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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
if I was baptized....
    #764930 - 07/21/02 05:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I just had a conversation with a friend who is Catholic and follows the religion well. I consider myself a non-religious person, but I was baptized as a Catholic. Now what he was saying, is that since I was baptized, I am still Catholic even though I don't follow the religion or believe in God.

My point is that I didn't have a choice when I was baptized and I don't accept Christianity, but somehow I'm still bound to the religion because I had "holy" water poured over my head when I was a baby. So now I'm going to hell, or purgatory if I'm lucky. What do you think about this?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #764992 - 07/21/02 05:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Find new friends.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #765149 - 07/21/02 06:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I would try to find a way not to go to hell. I hear it's pretty bad.


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #765192 - 07/21/02 06:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

LOL, thats retarded.
My dad wanted to baptize me when I was born but my non-religious mom wouldn't let him.
(thanks mom)

I have no problem with the idea of religion, but initiating a CHILD into it without letting them choose for themselves is dogmatic.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Edited by Adamist (07/21/02 08:17 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #765376 - 07/21/02 07:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Heh... I agree with Sclorch


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OfflineCalvin13
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Registered: 07/05/02
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: ]
    #765489 - 07/21/02 07:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i was baptized when i was a kid too and im not religious anymore

if you dont beleive in what the church teaches then to you baptizm shold be nothing more then a little water splashed on you. and if the religion is actually right youd go to hell if you are baptized or not since you dont beleive in any of it.


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OfflineSheepish
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #766319 - 07/22/02 03:33 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Tell him he's going to Hell for judging you. You're not a Catholic if you don't follow the religion. Simple as that. I was baptised as a Christian, but I don't follow that.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #766324 - 07/22/02 03:41 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Don't worry, you don't have to be a slave to the religion just becuase you were babtized into it. You don't beleive in it, you don't believe in the water being holy, so in actuality, your not catholic. But becuase your freind is a catholic, and he/she beleives the water is holy, in his/her mind you are still a catholic.
Remedy: Tell him/her that becuase you are no longer a catholic, the rules of the catholic church don't apply to you... If you feel the need, you may join a different religion, a less dogmatic religion, cleanse yourself by whatever rituals in that religion and then leave it. Your freind won't be able to argue, I beleive (unless he's the stubborn religious type)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #766360 - 07/22/02 04:30 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

My parents did not baptize me (being that they are not christian), however my grandparents on both sides are catholics, so they have probably baptized me themselves in their bathtubs.

It doesn't mean a thing if you don't want it to.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #766377 - 07/22/02 04:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I went even furthur than just baptized......I followed the cath-o-lick faith far enough that I was "confirmed".......I think that's the 4th of the sacrements after Baptism and holy communion and confession, and I'm in no way even vaguely religious anymore


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (07/23/02 06:59 AM)


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OfflineCalimero
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Registered: 11/18/01
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #767107 - 07/22/02 11:22 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I have been baptized, but then again I wouldn't really call my parents catholic, meaning that they rarely go to church. I don't really talk too much about religion with my parents, but my dad once told he just wants to be a good man. (I feel the same way) In order to achieve this, you will probably live up to certain catholic 'rules' (but also to others off course) without even realizing it.

But I'm only 19, so I've got plenty of time left to think about the great mystery that is life. I hope one day, I'll know what we're here for. And I'll let the magic mushroom be one of my guides...


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #767690 - 07/22/02 02:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry man, you're stuck with it for life, it's just like circumcision.
Oh, the things our parents put us through when we cannot protest...

I was baptized in the United Church, I don't know what exactly that is, as it doesn't seem too popular. It's pretty much Christianity, or maybe Catholicism, but the United folks don't believe in Hell, or any of the bad stuff for that matter. Yup, it's all gold, as far as I know; the United Church goers are ever optimistic.

Seems like some wack shit to me, but I haven't followed it since I was a little boy and lost interest when nobody could explain to me why we believed in Heaven and God, but Satan and Hell were just metaphors.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #768584 - 07/22/02 08:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I was born to a 'Jewish' woman, so Orthodox Jews insist that I will always be Jewish. My Mother, rest her soul, was an atheist to her dying day, and I was not circumcised on the 8th day (b'ris) as I was supposed to be. Moreover, I was baptised at the age of 23 in a Roman Catholic Church, but then attended a United Methodist seminary.

Essentially, I am a Christian by faith. Some Jews would strongly disagree, although I would be considered to be an 'apostate,' one who has renounced or abandoned my religion. Since I was never Confirmed, few priests would consider me to be a Catholic, but would be forced to take my baptism seriously - if the priest who baptised me had entered it into the Church record - which, I discovered some 7 years later he didn't. OK, so by the opinions of others, based on their long-held theological positions, I am neither Jew, nor Catholic.

