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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
#7644381 - 11/16/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>>If you did look them up... you'd realize how misleading your first post was.
I am well aware of what the proper definitions are.
>>>>If you ever looked... you might feel compelled to admit you were wrong... God forbid.
I am not wrong, no matter how often you feel compelled to say so.
>>>>This is a thread about Spirituality and Self Improvement... and yet you are talking about neither. Instead you made new definitions. This leads me to believe you are using the WRONG WORDS. There ARE WORDS which fit the definitions you are using... but those words are NEITHER "spirituality" nor "self improvement".
It's a very narrow world you seem to live in. I frame things the way I do for a REASON. I have a message in mind, it is up to you to understand or ask questions, if you're curious.
>>>>Ignorant, creative definitions kill conversation... because NOBODY can really know what the other is talking about... nobody knows... but it sure smells like bullshit.
I trust everyone to use their own nose. Your statement is "overly broad". Some people will understand the message, some people won't. I'm OK with that.
I was sitting here last night trying to wonder what your problem -really- was, and I realized you have been giving me "unsolicited advice". As soon as I realized that I had my answer.
The world is my mirror. A very valuable, and wise saying.
This all started in another thread when I gave you unsolicited advice. "Perhaps you should..." I gave out unsolicited advice, and the favor was returned, in spades. I apologise for advising you without your consent. I will try my very best to make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Thanks for the lesson. Perhaps, it is one I will have to learn again, I appreciate it all the same.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
#7644392 - 11/16/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This all started in another thread when I gave you unsolicited advice. "Perhaps you should..." I gave out unsolicited advice, and the favor was returned, in spades. I apologise for advising you without your consent. I will try my very best to make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Thanks for the lesson. Perhaps, it is one I will have to learn again, I appreciate it all the same.
Hey are you trying to worm your way out of the big mess you got yourself in? Try what I do and stay on the attack and if they don't back down quickly post "well you may be right" and then never return to that thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Icelander]
#7644444 - 11/16/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, I'm not backing down from my point in this thread, one bit.
However, if I am wrong about something, and I realize it, I will say so. He's really gone out on a limb trying to get to me, even though he's not framing it that way, and it is due in part to my own actions. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong... as often as I can.
I'm kinda hoping he and I can be more friendly towards one another, but everything I've said in this thread stands. Popular opinion, or the illusion of popular opinion, mean very little to me.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Fraggin
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
#7644488 - 11/16/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Aside from the instinctive desire to live, avoid death and procreate, the only purpose ton continue life is to learn and experience.
Self Improvement falls within that path. When you quit learning, and becoming more evolved and interested, the cosmos loses interest in you and turns you into a statistic.
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Icelander]
#7644499 - 11/16/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>>Hey are you trying to worm your way out of the big mess you got yourself in?
What mess? 
>>>>Try what I do and stay on the attack and if they don't back down quickly post "well you may be right" and then never return to that thread.
That just seems so very wrong.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Fraggin]
#7644536 - 11/16/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fraggin said: Aside from the instinctive desire to live, avoid death and procreate, the only purpose ton continue life is to learn and experience.
Self Improvement falls within that path. When you quit learning, and becoming more evolved and interested, the cosmos loses interest in you and turns you into a statistic.
It is the experience which I have been referring to in this thread. It requires no learning, no improvement, and is perhaps the only thing that is important.
I am referring to self improvement as an egoic thought form, not as something that happens because of experience. I think a lot of people get stuck in self improvement, and forget the joy of life because they're so worried about improving. It's all "necessary" of course, but if someone can find it within themselves to feel joy and exuberance for life RIGHT NOW, that would be pretty cool.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Fraggin
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
#7644655 - 11/16/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Then I would presume its related to one's motive in life.
To some extent, it's not possible to enjoy everything that life has to offer without self improvement to some degree.
Some aspects of life cannot be experienced by just anyone because of society's limits. Status quo isnt always fair.
