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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Great stuff man. Your beliefs about psychedelics coincide with mine almost identically (especially what you wrote about atheism).
Having intense talks like that with family members takes alot of strength.
Your sister seems to preach 'objectiveness', yet does not practice it herself. Must be very tedious! Hopefully in due time she might get out of that hollow 'atheist' trap.
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: A letter I just wrote to my sister... [Re: Ginseng1]
#8403317 - 05/14/08 11:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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When I read your original letter to her I knew the kind of response you would get. Not because it was written badly, or portrayed an inaccurate message - but because she doesn't have the mindset to understand or appreciate it.
When i was in highschool, I was the straight edge kid. I wasn't Hardcore, with Xs on my hands or anything - i just chose to abstain from drugs and alcohol. Nobody could convince me otherwise, but I didn't judge others for their choices. Your original letter explained everything just as perfectly as a fan of psychiedelics could, but she doens't speak the language. She hasn't had her perception opened up - hasn't seen the world the way we do - doesn't understand what is to be truly in your own head. And until her mind's inner eye is opened, she will remain ignorant to your viewpoints.
The sad part is that she can't just accept that you have chose this path. It's obvious from your speech you are well aware of your actions, your choices, and your goals. Inherently, people who are truly knowledgable of their choices and the consequences of those choices have it in their self-interest to choose those that will make them happy. I can tell from the text you type online that you're happy with where you are, and the path you're traveling down. If she can't percieve that same message in direct conversation, and accept that you are where you want to be - then I don't think there is much more you can do.
Perhaps someday she will realize there is more to life than one person's subjective measurements of success. I wish you the best in your endeavor - but I have faith that you will finally get through to her somehow.
I want to say "Show her this thread" - but I don't think it would do too much good. I'm sure we're all just a forum full of "misdirected" people in her eyes.
I wish I could offer more (any) help.
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MOTH
Wild Woman


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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Your sense of peace about your life is what's important.
Sorry she doesn't understand that. Maybe she will one day.
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Epigallo
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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I am very impressed with your letter and course of action.
I guess the only thing I could suggest, although it is too late now, is to first mention the psychological benefits and therapeutic uses, clinical trials, etc. I would try to keep it scientific; the spiritual stuff is definitely a sensitive topic for most people. Sometimes the 'spiritual' language can be substituted by descriptors such as 'enthusiasm', 'introspection', 'layered mind-states', 'plasticity', and 'openness'. Then again, you don't want to modify your speech so much that it becomes dishonest.
How do you think it will it be different if she changes her mind?
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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy



Registered: 12/03/03
Posts: 1,262
Loc: Greener Pastures
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: A letter I just wrote to my sister... [Re: Epigallo]
#8413029 - 05/17/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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OMR, that was an extremely well written letter, as good as any could be regarding the subject matter. It just goes to show that no matter how compelling an argument you present, people will cling to their beliefs and assumptions like liferafts.
I relate to your positions to a striking degree, I feel I could have written that letter myself (thought it probably wouldn't have been as good). I grew up a devout atheist and also took mushrooms for the first time seeking more of an interesting high than a transcendental experience, which it ended up being. I 'came out of the psychedelic closet' with my family a few years later and it went very, very badly, beginning with an argument like your sister's coming from them, turning into extreme self-righteousness which was impossible to reason with and which eventually became extremely disrespectful to myself (at this point I stopped caring entirely what they thought, which only furthered their certainty that I had lost touch with reality) and climaxing with my parents, having cosigned on my apartment at the time, leading the cops through while I was out of town in an effort compile evidence of DMT manufacturing to 'scare me' into going to rehab, which failed and ended me up with
-felony manufacturing charges that were reduced because of lack of evidence to -felony possession charges that were reduced, being a first time offender and eligible for conditional discharge, to -a 1.5 year probation sentence which included mandatory rehab, community service, fines, etc which I am still in the midst of, plus a tremendous deal of anger, frustration, and depression which I am still sorting out.
Amazingly I actually have a functioning, if shallow, relationship with my family again, which ironically if it weren't for transforming psychedelic experiences of my life would never happen; my old self would have held onto that anger forever and it would have surely consumed me by now. This hardly the whole story either -- it is much more expansive. You just never know how people will react when they are afraid.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman



Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: A letter I just wrote to my sister... [Re: Grok]
#8415714 - 05/18/08 08:20 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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OMR, I know it's a little late, but I have to say that I think it's wonderfull that you can write such a heart felt letter to your sister and expect honest feedback. My sister's a great person, one of the kindest people I know, but I could never be this honest with her and expect a discussion back. Maybe I'm not giving her enough credit, but that's the impression that I get.
