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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom
#7645746 - 11/16/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7098902.stm
A UN panel has agreed a landmark report on climate change, and says the world must act hastily to prevent the worst predicted effects coming to pass.
After arduous talks in Valencia, Spain, scientists agreed a document they hope will shape debate on the next phase of the fight against climate change.
It declared the fact of global warming "unequivocal", and said it may bring "abrupt and irreversible" impacts.
The text will be officially launched by UN chief Ban Ki-moon on Saturday.
Delegates to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) summarised thousands of pages of scientific analysis, bringing together elements of the three reports already released this year, on the science of climate change, impacts and adaptation, and options for mitigating the problem.
"This is the strongest report yet by the IPCC - but says that there is still time to act," Bill Hare, an Australian climate scientist and one of the authors, told Reuters.
Among the report's top-line conclusions are that climate change is "unequivocal", that humankind's emissions of greenhouse gases are more than 90% likely to be the main cause, and that impacts can be reduced at reasonable cost.
The synthesis summary finalised late on Friday strengthens the language of those earlier reports with a warning that climate change may bring "abrupt and irreversible" impacts.
Such impacts could include the fast melting of glaciers and species extinctions.
"Climate change is here, it's impacting our lives and our economies, and we need to do something about it," commented Hans Verolme, director of the climate change programme with the environmental group WWF.
"After this report, there are no politicians left who can argue they don't know what climate change is or they don't know what to do about it."
Local witnesses
At a news conference, WWF presented testimonies from "climate change witnesses" in various parts of the world.
Speaking by video link, Australian scientists and fishermen spoke of the changes they were seeing on the Great Barrier Reef. And Olav Mathis Eira, a Sami reindeer herder from Norway, said that his communities are seeing weather patterns unprecedented in their oral history.
"Winter is one-and-a-half months later than it used to be," he said. "We observed birds and insects that do not have a name in Sami."
The 20-page synthesis summary by the Nobel Prize-winning IPCC will be accompanied by a longer, more detailed document.
The findings will feed into the next round of negotiations on the UN climate convention and Kyoto Protocol, which open in Bali on 3 December.
"The report sends a very strong signal to Bali," said Mr Verolme of the WWF. "Now it's up to the politicians."
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7645782 - 11/16/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
VisionsToReality said: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7098902.stm
A UN panel has agreed a landmark report on climate change, and says the world must act hastily to prevent the worst predicted effects coming to pass.
After arduous talks in Valencia, Spain, scientists agreed a document they hope will shape debate on the next phase of the fight against climate change.
It declared the fact of global warming "unequivocal", and said it may bring "abrupt and irreversible" impacts.
The text will be officially launched by UN chief Ban Ki-moon on Saturday.
Delegates to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) summarised thousands of pages of scientific analysis, bringing together elements of the three reports already released this year, on the science of climate change, impacts and adaptation, and options for mitigating the problem.
"This is the strongest report yet by the IPCC - but says that there is still time to act," Bill Hare, an Australian climate scientist and one of the authors, told Reuters.
Among the report's top-line conclusions are that climate change is "unequivocal", that humankind's emissions of greenhouse gases are more than 90% likely to be the main cause, and that impacts can be reduced at reasonable cost.
The synthesis summary finalised late on Friday strengthens the language of those earlier reports with a warning that climate change may bring "abrupt and irreversible" impacts.
Such impacts could include the fast melting of glaciers and species extinctions.
"Climate change is here, it's impacting our lives and our economies, and we need to do something about it," commented Hans Verolme, director of the climate change programme with the environmental group WWF.
"After this report, there are no politicians left who can argue they don't know what climate change is or they don't know what to do about it."
Local witnesses
At a news conference, WWF presented testimonies from "climate change witnesses" in various parts of the world.
Speaking by video link, Australian scientists and fishermen spoke of the changes they were seeing on the Great Barrier Reef. And Olav Mathis Eira, a Sami reindeer herder from Norway, said that his communities are seeing weather patterns unprecedented in their oral history.
"Winter is one-and-a-half months later than it used to be," he said. "We observed birds and insects that do not have a name in Sami."
The 20-page synthesis summary by the Nobel Prize-winning IPCC will be accompanied by a longer, more detailed document.
The findings will feed into the next round of negotiations on the UN climate convention and Kyoto Protocol, which open in Bali on 3 December.
"The report sends a very strong signal to Bali," said Mr Verolme of the WWF. "Now it's up to the politicians."
