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InvisibleRahz
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Spirituality -vs- self improvement
    #7639315 - 11/15/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I thought it might be cool to get different opinions on the difference between these two concepts.

Spirituality - an acceptance of what is Now. It will always be good enough.

Self Improvement - the idea that I'm not good enough, but that at some point in the future, I will be... but not without constaint struggle.

Self improvement is the ego's way of making sure the future never arrives. When I first found a spiritual path, I constaintly bounced between these two states. It still happens, and I think experiencing the contrast between them begins to make it clear that self improvement is bull shit.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7639374 - 11/15/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Traveling forward on a spiritual path inevitably improves upon who you were. IMO


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7639463 - 11/15/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I thought it might be cool to get different opinions on the difference between these two concepts.

Spirituality - an acceptance of what is Now. It will always be good enough.

Self Improvement - the idea that I'm not good enough, but that at some point in the future, I will be... but not without constaint struggle.

Self improvement is the ego's way of making sure the future never arrives. When I first found a spiritual path, I constaintly bounced between these two states. It still happens, and I think experiencing the contrast between them begins to make it clear that self improvement is bull shit.




Self improvement is what life is all about. We grow we learn and things improve. Roll on your back, crawl, walk, run. Same for the intellect and emotions IMO. It's a choice to see self-improvement in terms of not being good enough. But look at a baby learning to walk. It fails and falls again and again. Were it to judge it's falls as failure then it would become depressed and give up and never learn to walk. It doesn't do that however. I is unattached to results but instead is motivated by desire to do, or to attempt to do.

Most spirituality IMO is without basis in fact or merit. It's often used to tell oneself that we are not good enough as we are. So that can be all fucked up too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Icelander]
    #7639539 - 11/15/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, you're both right.

I guess the distinction is that some spiritual people withhold enjoyment as something that cannot be had without hard work and years of perseverance, when it's actually something that's available right now.

The actual improvements are an addition to being, not a substitute. This post isn't an attempt to slight the concept of improvement, just to take a look at it's dark side.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7639547 - 11/15/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Watch out for looking at the "dark" side of things. Redgreenvines might have to post in your thread.:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7640110 - 11/15/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Your definitions of those terms are a bit skewed.

Perhaps, next time... look them up, before telling us what they mean.

Semantics are a pain in the ass... yet they are very helpful when using TEXT as your primary means of communication.

Unless we can all agree on what a term means, we are not able to discuss it properly on a web forum. Not when people from all walks of life are free to post here...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineBoundless
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7640960 - 11/15/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

They both go perfectly well together.

With spirituality defining the end of the goal as the perfection of the self or becoming one with the spirit or God, and self improvement being a means to work to get that goal, we can see, that until we are perfect we must have both, the means to achieve the goal, and the end in mind.

So if self improvement can be called learning, which is in truth just a way of letting go of the ego, then we can see that although a being is in a perfected state already, they must learn to recognize this state in themselves AND others.

So IN time we learn how to be ourselves, and OUT of time, we KNOW ourselves, which is the key to being fully in the present.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7641822 - 11/15/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Your definitions of those terms are a bit skewed.

"I thought it might be cool to get different opinions on the difference between these two concepts."

Concepts. I defined my concepts. I correct myself/elaborate as needed, and kinda plan on modifying my concepts through this type of correspondance. Gotta start somewhere. :wink:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (11/15/07 08:59 PM)


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7641831 - 11/15/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

why not start at the end and go forward?


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Boundless]
    #7641880 - 11/15/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>They both go perfectly well together.

I agree completely with your post. What I'm talking about is the ego's version of improvement. It seems that as long as I have an ego, there will be that idea there (whether I heed it or not) that happiness can't occur until improvements are made.

I've disproven this to myself time after time, and yet ego still has the same opinion.

VH "You can analyze this situation to me it's all just mental
masturbation" "There's only one way to rock"


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7641895 - 11/15/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have to agree that your definitions are not right.

