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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God
#7640281 - 11/15/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wanted to share you all an excerpt from the book "Simulations of God" by the well known psychonaut and scientist John C. Lily:
There have been episodes in which mystics have contacted a state of being which gives them a new appreciation and a new perception of reality and eternity. Some of these mystics have tended to project this "as if" a God Out There, others have not. The primary phenomena of the experience, which in the Christian tradition is called "the experience of divine grace" or "the experience of divine love" and in the Arabic tradition "the experience of divine Baraka," are taken as perceptions which validate the particular points of view, philosophies, and needs of those individuals with particular belief systems.
They assume that what they do gives rise to the phenomena. This is not necesarrily true. There may be, among some of the ways of thinking, feeling, and doing, clues to what it is they do that provokes these phenomena - from either within or without. At this point we are not taking sides on the source of these phenomena; we are merely noting that these phenomena are very real but that they are also overvalued in the sense that they then extend into proofs of belief systems.
Here we do not wish to throw the baby out with the bath water; we are not here putting down the phenomena of divine love, divine grace, divine baraka, or higher states of consciousness, and so forth. These phenomena, in my own experience and those of many of my acquaintances, are incredibly important to us. All we are calling to attention here is that if one forms the basic belief that these phenomena originate from a God Out There, from the results of one's use of rituals directed to a God Out There, and from a prayer to a God Out There, then one is not exploring all the possibilities; rather he is allowing possibilities to be only those dictated by some dogma from the past.
..... Just a reminder that your interpretations of an event are simply that; an interpretation
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7640395 - 11/15/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I wanted to share you all an excerpt from the book "Simulations of God" by the well known psychonaut and scientist John C. Lily:
There have been episodes in which mystics have contacted a state of being which gives them a new appreciation and a new perception of reality and eternity. Some of these mystics have tended to project this "as if" a God Out There, others have not. The primary phenomena of the experience, which in the Christian tradition is called "the experience of divine grace" or "the experience of divine love" and in the Arabic tradition "the experience of divine Baraka," are taken as perceptions which validate the particular points of view, philosophies, and needs of those individuals with particular belief systems.
They assume that what they do gives rise to the phenomena. This is not necesarrily true. There may be, among some of the ways of thinking, feeling, and doing, clues to what it is they do that provokes these phenomena - from either within or without. At this point we are not taking sides on the source of these phenomena; we are merely noting that these phenomena are very real but that they are also overvalued in the sense that they then extend into proofs of belief systems.
Here we do not wish to throw the baby out with the bath water; we are not here putting down the phenomena of divine love, divine grace, divine baraka, or higher states of consciousness, and so forth. These phenomena, in my own experience and those of many of my acquaintances, are incredibly important to us. All we are calling to attention here is that if one forms the basic belief that these phenomena originate from a God Out There, from the results of one's use of rituals directed to a God Out There, and from a prayer to a God Out There, then one is not exploring all the possibilities; rather he is allowing possibilities to be only those dictated by some dogma from the past.
..... Just a reminder that your interpretations of an event are simply that; an interpretation
This is very good. I have refrained from attaching dogma to these events that I have experienced in my life. IMO they are available to everyone no matter what your beliefs are.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Icelander]
#7640566 - 11/15/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I used to attribute some level of objective truth to my psychedelic experiences. Now I don't attribute objective truth to ANY of my experiences, sober or otherwise. I like to just be in the experience, and let others struggle with what's real and isn't.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Silversoul]
#7640584 - 11/15/07 04:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I used to attribute some level of objective truth to my psychedelic experiences. Now I don't attribute objective truth to ANY of my experiences, sober or otherwise. I like to just be in the experience, and let others struggle with what's real and isn't.
:D 
This is tough for me, I am working on quieting the part of me that HAS TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Lion]
#7640596 - 11/15/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Don't get me wrong. It's fun to speculate. But I try not to let my speculations turn into assertions.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Lion]
#7640683 - 11/15/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: I used to attribute some level of objective truth to my psychedelic experiences. Now I don't attribute objective truth to ANY of my experiences, sober or otherwise. I like to just be in the experience, and let others struggle with what's real and isn't.
:D 
This is tough for me, I am working on quieting the part of me that HAS TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON
IMO this is the death anxiety part of us and is very difficult to quiet. I'm still working on this one but feel I have made some small progress.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Icelander]
#7640710 - 11/15/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
bug said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: I used to attribute some level of objective truth to my psychedelic experiences. Now I don't attribute objective truth to ANY of my experiences, sober or otherwise. I like to just be in the experience, and let others struggle with what's real and isn't.
:D 
This is tough for me, I am working on quieting the part of me that HAS TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON
IMO this is the death anxiety part of us and is very difficult to quiet. I'm still working on this one but feel I have made some small progress.
Hmm, how do you feel you have made progress? Has it been the passage of time and life experience, or just total acceptance, or what?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Lion]
#7640724 - 11/15/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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All of that but the "total" acceptance part.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Lion]
#7640776 - 11/15/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am working on quieting the part of me that HAS TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON
Wow, this is such a foreign concept to me. I HAVE TO KNOW and would never want it to be otherwise.