The UN is full of shit and supporting the profit business of global warming. (example: carbon credits) The next cycle is close at hand: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4 http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=571597 The scientists in at least 2 countries have looked beyond the near term and at the wide picture over centuries.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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disturbed
Poutine andSodomy



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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: hummermania00]
#7645819 - 11/16/07 08:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Jesus christ first that PETA Bullshit about cage free eggs and now this? Hummer is right this is a complete crock their is NO PROOF of global warming. Get off the Al Gore band wagon and try thinking for yourself!
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11/25/07 first time entrant ban lottery champion
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: disturbed]
#7645917 - 11/16/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The empirical data on global warming is mounting up such that the deniers will never win. Mark my words. Over the years, evidence against deniers has been growing and is verified more and more.
The UN's IPCC is the world's most credible group on climate change, period. Here is why: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7082088.stm
We KNOW what the chemical properties of CO2 are. We know what it can do once in the atmosphere.
For anybody to think that disturbing the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere by dumping millions and millions of metric tonnes of CO2 in the air every year is not a problem, is ridiculous. The theoretical and empirical data puts deniers to shaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. It's all gravy though, because the entire civilized world's majority believes man is causing global warming. Our society supports it, and more importantly, SCIENCE supports it. I love science. Don't you?
Some people say "there's no proof!" Well: NOTHING in the world of science is EVER proven. EVER. That's one of the golden rules of science. We can never prove the sun will rise tomorrow. We can NEVER prove gravity exists. And that is the 100% truth. Science is ALL theory.
Edited by VisionsToReality (11/16/07 09:24 PM)
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: hummermania00]
#7645940 - 11/16/07 09:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4 http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=571597 The scientists in at least 2 countries have looked beyond the near term and at the wide picture over centuries.
I trust the IPCC over a random, most likely bias sampling of only a handful of countries.
You can find scientists anywhere that will say whatever you want. The only thing that matters, though, is - are they credible? I believe yours are not. Especially since they are talking about sunspots, seeing as how the majority of the world's credible scientists agree that sunspots are not to blame.
Do you really think it's just a coincidence that around the industrial age in the 1800s that CO2 started booming, being spewed into the air by humans, and that shortly following that boom, temps rose? And that over 800,000 years of stable climate has suddenly changed because of the sun, and not CO2? And that it's a coincidence that 800,000 years of data taken from ice cores reveal that temp and CO2 are closely connected? C'mon. not only does it make sense to the average layman, but the majority of our scientists confirm that man is to blame, at least in some part.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7645944 - 11/16/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thank the fictional baby jesus that we have ice cores that have naturally recorded temp and co2 levels over hundreds of thousands of years. Without that, we as a civilization may have been fooled by the greedy oilpigs who have funded false science to confuse the average layman who finds global warming to be a farse.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: disturbed]
#7645945 - 11/16/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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their is NO PROOF of global warming
There IS proof of global warming. I don't know any climate scientist who disputes this.
What is in dispute is the cause. This is why:
1. The Earth has been much warmer than it is now many times in the past.
2. The Earth's atmosphere has contained much higher concentrations of CO2 many times in the past.
So, while there's little doubt that the Earth is warming, there is a lot of doubt about the cause. It may well be that the Earth does this all by itself from time to time and we're just along for the ride, or minimally contributing.
Be critical of the media. They make money by riling people up, and this global warming hysteria is selling a lot of newspapers.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7645956 - 11/16/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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First off, there is no proof of anything. We cannot prove gravity. We cannot PROVE quantum physics. We can only hypothesize and forumulate theories that are backed up with empirical data.
Please - go ask any credible scientist if they can prove ANYTHING - and they will tell you what I am saying - the answer is no.
Anyways, the rest- these are basic things, diploid. The earth's floura, fauna, and climate have varied GREATLY.
The point to take home is that earth's floura and fauna, as well as climate, have all worked together to maintain a natural cycle that has lasted over 800,000 years.
There is nothing significant that science has found that leads us to believe that NATURE is to blame for breaking this 800,000 year cycle.
That is why climates of various times are justified. On the doubt you pose about the cause, well - it has been become more and more clear every single year that man is to blame, as the data is reeled in and compiled.
Seriously - I don't get the deniers. Every single year for the last 10 years, data has been supporting my beliefs - not yours - and is only getting stronger.
I just wonder - how long will it take for the deniers to wake up?
Edited by VisionsToReality (11/16/07 09:38 PM)
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makaveli8x8
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7645976 - 11/16/07 09:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think pollution in general is a huge problem for us. There are citys that jogging along bissy streets is bad for your health. The air is really poor and rises health problems that should be seen in reports. Im thinking overall if were not causing global warming we are still shooting ourselves in the foot with pollution.
Just to note I do think we are causing a rise in global tempatures, they had a show on tv about all the planets near us and went through them one by one as possible alternitives to earth. I remember on one of them the planet had very high tempatures and they said it was a result of the high co2 on that planet (if memory serves me right ).