Quote:

Spirituality - an acceptance of what is Now. It will always be good enough.




That's a rather overly broad and innacurate statement. It is not necessarily an acceptance of what is now. It may not be good enough sometimes. You may have to go through not good times.

Spirituality, in simple terms, deal with spiritual matters that is things that pertain to spiritual creatures. You can come up with all sorts of things to call spiritual, but this has been the definition of spiritual.

Quote:


Self Improvement - the idea that I'm not good enough, but that at some point in the future, I will be... but not without constaint struggle.




It doesn't neccesarily have to be that way, although in this world it can be tough for anyone, some more than others def.

Quote:


Self improvement is the ego's way of making sure the future never arrives. When I first found a spiritual path, I constaintly bounced between these two states. It still happens, and I think experiencing the contrast between them begins to make it clear that self improvement is bull lalala.




Absolutely not. It's not the way to make sure the future never arrives. It's the only way to make sure the future arrive. You got it backwards.

I have to agree with with boundless they go with each other, although I have to disagree with the rest of the post.

Self improvement is not just a letting go of the "ego". It's not just about losing bad things like pride, it's also about gaining.

Quote:


So IN time we learn how to be ourselves, and OUT of time, we KNOW ourselves, which is the key to being fully in the present.




Are you implying that you can step outside of time?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642182 - 11/15/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>I have to agree that your definitions are not right.

They are concepts, so it is impossible for the definition to be wrong.

>>>>It may not be good enough sometimes. You may have to go through not good times.

I disagree with the first sentence, I agree with the second. The statement wasn't overly broad in my opinion. It's very simple, and broad, but not overly broad.

>>>>It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, although in this world it can be tough for anyone, some more than others def.

That's what I'm saying, it doesn't have to "be that way".

>>>>Absolutely not. It's not the way to make sure the future never arrives. It's the only way to make sure the future arrive. You got it backwards.

>>>>I have to agree with with boundless they go with each other, although I have to disagree with the rest of the post.

I don't have it backwards, the future is already here. It's not something to wait on. I also agree with boundless, perhaps more-so than you.

>>>>Self improvement is not just a letting go of the "ego".

That's not what I was defining as self improvement, though it's close to what I'm defining as spiritual. Self improvement is improving things, or forms. The egos idea is that it needs these things to improve, whereas spirit knows there is nothing to improve. It's all necessary, whether we like it or not. We get better at things we want to get better at, and hopefully move away from states and beliefs that hurt us. We deal with the hurt in the mean time, but trying to climb to absolute knowledge for salvation is just as bad as seeking comfort in absolute knowledge. If there is ever a time to feel complete and whole, it's right now. Perhaps this is the only thing we are truly trying to realize?

>>>>It's not just about losing bad things like pride, it's also about gaining.

Well, pride basically has two definitions, one good and one bad. I think we call arrogance "pride" because we're afraid of harming someone's feelings, or perhaps our own. It's also about gaining good things like pride.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642355 - 11/15/07 11:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Spirituality, in simple terms, deal with spiritual matters that is things that pertain to spiritual creatures.

Are you sure this is your definition of spirituality?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7642609 - 11/16/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

from dictionary.com

spir·i·tu·al·i·ty (spr-ch-l-t)
n. pl. spir·i·tu·al·i·ties
1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.

This definition requires a second.

spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7642643 - 11/16/07 12:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

self /sɛlf/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[self] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural selves, adjective, pronoun, plural selves, verb
–noun
1. a person or thing referred to with respect to complete individuality: one's own self.
2. a person's nature, character, etc.: his better self.
3. personal interest.
4. Philosophy.
a. the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.
b. the uniting principle, as a soul, underlying all subjective experience.

im·prove·ment /ɪmˈpruvmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-proov-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an act of improving or the state of being improved.
2. a change or addition by which a thing is improved.
3. a person or thing that represents an advance on another in excellence or achievement: The new landlord is a great improvement over his greedy predecessor.
4. a bringing into a more valuable or desirable condition, as of land or real property; betterment.
5. something done or added to real property that increases its value.
6. profitable use, as of a period of time.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineBoots
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7643283 - 11/16/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To be honest, I really don't consider myself spiritual. I believe in souls, life energy, spirit energy, etc. But it's nothing I focus on or give too much thought because I realize that at any moment, the keystone of my beliefs (or anybody's) could be removed and I'd have to rebuild my belief system all over again. I guess I see it as more important to not have any spiritual beliefs that you're firmly attached to.