Maybe I'm just behind the mean on the Enlightenment Curve. I don't think so, but anything's possible.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Diploid]
#7640863 - 11/15/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I didn't say I don't want to know. I just don't think I can know, necessarily. Maybe I can know what's going on in my head. Maybe we're talking about different kinds of knowing. Who knows?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Silversoul]
#7640977 - 11/15/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I used to attribute some level of objective truth to my psychedelic experiences. Now I don't attribute objective truth to ANY of my experiences, sober or otherwise. I like to just be in the experience, and let others struggle with what's real and isn't.
I recently "gave it a shot" to try this out for a few days. I never went back. It's like taking a load off of your back. This is just sitting in the mystery. Now if I could only color the mystery as peaceful and loving more so than I color it "wtf scary", then I'd be good. But not using reflective consciousness on these philosophical ideas has really helped me shift my sense of self from "mind" to "spirit", if ya dig. And I feel much better. The burden is gone. It pokes its head in every once in a while to check on me and see how I'm doing, but it knows it has worn out its welcome.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7641195 - 11/15/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"God out there" is meaningless because God, or Pure Awareness, is not substantial. It does not possess spacio-temporal coordinates. It is like saying a 'glass of mind.' God can be defined variously, but even stripped of attributes, it still makes no sense to use the human body as a frame of reference for 'out there' beyond one's skin and 'in here' within one's skin. Mind - our own mind - isn't encapsulated by our skin any more than it can be held in a drinking glass. At best, Ultimate Reality can be alluded to by metaphor, or perhaps brought to us by the conundrum of a koan, but there really is no such thing in this contect as out there or in here. This is why the Gospel of Thomas speaks to the Kingdom of Heaven as both:
"...the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you." - Logion 3
This is a non-dualist Reality you are referring to from a dualistic perspective.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7641794 - 11/15/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
All we are calling to attention here is that if one forms the basic belief that these phenomena originate from a God Out There, from the results of one's use of rituals directed to a God Out There, and from a prayer to a God Out There, then one is not exploring all the possibilities; rather he is allowing possibilities to be only those dictated by some dogma from the past.
There was a time that the past was present. Record of events is the only way to learn. It's not necessary to test every possibility to come to a correct answer, as is shown in science and throughout human society.
But again there is the reminder of the not so uncommon idea that believing something makes you close minded to inspection and investigation. When we naturally apply any concept btw,, we are (hopefully) inspecting it and weighing it against the evidence.
If you believe in science, you should agree with me. Because science was based upon the monotheistic belief that the natural laws hold true, that they are constant. Recording events that are past is the only way to make further progress in learning.
And it works
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Lion]
#7642088 - 11/15/07 09:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"What I would like to see is the "I" that knows me, when I know that I know that I know."
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Middleman]
#7642232 - 11/15/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I like this post a lot. I recently had a conversation with a friend that began as a discussion about how deeply ingrained cultural symbols and metaphors are within our psyches, and how when we have 'spiritual' or 'altered consciousness' experiences of profound impact, these symbols come into play and we subconsciously use them to interpret and understand the experience. He said that he was glad he had learned what he has about symbolic thought, because now if he ever sees Jesus, he'll know better than to become a raving bible thumper!
Symbols we carry deep within us can be powerful tools, as they are so inherent in our development and understanding of the ourselves and the world around us. This is why I have so much interest in Christian gnosticism, and in subverting christian symbols and stories.
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Lion
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Middleman]
#7643235 - 11/16/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: "What I would like to see is the "I" that knows me, when I know that I know that I know."
I was listening to the Ram Dass audio you sent me last night - to 'Remember: Be Here Now'.
He was saying that Westerners suffer from what he called 'the asymptotic curve toward the subtle sphere': the desire to know that we Know keeps us from Knowing. So you can get closer and closer to the truth, but because you want to know that you know it's the truth, you never touch it - never become it. I found that pretty profound.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Lion]
#7643267 - 11/16/07 08:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey glad to know you got it.
I've been working from home and listening to Ram Dass, Alan Watts, Adyashanti, Eckhart Tolle, even Esther Hicks, and reading E.J. Gold and R. A. Wilson and it's awesome how they are all saying the SAME THING in their own ways, I feel like I'm really starting to GET it, er, BE it, er UN-BE it....
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Diploid]
#7643450 - 11/16/07 09:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I am working on quieting the part of me that HAS TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON
Wow, this is such a foreign concept to me. I HAVE TO KNOW and would never want it to be otherwise.
Maybe I'm just behind the mean on the Enlightenment Curve. I don't think so, but anything's possible.
You misunderstand him. You want to know and he has to know. There is anxiety in the second and in the first is the joy of discovery.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ZShroom
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/07
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: Middleman]
#7643460 - 11/16/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Middleman, i am pretty sure i have heard it but just to be sure could you please send me the ram dass audio also? Greatly appriciated!
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fake estate
didgin it out



Registered: 10/13/07
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Re: Labeling an ego loss experience as contact with an outside God [Re: ZShroom]
#7644468 - 11/16/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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from my personal experiences I have felt like I connected with "god"...a more broad god that rules all without rules and the you just feel a total meshing with the workings of the universe..people can only verbalize it with the language available to them therefore interpretation is often difficult
-------------------- eat more algae.
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