It seems to me that you have to chalk up the differences you two have. She seems concerned with success, while you are concerned with life. Neither of you are correct, you just need to remain on that common ground and maybe just ignore the rest, since you've already made your views perfectly clear.
Sorry if I misjudged you in any way.
Now I'm thinking of corresponding with my family in letter form, I can never seem to say things right the first time.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: A letter I just wrote to my sister... [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8415823 - 05/18/08 09:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think its a good thing your sister is so concerned with your well-being.
It seems to be the prevailing view that self-discovery, personal growth etc. are mutually exclusive with "success". Why can't you do both at the same time?
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Re: A letter I just wrote to my sister... [Re: badchad]
#8488101 - 06/05/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I won the Ban Lottery a couple of times and never responded to everyone's kind responses.
chad I do agree with you, on both counts...I mean it's good she's concerned fo me, and also I agree that success and happiness are not mutually exclusive.
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Greetings folks! For those of you who have chimed in here or followed my other thread dealing more with my relationship with my mother (found here) I want to first off express my deep thanks. Sometimes I think I am being overly naked "look at me" by posting these things, but I have received ratings and private messages that encourage me to continue sharing my personal and interpersonal travails with you; people have told me that my own openness with my family inspires them to be more honest with their own loved ones about who they are and what is most important to them, whether that is the psychedelic experience or something else completely.
The last time I posted in this thread it was 2008. My sister and I did not discuss this topic again until the fall of 2009 when I decided that I was going to focus on graduate school, and was researching both schools to apply to and a focus for my studies. I knew I wanted to study psychedelics, but in what context? Anthropology? Sociology? Psychopharmacology? Creative Writing? Religious Studies? I could take any tack.
My sister, whose letters are reprinted in this thread, is a PhD student at an Ivy League university. I wanted her advice. I traveled to see her and spend the weekend and with her and during the afternoon on Saturday, I laid it out on the table. The conversation went incredibly well, with her providing excellent advice not just for searching for a school or a teacher with whom to study but also helping me phrase my questions and my approach to psychedelics. She helped me formulate some very simple questions to answer to myself. I felt we'd really taken a step forward; in seeing that my interest in psychedelics was taking a turn for the academic, she seemed to offer me a bit more respect.
After this, my life took a very sharp turn. My boss and friend and mentor Margaret, whose cancer had been facing what seemed like certain defeat, took a turn for the worse at the end of September. By the first week in December, she was dead, and much more work was on my hands. I don't have time for graduate school right now; my job is my family and my home and the businesses for which I work are near and dear to my heart. Right now, I have to do a good job for Margaret.
But I also need to flex my individualistic muscle. I need to be who I am. So I have been looking for and striving for ways to contribute to the psychedelic community any way I can. I knew about the MAPS Conference coming up in April, and I bought a ticket and a flight.
If you have not read the other thread earlier linked, "Paths of the Heart/Coming out of the Psychedelic Closet," the events that followed that can be found in this post within that thread, where I detail a conversation where I "come out" to my mother as someone who uses psychedelic substances.
In the wake of that revelation, each of my two sisters had similar but different reactions. My oldest sister, who has been much more understanding of my lifestyle all throughout my life (I have long been, in many ways, the black sheep of the family), wished I had not told my mother but understood why I did it.
The sister with whom this thread largely deals, N, was extremely angry with me. We had a phone call a week after I told my mother, and what happened was not a conversation. I was put on the defensive about my entire life, and N spent about two hours picking apart every thing about the way I live my life. It was incredibly painful for me; I had never known she could have such a closed mind. Alas, I wrote her this email after a short cooling down period:
Quote:
I know you don't want to think about any of this at all. But I'm going to write this to you anyway, and you can read it at your leisure, whenever you want. I know you are very busy. We've "tabled" this discussion before at your request, and I always defer to you on that and let you take whatever time you need before talking about it, no matter how much doing that really upsets me, which isn't something I think you take into account at all. It makes me feel like the state of our relationship isn't as important to you as your studies and other pursuits, and like you don't really take me and my own interests seriously even though I have the deepest respect for how you spend your time, even if it's not what I would choose for myself. You want everything to be okay between us, but you don't give me any rope to work with. Perhaps I'm short-sighted, or delusional - really, tell me - but I feel that I try much harder than you do to reach a middle ground in our differing perspectives.