Unless you've improved yourself to a degree, you may never experience a fresh maine lobster dinner.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
#7644659 - 11/16/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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He's really gone out on a limb trying to get to me, even though he's not framing it that way, and it is due in part to my own actions.
I could be wrong but I doubt it. He seems like hes just debating your ideas.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Fraggin]
#7644714 - 11/16/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>>Unless you've improved yourself to a degree, you may never experience a fresh maine lobster dinner.
I submit that only the ego cares about fresh maine lobster. Not that there's anything -wrong- with that goal. A person can choose to want and strive for fresh maine lobster, and be happy with what they've got, -regardless- of whether they ever get lobster or not, or a person can choose to feel incomplete until they get that lobster. This is my point, the idea that happiness must have stipulations is incorrect. A persons karma leads them to all kinds of stipulations, but it's illusion.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rose
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Icelander]
#7645360 - 11/16/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: He's really gone out on a limb trying to get to me, even though he's not framing it that way, and it is due in part to my own actions.
I could be wrong but I doubt it. He seems like hes just debating your ideas.
Rahz fails to realize something... but he probably won't like it... because it has to do with definitions.
Quote:
fo·rum /ˈfɔrəm, ˈfoʊrəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-uhm, fohr-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural fo·rums, fo·ra /ˈfɔrə, ˈfoʊrə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-uh, fohr-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. 1. the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city, the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people. 2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion. 3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.
See, a FORUM is a place to DEBATE... to share DIFFERENT OPINIONS... a place to VOICE YOUR CONCERNS... while OTHERS do the SAME THING. Rahz mistakes my proper use of this FORUM (and the English language) for something much more devious in nature.
I've argued with every VETERAN in this forum... sometimes for months at a time... and I have grown to like almost all of them in the process.
If we all saw things the same way this would be a very boring place.
At least, when I talk to Rahz, I usually disagree with him. That's good for this FORUM. It is also, good for me... I LIVE TO ARGUE.
If he thinks we're "FIGHTING"... perhaps he's got the definition wrong on that word too. 
I have a proud tradition of taking the unpopular side of an argument... stating that UNCOMFORTABLE truth. That is all.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (11/16/07 07:36 PM)
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted



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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
#7645775 - 11/16/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: This is my point, the idea that happiness must have stipulations is incorrect. A persons karma leads them to all kinds of stipulations, but it's illusion.
Without stipulations, happiness could not be defined. Can you define happiness without making it synonymous with being content?
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
#7646501 - 11/17/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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We're not "fighting", but If we cannot discuss concepts because of the possibility of confusion, then we're cutting out a large part of what's potentially discussable. I dunno, I have no beef, I think we're both wondering if the other person is pissed, when it's not actually a big deal.
BUT, if I present a topic, with an IDEA, I don't really have in mind what I wasn't thinking about. I actually know what I wasn't thinking about, and that it will likely be a reply in some form or another, but I can't really reply to "your definition is wrong" other than to try and elaborate on what my definition is. I plan on being controversial, and other than "your definitions are wrong", if the reply is missing what I'm getting at, I'll try to explain the topic at hand. I'm not saying my definitions are ultimate, just that they're up for consideration because I started a thread on it.
Take "pride" for instance.
1- A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect. 2- An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
They are both correct, but contradict each other.
So...
Self improvement IS CRAP. We think we're on the road to Rome, when we're actually already in Rome. When we get there, we'll find that we were already there. If there is a need to be enlightened, there is no enlightenment. An acceptance of what currently IS, is all that is required to experience enlightenment, everything else will take care of itself in the way it needs to. We will explore different avenues of thought, climb different mountains, experience failure and success in different ways, be happy about it or angry about it. This could be done forever. If we are not depending on these experiences to give or take things from our spiritual life, then we can realize right now that we are enlightened, always have been, and always will be.