As far as self-improvement goes, at any given moment I believe myself to be the epitome of perfection. Therefore, self-improvement doesn't concern me neither.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7643291 - 11/16/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure he can answer for himself, especially since I was asking what -his- definition was.

If I wanted to know what the dictionary said, I would look it up.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7643360 - 11/16/07 09:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

uplifting the human spirit is not a matter of acceptance though opening one's eyes to what is happenning and operating with a relaxed base are critical.
people erroneously call that acceptance.
it is more like the gentle unfolding of a lotus rooted in the moment


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7643442 - 11/16/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm sure he can answer for himself, especially since I was asking what -his- definition was.

If I wanted to know what the dictionary said, I would look it up.




If you did look them up... you'd realize how misleading your first post was.

I don't blame you for not wanting to look at the definitions.

Ignorance is bliss.

If you ever looked... you might feel compelled to admit you were wrong... God forbid.

Save your pride... ignore the meaning of the words you keep using!

This is a thread about Spirituality and Self Improvement... and yet you are talking about neither. Instead you made new definitions. This leads me to believe you are using the WRONG WORDS. There ARE WORDS which fit the definitions you are using... but those words are NEITHER "spirituality" nor "self improvement".

We have definitions for a reason.

Ignorant, creative definitions kill conversation... because NOBODY can really know what the other is talking about... nobody knows... but it sure smells like bullshit.


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Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
    #7643446 - 11/16/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

All true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
    #7644381 - 11/16/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>If you did look them up... you'd realize how misleading your first post was.

I am well aware of what the proper definitions are.

>>>>If you ever looked... you might feel compelled to admit you were wrong... God forbid.

I am not wrong, no matter how often you feel compelled to say so.

>>>>This is a thread about Spirituality and Self Improvement... and yet you are talking about neither. Instead you made new definitions. This leads me to believe you are using the WRONG WORDS. There ARE WORDS which fit the definitions you are using... but those words are NEITHER "spirituality" nor "self improvement".

It's a very narrow world you seem to live in. I frame things the way I do for a REASON. I have a message in mind, it is up to you to understand or ask questions, if you're curious.

>>>>Ignorant, creative definitions kill conversation... because NOBODY can really know what the other is talking about... nobody knows... but it sure smells like bullshit.

I trust everyone to use their own nose. Your statement is "overly broad". Some people will understand the message, some people won't. I'm OK with that.

I was sitting here last night trying to wonder what your problem -really- was, and I realized you have been giving me "unsolicited advice". As soon as I realized that I had my answer.

The world is my mirror. A very valuable, and wise saying.

This all started in another thread when I gave you unsolicited advice. "Perhaps you should..." I gave out unsolicited advice, and the favor was returned, in spades. I apologise for advising you without your consent. I will try my very best to make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Thanks for the lesson. Perhaps, it is one I will have to learn again, I appreciate it all the same.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7644392 - 11/16/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)


This all started in another thread when I gave you unsolicited advice. "Perhaps you should..." I gave out unsolicited advice, and the favor was returned, in spades. I apologise for advising you without your consent. I will try my very best to make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Thanks for the lesson. Perhaps, it is one I will have to learn again, I appreciate it all the same.


Hey are you trying to worm your way out of the big mess you got yourself in?:rofl2: Try what I do and stay on the attack and if they don't back down quickly post "well you may be right" and then never return to that thread.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Icelander]
    #7644444 - 11/16/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No, I'm not backing down from my point in this thread, one bit.