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  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7645978 - 11/16/07 09:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah air pollution is scary. Just driving on a traffic-hit highway is akin to riding through a tunnel of smoggy air filled with toxins. It's no wonder everybody is getting cancer. Then you have china, making unregulated coal factories, sheesh. People have said you get lightheaded in some places over there from all the crap in the air. Not to mention they have found smog originating in asia to have accumulated in the arctic. Yuk.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7645993 - 11/16/07 09:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The point to take home is that earth's floura and fauna, as well as climate, have all worked together to maintain a natural cycle that has lasted over 800,000 years.
We may be in the beginning of another cycle that would be happening anyway even if humans didn't exist.
For anybody to think that disturbing the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere by dumping millions and millions of metric tonnes of CO2 in the air every year is not a problem, is ridiculous.
And the ocean contains 35,000 gigatons of CO2, which it cycles out to the atmosphere on a regular schedule. By comparison, humans produce only 25 gigatons per year. Humans would have to produce CO2 at the current rate for 1,440 years to match what is ALREADY in the ocean.
Even at our worst, we're dwarfed by the ocean's ability to sink and dump CO2. What's ridiculous is to be convinced our tiny contribution is causing the majority of the CO2 concentration change based on the currently-incomplete picture.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7646002 - 11/16/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually, if you look around at updated data, the ocean is actually reaching its saturation point of CO2
Also, CO2 in the ocean acidifies it, harming the balance of the oceanic ecosystem, killing coral, etc. Too much CO2 in the ocean is not a good thing, and the ocean is soon going to reach its tipping point in terms of soaking CO2, as the data has shown.
Dip - the thing is that there is no reason as to why the earth would suddenly change its course. Scientists have ruled out solar phenomena, they have ruled out natural phenomena, and the 1 thing that remains to tilt the balance of our world is humans. Scientists have looked at ALL of these things you are saying, and they have counted them out. The credible ones, that is.
Will everything the scientists say today be true in a few years? Of course not. That is the nature of science. We can only go so far with the technology we currently have.
It is sort of like somebody looking at something without your glasses. You cannot clearly and crisply see everything, but you can make out a blurry image of a raving lunatic coming at you full speed with a machete raised in the air, and know that it is not a good thing. And what happens when you can see him crisply and clearly? Well, by then it's too late, and the machete-wielding lunatic is 2 inches from your face.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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makaveli8x8
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7646005 - 11/16/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have another perspective althow it is a small one
I wonder if maybe car engines could be raising tempatures? I googled it said 600 million cars are in the world. if every car in your city parked on the roads and left their engines running I would think the air temp would raise a little.
this effect is probly going to be small, but i could see it maybe raising global temps by 1f? who knows..
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  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7646081 - 11/16/07 10:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Heh. Never thought about that. Interesting
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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makaveli8x8
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646082 - 11/16/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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yah i mean think about it, leave your oven on in your house and it will take the chill off
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  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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disturbed
Poutine andSodomy



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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7646119 - 11/16/07 10:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: their is NO PROOF of global warming
There IS proof of global warming. I don't know any climate scientist who disputes this.
What is in dispute is the cause. This is why:
1. The Earth has been much warmer than it is now many times in the past.
2. The Earth's atmosphere has contained much higher concentrations of CO2 many times in the past.
So, while there's little doubt that the Earth is warming, there is a lot of doubt about the cause. It may well be that the Earth does this all by itself from time to time and we're just along for the ride, or minimally contributing.
Be critical of the media. They make money by riling people up, and this global warming hysteria is selling a lot of newspapers.
Ok I guess in should been a little more clear there is no proof humans have anything to do with the climate change. I was a little quick with the reply because I get sop frustrated with sheep that follow every little bullshit thing they are told.
Visions since your so all about science how have you forgotten about the fundamental rule that correlation does not equal causation?
I'm with diploid here all the way.
We already had one ice age and somehow the earth warmed up without exhaust from the internal combustion engine what's your explanation for that?
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: hummermania00]
#7646124 - 11/16/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hummermania00 said:
The UN is full of shit
This is usually true; not just in this case.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Ziggen]
#7646135 - 11/16/07 10:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well it's a good thing the UN isn't heading up actual research.
It's an international group of scientists from (if I'm not mistaken) 140 different countries
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646138 - 11/16/07 10:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually, if you look around at updated data, the ocean is actually reaching its saturation point of CO2
Exactly. You make my point for me.
The oceans are reaching saturation, meaning they may be at the top of the CO2 sinking curve and are now becoming a CO2 SOURCE instead of a sink. The point is, we're still not sure. The sample size is too small to be meaningful.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7646144 - 11/16/07 10:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wonder if maybe car engines could be raising tempatures?
