintenance of excellent health is a superior choice to vaccinations.  You are jumping to conclusions. :nono:




A choice made out of ignorance as it is clearly incorrect.  Find yourself a happy island to live on.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7656524 - 11/19/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not be so certain that you have all the facts, sir.  It wasn't that long ago that doctors were treating everything with antibiotics and recommending antibacterial soaps and gels for daily use.  Now evolution has created Supergerms, and  Western medicine has had to hastily backpedal.  What mainstream medicine forces down our throats today could be acknowledged as a poison tomorrow, and it is up to us to be critical thinkers & smart consumers of medical "miracles."

Trying to make Western medical practices a prerequisite to public education is ridiculous, and jailing parents for failure to comply is utterly absurd.

I'm not moving to a "happy island" just yet, but this happy hippie has watched all my vaccinated friends, classmates & coworkers become ill, often with the viruses their magic shots were supposed to prevent, while I and my sons remain healthy.  :razz:


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7656554 - 11/19/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:this happy hippie has watched all my vaccinated friends, classmates & coworkers become ill, often with the viruses their magic shots were supposed to prevent, while I and my sons remain healthy.  :razz:


I dont think thats a big enough sample to draw any conclusion from at all.  Also, you and your son are insulated by those around you who do get vaccines.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7656644 - 11/19/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not be so certain that you have all the facts, sir.  It wasn't that long ago that doctors were treating everything with antibiotics and recommending antibacterial soaps and gels for daily use. 




Antibiotics have been overused.  Because stupid parents demanded them.  Antibiotics are irrelevant to viruses or vaccines.  Every year new flu germs evolve and every year they make a new flu vaccine.  No problem. 
Quote:



Now evolution has created Supergerms, and  Western medicine has had to hastily backpedal. 




Backpedal?  You really have no idea what you're talking about.  Every year they move forward.  You may be a caveman but we are not.
Quote:



What mainstream medicine forces down our throats today could be acknowledged as a poison tomorrow, and it is up to us to be critical thinkers & smart consumers of medical "miracles."




There is nothing new or "miraculous" about vaccines.  They simply work as has been shown for decades.
Quote:



Trying to make Western medical practices a prerequisite to public education is ridiculous, and jailing parents for failure to comply is utterly absurd.




Not in the West, it isn't.  I suppose you have no problem with typhoid Mary wandering the streets, because really, is it her fault?  Western Ed, Western Med.  Homeschooling is a pain in the ass.  I would suggest totally safe vaccines and a public school education.  You can do whatever you want.
Quote:



I'm not moving to a "happy island" just yet, but this happy hippie has watched all my vaccinated friends, classmates & coworkers become ill, often with the viruses their magic shots were supposed to prevent, while I and my sons remain healthy.  :razz:




Bullshit.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: DieCommie]
    #7658217 - 11/20/07 09:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How are they "insulating" us if they are ill?  :confused:  As a child, I watched my vaccinated friends become ill with the "normal" childhood viruses--mumps, chicken pox, measles.  I was exposed over and over again to contagious diseases, and did not become ill.  Same with both of my sons, who have been in daycare and school with vaccinated kids who came down with the creeping crud. 

I am not saying that this is a representative sample, but rather that the both the supposedly dire consequences AND the ironclad protection of vaccinations may be exaggerated.  The immune system is quite amazing, and does not need this dubious assistance.  A healthy human has a strong immune system, and is resistant to viruses.  IMO, there has been far too much focus on shots and antibiotics, and far too little on maintaining excellent health in order to avoid vulnerability.

Putting laws in place which require parents to get their kids vaccinated is unconstitutional AND short-sighted.  If they government really wants to interfere in family matters, why not take steps to eradicate the Standard American Diet?  This is a far greater health risk than measles, mumps, chicken pox or rubella.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: Veritas]
    #7658307 - 11/20/07 10:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Vaccines have reduced the rates of certain childhood diseases by 99%.

Most wouldn't call a 99% reduction "overexaggerated".


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: badchad]
    #7658584 - 11/20/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Even if we assume that there are health benefits to vaccinations which outweigh the potential risks, why make it illegal to opt out? If your child is vaccinated, then they are not at risk from children who are not. If parents choose not to vaccinate, then they are assuming the risk of their child becoming ill, the same way that they would if they fed their child sugar, trans and saturated fats, etc...

Who, outside of the unvaccinated population, is at risk of harm here? Are we really going to say that it should be illegal to take health risks? What if you believe that it is a greater risk to be vaccinated, should you then be forced to make the choices advocated by mainstream medicine, against your will?


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7658713 - 11/20/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Public health occasionally trumps individual rights.  Too bad.




What a fantastic argument for universal health care :awesome:


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7658736 - 11/20/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

ZING!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7659038 - 11/20/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Public health occasionally trumps individual rights.  Too bad.




What a fantastic argument for universal health care :awesome:




I don't think so.  Gummint vaccines for communicable diseases?  Sure.  Everything else?  I don't think that's public.  See the word occasionally in there?  It wasn't employed by accident.  Maybe we should buy you an apartment or a house too.  Just like they had in the good ole USSR.  Damn, I miss those days.  Given that part of my argument related to enforced quarantine, you would perhaps like to extend that as well?  Whack off some AIDS tallywhackers, maybe?  The left are such fascist monsters.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7659160 - 11/20/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Public health occasionally trumps individual rights.  Too bad.




What a fantastic argument for universal health care :awesome:




I don't think so.  Gummint vaccines for communicable diseases?  Sure.  Everything else?  I don't think that's public.  See the word occasionally in there?  It wasn't employed by accident.  Maybe we should buy you an apartment or a house too.  Just like they had in the good ole USSR.  Damn, I miss those days.  Given that part of my argument related to enforced quarantine, you would perhaps like to extend that as well?  Whack off some AIDS tallywhackers, maybe?  The left are such fascist monsters.




Although I am a supporter of Gummint health care (not single payer), I made that post for humor. So you can go ahead and put your claws away, tiger.

I find it sad and humorous however, that you are labelling me fascist when you are the one who wants to send parents to jail for not consenting to letting the government decide what vaccinations their children should get. And again, your inability to discern between communism and extending availabilty of insurance to all citizens regardless of "pre-existing conditions" is humourous as always. Does the food stamp program that ensures people in the Ghetto are fed prevent you from buying Pate' Foie Gras? Nope.

Sorry the thread is derailed but Zapp apparently can't take a joke.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Forced Vaccinations or 10 Days In Jail [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7659228 - 11/20/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wow, this is pretty crazy.

I refused to take vaccinations in the military, I'll be damned if my kids (if I had any) would be tested on with these guesses they call vaccinations.

Quote:

Sorry the thread is derailed but Zapp apparently can't take a joke.




heh, im almost sorry I've got zappa on ignore... but judging by this response, it seems I'm not missing much from the usual.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (11/20/07 02:18 PM)


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