However, if I am wrong about something, and I realize it, I will say so. He's really gone out on a limb trying to get to me, even though he's not framing it that way, and it is due in part to my own actions. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong... as often as I can.:tongue:

I'm kinda hoping he and I can be more friendly towards one another, but everything I've said in this thread stands. Popular opinion, or the illusion of popular opinion, mean very little to me.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7644488 - 11/16/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Aside from the instinctive desire to live, avoid death and procreate, the only purpose ton continue life is to learn and experience.

Self Improvement falls within that path.
When you quit learning, and becoming more evolved and interested, the cosmos loses interest in you and turns you into a statistic.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Icelander]
    #7644499 - 11/16/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Hey are you trying to worm your way out of the big mess you got yourself in?

What mess? :wink:

>>>>Try what I do and stay on the attack and if they don't back down quickly post "well you may be right" and then never return to that thread.

That just seems so very wrong.:tongue:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Fraggin]
    #7644536 - 11/16/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
Aside from the instinctive desire to live, avoid death and procreate, the only purpose ton continue life is to learn and experience.

Self Improvement falls within that path.
When you quit learning, and becoming more evolved and interested, the cosmos loses interest in you and turns you into a statistic.




It is the experience which I have been referring to in this thread. It requires no learning, no improvement, and is perhaps the only thing that is important.

I am referring to self improvement as an egoic thought form, not as something that happens because of experience. I think a lot of people get stuck in self improvement, and forget the joy of life because they're so worried about improving. It's all "necessary" of course, but if someone can find it within themselves to feel joy and exuberance for life RIGHT NOW, that would be pretty cool.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7644655 - 11/16/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Then I would presume its related to one's motive in life.

To some extent, it's not possible to enjoy everything that life has to offer without self improvement to some degree.

Some aspects of life cannot be experienced by just anyone because of society's limits. Status quo isnt always fair.

Unless you've improved yourself to a degree, you may never experience a fresh maine lobster dinner.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7644659 - 11/16/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

He's really gone out on a limb trying to get to me, even though he's not framing it that way, and it is due in part to my own actions.

I could be wrong but I doubt it. He seems like hes just debating your ideas.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Fraggin]
    #7644714 - 11/16/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Unless you've improved yourself to a degree, you may never experience a fresh maine lobster dinner.

I submit that only the ego cares about fresh maine lobster. Not that there's anything -wrong- with that goal. A person can choose to want and strive for fresh maine lobster, and be happy with what they've got, -regardless- of whether they ever get lobster or not, or a person can choose to feel incomplete until they get that lobster. This is my point, the idea that happiness must have stipulations is incorrect. A persons karma leads them to all kinds of stipulations, but it's illusion.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Icelander]
    #7645360 - 11/16/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
He's really gone out on a limb trying to get to me, even though he's not framing it that way, and it is due in part to my own actions.

I could be wrong but I doubt it. He seems like hes just debating your ideas.




Rahz fails to realize something... but he probably won't like it... because it has to do with definitions.

Quote:


fo·rum      /ˈfɔrəm, ˈfoʊrəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-uhm, fohr-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural fo·rums, fo·ra      /ˈfɔrə, ˈfoʊrə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-uh, fohr-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.
1. the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city, the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people.
2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion.
3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.




See, a FORUM is a place to DEBATE... to share DIFFERENT OPINIONS... a place to VOICE YOUR CONCERNS... while OTHERS do the SAME THING. Rahz mistakes my proper use of this FORUM (and the English language) for something much more devious in nature.

I've argued with every VETERAN in this forum... sometimes for months at a time... and I have grown to like almost all of them in the process.

If we all saw things the same way this would be a very boring place.

At least, when I talk to Rahz, I usually disagree with him. That's good for this FORUM. It is also, good for me... I LIVE TO ARGUE.