Cars contribute virtually no heat at all when compared to the sun. This is like wondering if pissing at the beach might raise sea level.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7646150 - 11/16/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Actually, if you look around at updated data, the ocean is actually reaching its saturation point of CO2
Exactly. You make my point for me.
The oceans are reaching saturation, meaning they may be at the top of the CO2 sinking curve and are now becoming a CO2 SOURCE instead of a sink. The point is, we're still not sure. The sample size is too small to be meaningful.
The oceans are saturated because of CO2 caused by US. The oceans were doing just fine on their own until CO2 spiked starting in the industrial age. Oceans are NOT the source of upped CO2 in the atmosphere. That's just crazytalk.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Kamin



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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646163 - 11/16/07 10:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Then tell the UN ambassadors to ride to the UN on bicycles.
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California
A E S T H E T I C S A T A N


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646240 - 11/16/07 11:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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groundbreaking(not), the Sun is getting bigger. so no, it's not up to the politicians, unless they are approving a Sun shield or Sun shrinking device.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646393 - 11/17/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The oceans contain 1,400 times our yearly CO2 output. We couldn't be the cause of them saturating if we tried.
The capacity of the ocean to hold CO2 is a function of temperature. When the ocean warms, it releases CO2. If this upward jog in temperature is a normal variation of our climate, then it would trigger a massive release of CO2 from the oceans with or without us.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7646834 - 11/17/07 06:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: The oceans contain 1,400 times our yearly CO2 output. We couldn't be the cause of them saturating if we tried.
The capacity of the ocean to hold CO2 is a function of temperature. When the ocean warms, it releases CO2. If this upward jog in temperature is a normal variation of our climate, then it would trigger a massive release of CO2 from the oceans with or without us.
It would take massive temp increases for your hypothesis to be true, and we are not experiencing massive temp increases relative to CO2/ocean absorption. But we are experiencing massive temp increases relative to our global climate, which is a problem.
Temperature is not what is causing less CO2 absorption, and this has been concluded by the majority of the world's scientists. The reason why oceans are saturated is because we are adding too much CO2 for them to handle.
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/20/2065101.htm?section=world http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/21/content_6915657.htm http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/22/carbon_sinks_full/ http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008907686 (just some examples)
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Rustifer
prestige worldwide



Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 7,071
Loc: Central Texas
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646930 - 11/17/07 07:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Go plant a fucking tree.
While I buy a 12 cylinder German luxury automobile.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Rustifer]
#7646968 - 11/17/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oooo ya don't say, a 12 cyl? Dude, you're so special. Enjoy working on the weekends! <ignore>
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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AJ4U
Cloud N9ne



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Posts: 5,609
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7646972 - 11/17/07 08:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Rust's is right theres nothing we can do this is just earths natural cycle, global warming has been going on forever and we'll either adapt or we wont. Simple enough
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: AJ4U]
#7647004 - 11/17/07 08:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thankfully, it is not that simple, and we have the power to reverse the cycle.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7647070 - 11/17/07 09:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: their is NO PROOF of global warming
There IS proof of global warming. I don't know any climate scientist who disputes this.
What is in dispute is the cause. This is why:
1. The Earth has been much warmer than it is now many times in the past.
2. The Earth's atmosphere has contained much higher concentrations of CO2 many times in the past.
So, while there's little doubt that the Earth is warming, there is a lot of doubt about the cause. It may well be that the Earth does this all by itself from time to time and we're just along for the ride, or minimally contributing.
Be critical of the media. They make money by riling people up, and this global warming hysteria is selling a lot of newspapers.
I am critical of the mainstream media. But what I find interesting is that in a 2004 study of scientific literature on climate change, out of 928 articles from peer-reviewed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, 75% supported the anthropogenic hypothesis, 25% dealt with paleoclimate and took no position on the current trend, and NONE disagreed with it.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7647074 - 11/17/07 09:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: And the ocean contains 35,000 gigatons of CO2, which it cycles out to the atmosphere on a regular schedule. By comparison, humans produce only 25 gigatons per year. Humans would have to produce CO2 at the current rate for 1,440 years to match what is ALREADY in the ocean.
Even at our worst, we're dwarfed by the ocean's ability to sink and dump CO2. What's ridiculous is to be convinced our tiny contribution is causing the majority of the CO2 concentration change based on the currently-incomplete picture.
It seems to me that the ocean's CO2 just magnifies the problem, making the climate all the more volatile. As we release large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, it heats up the ocean, causing more CO2 to be released into the atmosphere. It's called the runaway greenhouse effect.