There's a real lack of mutuality between us in terms of respect and understanding, and I'm not being melodramatic at all when I say it breaks my heart. That conversation we had on the phone a few Sundays ago, well it wasn't a conversation at all, not from where I was standing. You spent so much time attacking my choices, my way of life, my beliefs, and I don't know how to react to that. Hence so much silence on my part towards the end. You said some incredibly hurtful things to me that I keep playing over again in my head and they never sting any less.
I always tell people about the strong women in my life who so inspire me, and you and Mommy and Miriam are the foremost among them, so this inability we have to have a dialogue as opposed to talking at each other, it really wounds me. And again, I feel I make a great effort when we do talk about this to invite dialogue, but you are incredibly closed-minded about seeing my side of things. I am perpetually perplexed by the fact that you, a brilliant PhD student at an Ivy League University, have not even the slightest inclination to challenge your preconceived notions about something - in this case drugs, drug use, drug abuse, and the possible benefits and dangers of the things in which I'm interested. You told me as much, and I quote it verbatim, "I don't think I'll ever be able to see things from your perspective." That sounds a lot like, "I'm never going to try."
You think I've been brainwashed, and I don't know if that insults or upsets me more. If you could simply accept that I have a passion that sprang organically and that I have pursued that passion as one of many I have in this life, I think that would be a huge step in helping us understand one another. I had an experience, and this felt, present, direct experience impacted my life positively, and I feel other people deserve the opportunity to explore their consciousness - a natural, innate human drive found in almost every single culture in human history - without fear of legal reprisal. And I feel very passionately that people's irrational fears of what they don't know should not be a roadblock to medicinal research and prescription of substances that could help people immeasurably. I believe billions of taxpayer dollars are being wasted on a war that calls itself the war on drugs but is a war on personal freedom and whose data clearly shows it unfairly targets minorities while whites have higher rates of drug use across the board. These are not things I pulled out of the air, or that someone said to me and that I am regurgitating, these are conclusions I have come to via three routes - personal experience, conversation with hundreds of other people, and extensive reading of scientific/academic research and a wide array of literature on the subject.
I have no interest in converting you to my viewpoint, at all. I don't need you to agree with me. We could spend our entire lives in disagreement on these issues and I would be sad about it but I would accept it. What I can't accept is your not even trying at all to understand where I'm coming from, and just looking for reasons that are more comfortable for you than just accepting that I am sincerely passionate about this - i.e., that I'm "fulfilling some psychological need to embrace something controversial."
I think you're holding out hope, always, that this "phase" will end. But, Nika, I'm not an adolescent boy going through a fad - I'm a man with passionate feelings about a subject that happens to be taboo to some people. This dialogue, as I see it, has to be an ongoing one, because it strikes right to the heart of our relationship as brother and sister. I love you unconditionally, and I know you love me the same, but as a friend of mine once said years ago, "Love is not enough." Love is all you need, but it's not enough to make the world go around. It's a three-pronged fork - peace, love, and understanding. We have the love, but we're not going to have peace until we try and understand one another. I am always trying to understand and accept what it is that scares and upsets you (and society at large) about psychedelics, and I hope you can one day understand and accept why it is that I feel so strongly as I do about them.
Love, [my real name]
She responded with this monolithic paragraph, which I have not broken up for you so that it can retain its original character. In the construction of this unbroken stream of thought, I see an impenetrability...