If he thinks we're "FIGHTING"... perhaps he's got the definition wrong on that word too. :tongue:

I have a proud tradition of taking the unpopular side of an argument... stating that UNCOMFORTABLE truth. That is all.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/16/07 07:36 PM)


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7645775 - 11/16/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
This is my point, the idea that happiness must have stipulations is incorrect. A persons karma leads them to all kinds of stipulations, but it's illusion.




Without stipulations, happiness could not be defined. Can you define happiness without making it synonymous with being content?


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
    #7646501 - 11/17/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We're not "fighting", but If we cannot discuss concepts because of the possibility of confusion, then we're cutting out a large part of what's potentially discussable. I dunno, I have no beef, I think we're both wondering if the other person is pissed, when it's not actually a big deal.

BUT, if I present a topic, with an IDEA, I don't really have in mind what I wasn't thinking about. I actually know what I wasn't thinking about, and that it will likely be a reply in some form or another, but I can't really reply to "your definition is wrong" other than to try and elaborate on what my definition is. I plan on being controversial, and other than "your definitions are wrong", if the reply is missing what I'm getting at, I'll try to explain the topic at hand. I'm not saying my definitions are ultimate, just that they're up for consideration because I started a thread on it.

Take "pride" for instance.

1- A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2- An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.

They are both correct, but contradict each other.

So...

Self improvement IS CRAP. We think we're on the road to Rome, when we're actually already in Rome. When we get there, we'll find that we were already there. If there is a need to be enlightened, there is no enlightenment. An acceptance of what currently IS, is all that is required to experience enlightenment, everything else will take care of itself in the way it needs to. We will explore different avenues of thought, climb different mountains, experience failure and success in different ways, be happy about it or angry about it. This could be done forever. If we are not depending on these experiences to give or take things from our spiritual life, then we can realize right now that we are enlightened, always have been, and always will be.

We may be confused about different things, but enlightenment doesn't corner the market on logic. It may help, but if enlightenment exists, and someone is enlightened, they do not know EVERYTHING. They just accept that they do not know everything, that it has nothing to do with enlightenment, and carry on. Self improvement does not lead to being spiritual, or more spiritual, because we are all already as spiritual as we can be. I think babys experience enlightenment, and yet they know nothing of the things that can be improved upon. They are enlightened because they do not yet believe they aren't.

I'm saying perhaps we should entertain the idea that there is nothing special to "seek" in this way. If we are seeking enlightenment and a spiritual existence, we are also denying ourselves the enjoyment of enlightenment and a spiritual existence. Why seek what we already have? Perhaps it takes a lot of seeking to realize we don't need to seek. It's a paradox.

I'm asking that people wrap their minds around the idea. If it's indicated that it's "understood, but..." then we can have further discussion on this topic. To be simply told that I'm wrong, or confused about definitions, is missing my point.


--------------------
rahz

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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Fraggin]
    #7646540 - 11/17/07 01:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Without stipulations, happiness could not be defined. Can you define happiness without making it synonymous with being content?

Happiness is the condition of not having stipulations.

If we are concerned about proper definitions, I would argue that happiness comes from "happen". We cannot create happiness, only get in the way of it. If we do not get in the way of it with stipulations, it just happens.

When a person has a stipulation met, they find themselves in a condition of happiness because all the sudden, they no longer have a stipulation on their mind. As soon as a stipulation for happiness arises, the happiness disappears.

We can have a desire to learn new things, and become more than we already are without making it a stipulation of happiness. Or, we can run from stipulation to stipulation trying to create happiness and having very little.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (11/17/07 01:23 AM)


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7646573 - 11/17/07 02:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps you're right...


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Fiddlesticks.



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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7646921 - 11/17/07 07:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

jonathan_206
Quote:

Self improvement is not just a letting go of the "ego". It's not just about losing bad things like pride, it's also about gaining.




If the soul is perfect, then it needs not gain anything. So if the only thing that is preventing one from seeing and knowing his soul is his wrong choices(the ego) then, stripping away the ego, will lead to uncovering the soul.

And this can be the only proper use of learning.

Quote:

Are you implying that you can step outside of time?