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MOTH
Wild Woman


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7647136 - 11/17/07 10:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I personally feel it's a natural cause. Humans are natural. No big deal. We're part of nature and nature is changing. It doesn't really matter "who done it," because we're all here, part of and contributing to a changing planet. Nothing to get upset over. It's evidently part of the process. It's pretty exciting.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Silversoul]
#7647716 - 11/17/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's called the runaway greenhouse effect.
Yes, this is yet another reason for the uncertainty about the cause of global warming. A smallish natural elevation of temperature might have occured in the near past for some as-yet unknown reason. That could have made the oceans start spilling CO2. That new CO2 caused another slight rise in temperature, which made the oceans spill yet more CO2.
Over and over the cycle feeds on itself and you get another in a regular cycle of warming and cooling that the Earth experiences on geologic time scales.
Of course, the same reasoning applies to human dumping of CO2. We just don't have enough information yet to point at any cause, natural or artificial, with certainty.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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trendal
Jâ™



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7647746 - 11/17/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This graph doesn't make any sense if you are arguing from a stance of "CO2 causes warming". It's not that hard to see...just look at when the CO2 goes up with respect to temperature.
The CO2 is actually lagging the temperature changes by a few hundred to few thousand years. If the CO2 goes up following the temperature, it can't very well be causing the rise in temperature, can it?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/Co2-temperature-plot.svg/800px-Co2-temperature-plot.svg.png
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7649509 - 11/17/07 11:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's called the runaway greenhouse effect.
Yes, this is yet another reason for the uncertainty about the cause of global warming. A smallish natural elevation of temperature might have occured in the near past for some as-yet unknown reason. That could have made the oceans start spilling CO2. That new CO2 caused another slight rise in temperature, which made the oceans spill yet more CO2.
Over and over the cycle feeds on itself and you get another in a regular cycle of warming and cooling that the Earth experiences on geologic time scales.
Of course, the same reasoning applies to human dumping of CO2. We just don't have enough information yet to point at any cause, natural or artificial, with certainty.
If anything, I think it demonstrates just how delicate the climate is, and that even if the human contribution isn't that significant right now(I believe it is), we'd better watch our emissions from now on.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7652153 - 11/18/07 07:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Watch The Great Global Warming Swindle with an open mind. If you have a short attention span, zip to about the 13 minute mark for the beef:
http://en.sevenload.com/videos/ha4PoKY/The-Great-Global-Warming-Swindle
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7652178 - 11/18/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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That movie was debunked as it was a propogandic film supported by oil interests. Look it up.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7652220 - 11/18/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's based on sound science. It's too bad when hysteria trumps legitimate science because the data is unpopular.
On March 17, 2007, The Daily Telegraph published a response by Durkin "The global-warmers were bound to attack, but why are they so feeble?"[48]. In it, he rejects any criticism of the close correlation between solar variation and temperature change, saying that Friis-Christensen stands by his work, and that "No one any longer seriously disputes the link between solar activity and temperature in earth's climate history." He accepts that the time axis of one graph was incorrectly labelled when the programme was first transmitted, but says that this does not change his conclusions. Regarding the Carl Wunsch controversy (see above) he repeats that Wunsch was not duped into taking part in the programme.
Durkin goes on to reject his opponents' position that the cooling period observed post Second World War was caused by sulphate aerosol cooling: "Thanks to China and the rest, SO2 levels are far, far higher now than they were back then. Why isn't it perishing cold?"
wikipedia.org
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7652337 - 11/18/07 07:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Regarding the Carl Wunsch controversy (see above) he repeats that Wunsch was not duped into taking part in the programme.
Regardless of whether he was "duped" into taking part in it, he certainly seems to feel they misrepresented his views. I tend to think he knows more about his own views than the film-makers.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7652401 - 11/18/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's based on sound science. It's too bad when hysteria trumps legitimate science because the data is unpopular.
On March 17, 2007, The Daily Telegraph published a response by Durkin "The global-warmers were bound to attack, but why are they so feeble?"[48]. In it, he rejects any criticism of the close correlation between solar variation and temperature change, saying that Friis-Christensen stands by his work, and that "No one any longer seriously disputes the link between solar activity and temperature in earth's climate history." He accepts that the time axis of one graph was incorrectly labelled when the programme was first transmitted, but says that this does not change his conclusions. Regarding the Carl Wunsch controversy (see above) he repeats that Wunsch was not duped into taking part in the programme.