Quote:
Oy, I do not know where to begin with this. First of all, I never wanted to table this discussion because I don't have time for you or because our relationship isn't one of my top priorities (I think you know that you're one of the most important people in my life). I wanted to table this discussion because I find this topic an endless source of frustration and upsettedness. And I want to try to find a way to articulate why that is. I think you really do believe that you're being open-minded and that you want to hear my perspective and address my concerns, but that's almost the problem--you've already decided that I'm wrong and that my perspective is not valid. And I appreciate that you want to make me feel better about what you're doing--but, again, that's the problem: you want to assuage me, you don't want to listen to me. You do not hear what I am saying. Further, I think you probably want to say that to me: that I'm not hearing you, and I'm not listening to your perspective. But, Danny, I hear your perspective. I get what you're saying. I know that you really, whole-heartedly believe in the power of psychedelics to open your consciousness and make you aware of yourself and of others. But, to me, it is a false consciousness. (And I'm so sorry that I'm so blunt, but this is the way I write and speak because it's the only way I know to articulate my thoughts.) Bear with me for a minute here: I think all people in careers that they really love pursue them because it teaches them about themselves and the world. I know that is the case for both me and for Miriam. I love art, but I also love how studying the history of art helps me understand how the world works, how societies determine their values, and, well, how people think (what determines our interests, and how that finds expression in the weirdest possible ways). And this isn't something that I can just find in a book, it's why I work the hours that I do; it's because I have to research and think and write for weeks on end to even get at one little point--and it's not something I'll have worked out when I finish my dissertation, it's a process and an interest and a quest even that will drive my whole career. It's really, really hard, and it's a struggle. (Imagine the mental version of the most grueling physical exercise you can ever think of.) And that, to me, is how you get to know yourself and the world: through constant challenge and struggle and work. That is why I am skeptical of religion, of psychedlics, of anything that promises that you can tap into yourself as if yourself is something just there waiting to be found and that you can get at just by asking yourself certain questions within narrowly defined parameters. It should be something you construct your whole life, and I just adamantly believe that it can't be done in the abstract--which is what I think religion and psychedelics, for example, are premised upon. I do not believe that you can truly learn about yourself by removing yourself from reality, by putting yourself in a headspace that is elsewhere (which is what both religion and psychedelics do) even if those "practices" then ask you to apply what you've learned there to your daily life. If you want to learn about yourself and about the world, you can only do that as yourself in the world. This is the drive behind all great art: Michelangelo may paint God, van Gogh may paint flowers, and Christo may put up gates in Central Park, but they are all using art as a medium to figure something out about the world and humanity's place within it. And this is why I am so insistent about you tending to your writing. Because I don't know that you've learned yet how to harness it as a medium that will allow you to learn about yourself and the world. I think if you find your subject, your question, your inspiration, you'll see how writing can be more than a release, it can be, well, a medium--something that allows you to work out ideas and issues and concerns that you didn't even know that you had. And maybe you already feel this way about it; I'm just going on the past few conversations we've had in which it didn't sound to me like you did. I'm not pushing you towards writing because I think it could get you a "good job." I'm pushing you towards writing because I think it can give you a career that allows you to find yourself and understand the world, like art history does for me. Because, basically, I don't think you need psychedelics to do what you want to do; and, in fact, for the reasons I've stated above, I think they actually drive you further away from what you want--which, again, seems to be knowledge of yourself and happiness with the world. My overall issue with psychedelics (in addition to that you never know what people can put in shit, and that there are terrible consequences if you're ever caught) is that: that they actually withhold from you exactly what it is that they promise and, further, that by doing so (through this false fulfillment or knowledge) they distract you from actually exploring yourself, the world, and the other means that can get you to that. In fact, I think they dangerously teeter on making people self-centered and self-righteous in the process. Are there medicinal uses for it? Maybe. Does it suck and is it perhaps unwarranted how harsh drug laws are? Yeah, probably. But these are totally separate issues from whether it's the path to enlightenment, which (for the reasons stated above) I don't think it is. So, it's not that I don't recognize that governments have agendas and that policies can be skewed, and it's not that I don't see that one day they might find medicinal merit in certain chemicals or whatever in psychedelics. I just do not see psychedelics as the path to self/world-knowledge, and I would feel that way even if they were legal. The question isn't: are drugs bad, or are they good and misunderstood? Either way, they function in the same way--and that's what I disagree with. I'm sorry if any of this comes across as harsh; I really don't mean it that way--any vehemence in my voice when we speak or when I write is me trying to find a way, somehow, to get out words that even remotely express what I'm thinking. I love you more than you can possibly imagine--which is why I get so frustrated and so upset when it comes to this topic. I just want to help you find the way to get what you want: to be truly engaged in the world and happy with yourself within it.
Love, N
And now that I have shared that with you, I am off to draft my response...
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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You're lucky your family members are intelligent...
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Cloud9
I don't feel, and it feels great




Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 1,554
Loc: between here and there
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your threads just leave me in awe.. and i agree with the poster above, you are very lucky to have intelligent family members!
you keep trying to get your point across, but i dont see someone whos never done a psychedelic, understand the experience and what it means to us.
i greatly look forward to the tale as it unfolds, please keep us updated.
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