I'm implying that knowledge is beyond time, and that knowledge rests with our soul in eternal grace with God. So when I say we KNOW ourselves outside of time, I'm saying simply, that when one knows, they are not constrained by time. And not being constrained by time, they have no need for learning.

Though until one reaches this state perfectly, they must learn to do so.


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Boundless]
    #7648535 - 11/17/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

One of the biggest problems with your world view is that, it simply doesn't work.

We are creatures that depend upon the outside world, to sustain our needs and desires. Our desires, for instance to have comfort, fellowship, food, learn, these are things that are deeply ingrained into our sense of humanity. In reality, we cannot always be completely happy with no worries. In reality, we are required to use our ability to measure and determine value to live and function in everyday life, and perform logic and reason. We come head to head with these realities and we find that this world is not perfect, and there is corruption in humanity, and we must strive to find the right path in life. Before you ever came to this opinion, you had to work to come to the believe you hold now.

When you use the word perfect, it implies that there is a possibility for inperfection. Therefore to tell anyone all they have to do is accept their perfection and stop trying to learn is innacurate and will lead you and others on the wrong path.


The truth is we all all constrained by time and the realities of nature. The key is to find true safety and security. Because let's face it, there is danger out there. And there are things to be afraid of. Then once you've found it rest in that security. The key is to allow for desires and goals which are essential aspects of humanity which need to be expressed through feelings and actions, and yet not be anxious for anything.


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7650165 - 11/18/07 07:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In reality, we cannot always be completely happy with no worries. In reality, we are required to use our ability to measure and determine value to live and function in everyday life, and perform logic and reason




No matter whats going on in the outside world, there is an internal resting place of peace within us. I think people should strive to find it, rather then give up hope of attaining perfection.

Quote:

We come head to head with these realities and we find that this world is not perfect, and there is corruption in humanity, and we must strive to find the right path in life.




This world IS full of corruption, but its ourselves that choose to engage and believe in the corruption. If we hold it dear to us, then we ourselves become corrupted.

Quote:

Before you ever came to this opinion, you had to work to come to the believe you hold now



I simply sought the truth, and always knew that there was completion.

Quote:

When you use the word perfect, it implies that there is a possibility for inperfection



Perfection is simple in its totality.

Quote:

Therefore to tell anyone all they have to do is accept their perfection and stop trying to learn is innacurate and will lead you and others on the wrong path.



The idea is to uncover their perfection and HEAL their imperfections, thus bringing themselves to truth.

Quote:

The truth is we all all constrained by time and the realities of nature. The key is to find true safety and security.




True safety and security rests OUT of time. Truth itself is not held back by the laws of space and time.

If truth were to be under the laws of space and time, then any sense of "true" safety we would find would be subject to laws of death and decay, which would make it directly opposed to something that is safe and secure, for who can take refuge in a dying world?

Quote:

The key is to allow for desires and goals which are essential aspects of humanity which need to be expressed through feelings and actions, and yet not be anxious for anything.



Desires need not be expressed. Goals are required for interacting with the world. Feelings are felt and let go. Actions are performed residing in a place of truth. Anxiousness need not be.


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
    #7650760 - 11/18/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I know that I am right.:)

I like to debate. I like to improve. They are the same. This issue is also worth debating I suppose. It's the idea that we can become so caught up in improving that we forget the real reason we're doing it. Improvement can become it's own goal.

Sometimes I look down to find that I am holding things I do not wish to hold. I shake my hands free of all of it. I become empty and it feels very nice. It is a state of no effort, and if there is perfection I can't help but believe this is it. A short time later I may find my hands are full again.

Sometimes it's difficult to shake it off. I will scream and cuss god for all it is worth. When I am done, and the noise is gone, in the silence I hear god laughing at me. The only real choice I have is to laugh back.

In a way, this thread is a celebration of life. An invitation to stop and -give thanks- for existence and the gift of life.

We are all dieing to live.

It is a very beautiful thing to me. This thread may not have come this far without your help. Thank you.