Durkin goes on to reject his opponents' position that the cooling period observed post Second World War was caused by sulphate aerosol cooling: "Thanks to China and the rest, SO2 levels are far, far higher now than they were back then. Why isn't it perishing cold?"
wikipedia.org
You may go put on your tinfoil hat now.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Silversoul]
#7652518 - 11/18/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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BTW, if you watched Diploid's link, you might want to check this out:
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Edited by Silversoul (11/18/07 09:52 PM)
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: trendal]
#7652546 - 11/18/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: This graph doesn't make any sense if you are arguing from a stance of "CO2 causes warming". It's not that hard to see...just look at when the CO2 goes up with respect to temperature.
The CO2 is actually lagging the temperature changes by a few hundred to few thousand years. If the CO2 goes up following the temperature, it can't very well be causing the rise in temperature, can it?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/Co2-temperature-plot.svg/800px-Co2-temperature-plot.svg.png
The climate does not consist two variables - CO2 and temp It consists of all the organisms and dynamics of the planet COMBINED! Obviously there will be discrepancies, but anyone can see there is a clear relation, more clear than one would ever imagine actually.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Silversoul]
#7652848 - 11/18/07 09:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Both sides make compelling arguments. The jury is still out.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7652863 - 11/18/07 10:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"The jury" will probably be out for a long time to come, as it's not easy to discern with a great degree of certainty the man-made contribution to the trend, and any conclusions will always be contestable. I think the issue at hand is whether or not the probability of an anthropogenic cause to global warming is high enough to warrant cautionary measures by government and by business. I believe it is, and it seems that the majority of climate scientists agree with that assessment as well.
Fortunately, even for those that doubt the majority position, the case of peak oil and petro-politics is sufficient reason to support many of those measures anyway.
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Edited by Silversoul (11/18/07 10:12 PM)
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7652866 - 11/18/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Both sides make compelling arguments. The jury is still out.
This is what this entire thread boils down to: The majority of the world's most credible scientists are to be trusted for making decisions, especially policy decisions. NOBODY else should be trusted. Decisions have to be made presently. We should trust the majority of scientists, not the FEW that disagree. End of story. Period.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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trendal
Jâ™



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653561 - 11/19/07 05:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
VisionsToReality said: The climate does not consist two variables - CO2 and temp It consists of all the organisms and dynamics of the planet COMBINED! Obviously there will be discrepancies, but anyone can see there is a clear relation, more clear than one would ever imagine actually.
Yes that's right...just ignore the facts. Who needs something as silly as The Truth, when you have blind faith running the show!
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: trendal]
#7653569 - 11/19/07 05:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
Quote:
VisionsToReality said: The climate does not consist two variables - CO2 and temp It consists of all the organisms and dynamics of the planet COMBINED! Obviously there will be discrepancies, but anyone can see there is a clear relation, more clear than one would ever imagine actually.
Yes that's right...just ignore the facts. Who needs something as silly as The Truth, when you have blind faith running the show!
No layman has the ability to understand the complexities. You REALLY think YOU are well versed enough to do that? Please, get off the high horse. None of us can.
For you to say temp and co2 are going to be perfectly related like x vs y, with no other impacts from other variables, is RIDICULOUS!
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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trendal
Jâ™



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653573 - 11/19/07 05:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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No layman has the ability to understand the complexities. You REALLY think YOU are well versed enough to do that? Please, get off the high horse. None of us can.
I didn't say that...
For you to say temp and co2 are going to be perfectly related like x vs y, with no other impacts from other variables, is RIDICULOUS!
That would be a silly thing to say...if I said it.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
Jâ™



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: trendal]
#7653576 - 11/19/07 05:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I simply pointed out that the graph you were using did not show what you were saying it was showing.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: trendal]
#7653581 - 11/19/07 05:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes and you are saying it's not a x happens and y happens thing. It is not, because there are other variables.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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trendal
Jâ™



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653583 - 11/19/07 06:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Like what? 
Care to tell me what those other variables are?
Care to explain to me why the graph of co2 follows - and not precedes - the graph of the temperature?
And don't say "I can't know what they are"...because that is just so much bullshit.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653584 - 11/19/07 06:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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No layman has the ability to understand the complexities. You REALLY think YOU are well versed enough to do that? Please, get off the high horse. None of us can.
Wow. The pot calls the kettle black.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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trendal
Jâ™



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653586 - 11/19/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
VisionsToReality said: Yes and you are saying it's not a x happens and y happens thing. It is not, because there are other variables.
I wonder...why did you post that graph? If there are so many "other variables" involved, you certainly wouldn't be trying to claim that co2 precedes temperature...would you?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653596 - 11/19/07 06:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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For you to say temp and co2 are going to be perfectly related like x vs y, with no other impacts from other variables, is RIDICULOUS!
YOU are the one who's saying this by posting that chart. Look at it closely and see what Trendal is pointing out:
Start with the first big peak at 625 Kyears. The red is temperature and blue is CO2. Notice a sharp drop in temperature BEFORE the sharp drop in CO2.