I do not believe in infant baptism either, but in the conscious choice of an adult. The Amish were persecuted unto death for this same belief, as were other Protestant sects. Those acts which are deemed Sacraments by the Catholics, are held to be symbolic by the Protestants. The Holy Water Baptismal Font does not, constitute the' magical ' impartation of grace. Grace is not imparted magically, and the human will need ask for it. Infants are neither saved, nor are they damned. They belong to the natural order. As St. Paul has explicated it, there is a "natural man" and a "spiritual man" and the ontological difference can only be Known (Gnosis) through faculties that are received and developed by a willing adult, who intends to Know God. Baptism for an adult is an Initiation into the Mysteries of the Christian faith. From a philosophical Christian point of view, infant baptism relies upon the hope and intentions of others, and as mediated by a Sacrament. Since Protestant Christianity protested against this and other tenets, and decided upon 'a Priesthood of believers,' here is a stand that you can take along with the earliest Christians, before the Catholic Church became THE Authority for the Holy Roman Empire and the world. I am not anti-Catholic, but I have realized quite a bit of Protestant freedom. At the same time, I have valued the mystical nature of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which theologically describes some very psychedelic states (e.g., Uncreated Energy of God experienced in one's spirit [pneuma]).

To what extent belief creates one's link to Ultimate Reality is the BIG question. Does Catholic Heaven and Hell mean the same thing as Buddhist or Hindu Heaven and Hell, for example? Does reincarnation effect certain people with certain beliefs, or everyone? Are all the major religions like 5 blind men describing different aspects of the same elephant, without realizing they're all talking about the same thing? At some point - even if it takes til midlife - you will have to confront the BIG questions of life. This means that God will be at the center of the inquiry even if you choose a different Name for God, and a different description of Ultimate Reality. Atheist doesn't neccesarily mean 'no belief' - Buddhists are 'a-theistic,' they do not describe Ultimate Reality using personal attributes. If you penetrate far enough into theistic religions, you will eventually confront 'God beyond attribute,' but you have not taken a step in that direction yet.

I'll proffer this single and critical suggestion, and that is: Let Compassion guide you in all things. Compassion IS Wisdom, and is the Way to Wisdom. For a good sense of the Way of Compassion, it would do you well to acquaint yourself with the portrait of Jesus that is painted by the New Testament. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: Adamist]
    #769557 - 07/23/02 06:20 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

but initiating a CHILD into it without letting them choose for themselves is dogmatic.

Adamist is spot on here imho. If the decision to be baptized in a particular faith is NOT a conscious one (ie. your parents do it for you when you're a newborn) then it does not count. And all you have to do to prove this to your Catholic friend is point him to the practices of the early Christian church, where adults only were baptized. No where in the Bible is mentioned the baptism of children ... baptism is supposed to be an outward, public display of a persons dedication to God, not the dedication itself. It is a ritual performed AFTER THE FACT of submitting oneself to God.

peace


the Landotter


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* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal


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Offlinenezshoo
<--- SOMA

Registered: 05/25/02
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Loc: California
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: the_Landotter]
    #769575 - 07/23/02 06:34 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

If you aren't a religous person then wouldn't you not believe in hell? So why worry about going to hell!


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: nezshoo]
    #770899 - 07/23/02 04:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

oh no that's on the contrary, I don't believe in hell, it's just that my friend said I wouldn't go to heaven, but I don't believe in heaven either! It's just in his eyes I will go to hell or purgatory but I don't worry myself over it. I think Hell was made up to instill fear into people and therefore make them follow the church, and Heaven is a way of having an excuse that there is something better from this world when you die.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #772169 - 07/24/02 04:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Heavens, Hells, Intermediate States (Bardo, Purgatory, etc.), Enlightenment, Illumination, Liberation are not "made up." Reality isn't the limited sensory fairytale that you're living in. What is funny is that you "believe" it's the other way around. It's just that you haven't had a 'taste' yet. I hope God encourages you with a glimpse of 'Bliss,' and doesn't discourage you with an equally Real 'Nightmare.' Eternity is Ultimate Reality, 'life is but a dream.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #773500 - 07/24/02 03:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Very well said.

They have to wonder why we argue experience so often. Faith isn't blind.


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Invisibleemex
amigo

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 90
Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #773510 - 07/24/02 03:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

if you dont believe in it being baptized wouldnt mean anything in the first place therefore being baptized would be no different than going for a swim...both have no significant value to you. who cares if someone else might think it makes you catholic...whatever they believe they believe and leave it as that. other peoples beliefs shouldnt affect yours.


--------------------
I had not expected fear, but terror came with her
and tho I sought a dying moment, she showed me a dying eternity
and tho I sought to bring wisdom into the real, she tore the real from me
and I was no more, and in unbeing, I lost my fear


Edited by emex (07/24/02 03:16 PM)


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: if I was baptized.... [Re: chodamunky]
    #773514 - 07/24/02 03:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

My point is that I didn't have a choice when I was baptized and I don't accept Christianity, but somehow I'm still bound to the religion because I had "holy" water poured over my head when I was a baby. So now I'm going to hell, or purgatory if I'm lucky. What do you think about this?

Oh yeah what if my religion said you are going to Hell because your name is chodamunky? Who cares what somebody else's religion says about you? I'm going to hell a thousand times over according to 2 billion christians. I bet Heaven's Gate members think I'm going to miss the spaceship. Put it this way: if you think you are going to hell, you aren't a non-religious person.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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