--------------

Comfort and security are desirable things to provide for ourselves and our families. But comfort and security are dangerous and deadly to the spirit.

I believe Jesus died because of our sins, perhaps for them, definitely because of them. Was the path Jesus laid down for us a path of comfort and security? Was he seeking comfort and security? I like to think Jesus liked to live dangerously.;)


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7651439 - 11/18/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Spirituality -vs- self improvement. How can one oppose the other. They are different elements of the same thing.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7651585 - 11/18/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

spirit energy, why is a belief required? is it not tangible; capable of being experienced?

spirit is connected with mind and body. what is experienced in one aspect affects the others. realizing that there is a spirit, one may want to self improve in mind and body because all are important and intertwined.

rahz, i would argue that happiness can be created. a thoughtful gift at christmas, a donation to someone in need or lending a listening ear could all do the trick and all need conscious intent.


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7653281 - 11/19/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Spirituality -vs- self improvement. How can one oppose the other. They are different elements of the same thing.




It's the difference between wanting to improve, and needing to improve. If we are only wanting to improve, we are acknowledging that we are perfect just the way we are, and are aware that we are spiritual. This is spirituality (IMO). Awareness of spirit. Awareness of being.

If improvement is a necessity, we are in denial of our current perfection, and mostly unaware that we are spiritual beings. It is this type of improvement that I speak of. It is like a cult, and enlightenment is the ring leader, someone to worship and secretly be jealous of.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: WScott]
    #7653374 - 11/19/07 02:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>rahz, i would argue that happiness can be created. a thoughtful gift at christmas, a donation to someone in need or lending a listening ear could all do the trick and all need conscious intent.

If a person receives a gift which makes them forget their troubles for a while, happiness occurs. A donation relieves a problem, happiness occurs. If a person expresses their problems, they lighten their load and happiness occurs. We can not create happiness, but we can remove the obstacles that prevent happiness. If a person had no obstacles, they would be happy before the gift.

It may seem like we are creating instances of happiness, but happiness is created each moment unless we prevent it. So we help people remove obstacles, and happiness is the state of having no obstacles.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7653392 - 11/19/07 02:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We are not perfect the way we are... EVER. Improvement can go on and on for eons, and still never achieve the state of perfection. Being mentally stable despite external circumstances brings an element of contentment and inner peace to ones sense of being. Mental collectedness, and tranquility emerge bringing confidence to our daily actions and clarity into the nature of our mind. With that type of confidence, improvement occurs naturally, without effort. This to me IS spirituality.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement *DELETED* [Re: psyka]
    #7653733 - 11/19/07 07:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by soulcircus (11/19/07 07:37 AM)


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: psyka]
    #7653835 - 11/19/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Spiritual growth is perfect.
The fight against entropy is perfect.
Entropy is also perfect.

Everything is as it should be. A desire to change, and having a problem with perfection are two different things.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: soulcircus]
    #7653872 - 11/19/07 08:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>i think spirituaity and self improvement are the same thing.

They can be.

A girl at work is looking for anger managment classes. She get's angry, and then automatically get's VERY angry because she is angry. She can accept that she get's angry, and work on it, or she can have a problem with getting angry. Her attempts to improve are useless because she refuses to accept things as they are.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7655710 - 11/19/07 04:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
If we are only wanting to improve, we are acknowledging that we are perfect just the way we are, and are aware that we are spiritual.




If you desire more than you currently have, it's because you're not content with what you have. This statement makes no logical sense to me.
Also, anything or any person that does not continue to improve only degrades and becomes stagnant. Neither of which are happy states to be in.


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Fraggin]
    #7655942 - 11/19/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>If you desire more than you currently have, it's because you're not content with what you have. This statement makes no logical sense to me.

You can choose to want progress, and still be content with who you are, unless you are basing your happiness on what you have, which is egoic happiness. You identify what you are with the world of form, and not with your spirit. There is a fear that being content with who you are will result in entropy. This is just a fear, and is not a truth. It is the opposite of a truth. It is egoic truth.