Now look at the dropping trend at 500 Kyears. Again, the temperature drops FIRST, and then the CO2 drops.
Then again at 475 Kyears. The temperature rises BEFORE the CO2 rises.
This theme repeats all throughout that graph. The temperature change LEADS the CO2 change.
Do you even look at the evidence you use to (not) support your arguments? That chart undermines everything you've been harping on this whole thread. If you're going to argue, it would help your position if you posted charts that support your statements. The one you posted contradicts you.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7653631 - 11/19/07 06:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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What I am saying is there is a clear and distinct pattern but the multitude of variables in the environment is what causes the unsuspected lags in temp vs co2. Nothing is going to be perfectly related, this is a gigantic system we've yet to understand fully. But we can tell that there IS a clear patter, we KNOW the theoretical data of the affects of CO2, and we are observing these theoretical datum's empirical evidence which positively correlates with the suspected theoretical affects of CO2.
You guys REALLY think the two are going to be perfectly correlated if my side is right? No way. It will NOT be. Science is not clear cut, science generally strays from our common sense, etc
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653671 - 11/19/07 07:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nothing is going to be perfectly related, this is a gigantic system we've yet to understand fully.
Well, now you're making some sense. But a few minutes ago you were saying:
Quote:
End of story. Period.
It will be the end of the story when we DO understand the system. As you say yourself, there are still big gaps in our knowledge, so it's NOT the end of the story; the jury is still out.
But we can tell that there IS a clear patter, we KNOW the theoretical data of the affects of CO2
The theoretical expectation is that CO2 rise will happen BEFORE temperature rise. Your chart shows that the opposite happens. Temperature rises FIRST, and then CO2 rise follows.
So again, we don't have a clear enough understanding to explain that discrepancy, let alone say that we're at the "end of the story".
The jury is still out.
You guys REALLY think the two are going to be perfectly correlated
They are nearly-perfectly correlated, only problem is they correlate in the wrong order.
Why is that? Well, we don't know, so the jury is still out.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7653681 - 11/19/07 07:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wasn't saying end of story with regard to global warming. I was saying it in the context of relying on policy decisions from the majority of science.
And what I just repeated and will repeat again is that the env. doesn't consist of just temp and co2, it has other variables, which throws the graph out. Read that again, because I've repeated it for what seems to be the third time.
Why do they correlate in the "wrong order?" Because the climate has more than 2 variables. See?
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653698 - 11/19/07 07:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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that the env. doesn't consist of just temp and co2, it has other variables, which throws the graph out.
It throws ALL our science out of whack because we don't fully understand what's happening. Until we do, you can't say that global warming is definitely anthropogenic.
Why do they correlate in the "wrong order?" Because the climate has more than 2 variables. See?
What I see is that we don't yet know how many extra variables are involved or fully understand how they affect the climate. Drawing conclusions with such a big gap in our knowledge is way premature.
Should we be cautious? Should we takes steps to limit greenhouse gas emissions? Sure, not only because that makes sense even if warming wasn't happening, but because it's at worst erring on the side of caution.
But the hysterical calls for immediate draconian measures to cut CO2 emissions are out of proportion to our current understanding of the problem.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7653754 - 11/19/07 07:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You are missing the point. All current credible scientists agree that MOST LIKELY, GW is caused by humans. So that's what we have to go on now. Not layman like you that think they know better. So THAT is what we base our policy on - the majority of credible scientists that have reviewed the data.
Agree?
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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machination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653775 - 11/19/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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we are conditioning the climate, uncontrollably? to what end is fear used to promote change?
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653833 - 11/19/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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All current credible scientists agree that MOST LIKELY, GW is caused by humans.
Nope. A significant fraction of scientists do not agree. Unfortunately, most who disagree keep quiet because of the hysterical witch-hunts anthropogenic global warming advocates have launched against anyone who dissents:
Michael Griffin, NASA's administrator, made the mistake of expressing skepticism of the anthropogenic warming theory. Instead of rational debate, he nearly got his balls handed to him. He made a hasty recanting in order to keep his job.
In this hysterical climate, it's not surprising that a "majority" of scientists tow the line. Still, some have the courage to speak out rationally:
"NASA's top administrator, Michael Griffin, speaking on NPR radio made some refreshingly sensible comments about the present global warming scare," said Robert Ferguson, Director of the Science and Public Policy Institute. "Many rationalist scientists agree with him, clearly demonstrating there is no scientific consensus on man-made, catastrophic global warming," said Ferguson.
Said Dr. Walter Starck, an Australian marine scientist, "Griffin makes an important distinction between the scientific findings of climate change and dramatic predictions of catastrophic consequences accompanied by policy demands. The former can be evaluated by its evidence, but; the latter rest only on assertions and claims to authority. Alternate predictions of benefits from projected changes have been proposed with comparable authority and plausibility. For example, unless one chooses to define the Little Ice Age as "normal" and "optimal" the net effect of any warming has only been beneficial and any anthropogenic contribution very small indeed. Dramatic predictions of imminent disaster have a near perfect record of failure. Griffin's note of caution in the escalating concern over climate change deserves sober consideration.
Kansas geologist, Lee Gerhard added, "Griffin's statement focuses on the hubris that affects much of public policy. It is great to know that someone out there besides geologists understands that humans do not dominate earth's dynamic systems.
Many more dissenting scientists (not laypeople) speak out in the rest of that article here: ewire.com
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7653915 - 11/19/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: All current credible scientists agree that MOST LIKELY, GW is caused by humans.
Nope. A significant fraction of scientists do not agree. Unfortunately, most who disagree keep quiet because of the hysterical witch-hunts anthropogenic global warming advocates have launched against anyone who dissents:
Michael Griffin, NASA's administrator, made the mistake of expressing skepticism of the anthropogenic warming theory. Instead of rational debate, he nearly got his balls handed to him. He made a hasty recanting in order to keep his job.
In this hysterical climate, it's not surprising that a "majority" of scientists tow the line. Still, some have the courage to speak out rationally:
"NASA's top administrator, Michael Griffin, speaking on NPR radio made some refreshingly sensible comments about the present global warming scare," said Robert Ferguson, Director of the Science and Public Policy Institute. "Many rationalist scientists agree with him, clearly demonstrating there is no scientific consensus on man-made, catastrophic global warming," said Ferguson.
Said Dr. Walter Starck, an Australian marine scientist, "Griffin makes an important distinction between the scientific findings of climate change and dramatic predictions of catastrophic consequences accompanied by policy demands. The former can be evaluated by its evidence, but; the latter rest only on assertions and claims to authority. Alternate predictions of benefits from projected changes have been proposed with comparable authority and plausibility. For example, unless one chooses to define the Little Ice Age as "normal" and "optimal" the net effect of any warming has only been beneficial and any anthropogenic contribution very small indeed. Dramatic predictions of imminent disaster have a near perfect record of failure. Griffin's note of caution in the escalating concern over climate change deserves sober consideration.
Kansas geologist, Lee Gerhard added, "Griffin's statement focuses on the hubris that affects much of public policy. It is great to know that someone out there besides geologists understands that humans do not dominate earth's dynamic systems.
Many more dissenting scientists (not laypeople) speak out in the rest of that article here: ewire.com
You can believe your conspiracy theories.
The REALITY of this all is that you are in the minority, and the scientists who disagree are in the minority, and therefore ALL policy decisions MUST be made with regard to the MAJORITY.
That is how this will place out and that's how it should play out. There is no other viable alternative to follow.
You can believe whatever you want, but we will continue to trust the majority's view, because that is the most credible one we have. Not paid oil-shills that are in denial.
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7653928 - 11/19/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not paid oil-shills that are in denial.
Which dissenting scientist in that link works for the oil lobby?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7653953 - 11/19/07 09:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even if they aren't it doesn't matter. They are outnumbered, period. We listen to the credible majority, period. There's nothing you can do until the majority of scientists disagree with my belief. And that has not been happening. My side has only been strengthened. Do you deny that?
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Diploid]
#7654098 - 11/19/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are scientists today who still do not believe that AIDS is caused by HIV. You could probably make a compelling documentary called "The Great HIV Swindle" by interviewing these scientists. But I don't think this would be compelling enough to stop focusing on HIV cures.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 1,083
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: Silversoul]
#7654142 - 11/19/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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LOL!
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: UN declares global warming unequivocal, saying abrupt warming & irreversible changes loom [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7654592 - 11/19/07 12:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Visions to Reality said:
"It is sort of like somebody looking at something without your glasses. You cannot clearly and crisply see everything, but you can make out a blurry image of a raving lunatic coming at you full speed with a machete raised in the air, and know that it is not a good thing. And what happens when you can see him crisply and clearly? Well, by then it's too late, and the machete-wielding lunatic is 2 inches from your face."
Something about the imagery on that; and the following comment from you, remind me of the fundie christian mentality. In this case it is being applied to a scientific theory.
"Even if they aren't it doesn't matter. They are outnumbered, period. We listen to the credible majority, period. There's nothing you can do until the majority of scientists disagree with my belief. And that has not been happening. My side has only been strengthened".
Your belief does not in fact make it a universal truth.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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