>>>>Also, anything or any person that does not continue to improve only degrades and becomes stagnant. Neither of which are happy states to be in.

Humans improve because it is our nature. No one wants to become stagnant, yet it happens. It happens because of all the fear and worry of not being enough. It's stress over the possibility of not reaching some obscure finality that is hurtful, and can actually prevent us from reaching our potential.

People become unhappy because they don't believe they deserve to be happy. They must first "do something", or "figure something out" in order to deserve happiness. This is not true. We can be happy and do things. We can be happy and figure things out. Why must our happiness hinge on it?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7656683 - 11/19/07 08:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
>>>>If you desire more than you currently have, it's because you're not content with what you have. This statement makes no logical sense to me.

You can choose to want progress, and still be content with who you are, unless you are basing your happiness on what you have, which is egoic happiness. You identify what you are with the world of form, and not with your spirit. There is a fear that being content with who you are will result in entropy. This is just a fear, and is not a truth. It is the opposite of a truth. It is egoic truth.

>>>>Also, anything or any person that does not continue to improve only degrades and becomes stagnant. Neither of which are happy states to be in.

Humans improve because it is our nature. No one wants to become stagnant, yet it happens. It happens because of all the fear and worry of not being enough. It's stress over the possibility of not reaching some obscure finality that is hurtful, and can actually prevent us from reaching our potential.

People become unhappy because they don't believe they deserve to be happy. They must first "do something", or "figure something out" in order to deserve happiness. This is not true. We can be happy and do things. We can be happy and figure things out. Why must our happiness hinge on it?




Happiness is nothing more than a consequense of novelty. And the historical action of novelty suggests that as time progresses, states of novelty and non-novelty fluctuate. If you have no basis to compare a state of novelty to, then you are simply in a state of undefineable entropy. But because non-novelty exists dichotomously with novelty, happiness is given a frame of reference on the foundation of happiness and unhappiness. It would seem possible that a constant state happiness is rather impossible. Perhaps the occurrence of happiness and unhappiness is cyclic, and that in itself can nullify the fear of entropy, if discpline is applied to the idea that nothing will remain constant. Even a state of non-novelty or unhappiness.


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Fraggin]
    #7658998 - 11/20/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No reason is needed for happiness. It can be experienced, just because. It is anger and sadness that are efforts.

I am not saying we should all enter unending states of bliss immediately, or that it is possible, but people hold onto their anger. Everyone has their reasons, but now is the only time to let go if that is what is desired. A person cannot be angry for more than a minute or so, unless they try. The happiness I speak of IS acceptance of what is, and of change. This may not seem to be "happiness", but it is. It is not always an exuberant feeling, busting out with excessive positivity. It's an appreciation of whatever is being felt. I enjoy being sad, I enjoy being angry. As a result, sadness and anger become short lived. They are lessons instead of problems. It does not seem to be a logical thing. In fact is is -very- bothersome to the ego, but the only other choice I have is to have a problem with sadness and anger, and that is self perpetuating.

It takes work, but it is not the work of a lifetime. It is not the big insurmountable task many people come to believe it is. If a person can be OK right now with right Now, it is the same skill they will have 50 years from now.

This can be a disappointment, or a revelation. On the level of spirit, there is no future.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7660989 - 11/20/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't believe in spirituality as a means to an end. I don't believe in morality as a means to an end. That is because spiritual fulfillment is not in the future, it is NOW. To me, spiritual perfection is dropping any expectation that you will "become" perfect. Spirituality means being accepting of your own faults and limitations, but at the same time also striving to realize your full potential as a human being. However, your potential may not be as great as Gandhi's, or the Dalai Lama's. Spiritual progress comes when you stop caring so much about "progress" however you try to define it.

Am I making sense?


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times."
--Bill Hicks

"Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power."
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: subconsciousness]
    #7661141 - 11/20/07 11:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That makes perfect sense.:yesnod:

Spirituality is crap!

no, no...

Self improvement is crap!

:lol:


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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