We may be confused about different things, but enlightenment doesn't corner the market on logic. It may help, but if enlightenment exists, and someone is enlightened, they do not know EVERYTHING. They just accept that they do not know everything, that it has nothing to do with enlightenment, and carry on. Self improvement does not lead to being spiritual, or more spiritual, because we are all already as spiritual as we can be. I think babys experience enlightenment, and yet they know nothing of the things that can be improved upon. They are enlightened because they do not yet believe they aren't.
I'm saying perhaps we should entertain the idea that there is nothing special to "seek" in this way. If we are seeking enlightenment and a spiritual existence, we are also denying ourselves the enjoyment of enlightenment and a spiritual existence. Why seek what we already have? Perhaps it takes a lot of seeking to realize we don't need to seek. It's a paradox.
I'm asking that people wrap their minds around the idea. If it's indicated that it's "understood, but..." then we can have further discussion on this topic. To be simply told that I'm wrong, or confused about definitions, is missing my point.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Fraggin]
#7646540 - 11/17/07 01:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>>Without stipulations, happiness could not be defined. Can you define happiness without making it synonymous with being content?
Happiness is the condition of not having stipulations.
If we are concerned about proper definitions, I would argue that happiness comes from "happen". We cannot create happiness, only get in the way of it. If we do not get in the way of it with stipulations, it just happens.
When a person has a stipulation met, they find themselves in a condition of happiness because all the sudden, they no longer have a stipulation on their mind. As soon as a stipulation for happiness arises, the happiness disappears.
We can have a desire to learn new things, and become more than we already are without making it a stipulation of happiness. Or, we can run from stipulation to stipulation trying to create happiness and having very little.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (11/17/07 01:23 AM)
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Rose
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
#7646573 - 11/17/07 02:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Perhaps you're right...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Boundless
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7646921 - 11/17/07 07:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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jonathan_206
Quote:
Self improvement is not just a letting go of the "ego". It's not just about losing bad things like pride, it's also about gaining.
If the soul is perfect, then it needs not gain anything. So if the only thing that is preventing one from seeing and knowing his soul is his wrong choices(the ego) then, stripping away the ego, will lead to uncovering the soul.
And this can be the only proper use of learning.
Quote:
Are you implying that you can step outside of time?
I'm implying that knowledge is beyond time, and that knowledge rests with our soul in eternal grace with God. So when I say we KNOW ourselves outside of time, I'm saying simply, that when one knows, they are not constrained by time. And not being constrained by time, they have no need for learning.
Though until one reaches this state perfectly, they must learn to do so.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Boundless]
#7648535 - 11/17/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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One of the biggest problems with your world view is that, it simply doesn't work.
We are creatures that depend upon the outside world, to sustain our needs and desires. Our desires, for instance to have comfort, fellowship, food, learn, these are things that are deeply ingrained into our sense of humanity. In reality, we cannot always be completely happy with no worries. In reality, we are required to use our ability to measure and determine value to live and function in everyday life, and perform logic and reason. We come head to head with these realities and we find that this world is not perfect, and there is corruption in humanity, and we must strive to find the right path in life. Before you ever came to this opinion, you had to work to come to the believe you hold now.
When you use the word perfect, it implies that there is a possibility for inperfection. Therefore to tell anyone all they have to do is accept their perfection and stop trying to learn is innacurate and will lead you and others on the wrong path.
The truth is we all all constrained by time and the realities of nature. The key is to find true safety and security. Because let's face it, there is danger out there. And there are things to be afraid of. Then once you've found it rest in that security. The key is to allow for desires and goals which are essential aspects of humanity which need to be expressed through feelings and actions, and yet not be anxious for anything.
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Boundless
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7650165 - 11/18/07 07:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
In reality, we cannot always be completely happy with no worries. In reality, we are required to use our ability to measure and determine value to live and function in everyday life, and perform logic and reason
No matter whats going on in the outside world, there is an internal resting place of peace within us. I think people should strive to find it, rather then give up hope of attaining perfection.
Quote:
We come head to head with these realities and we find that this world is not perfect, and there is corruption in humanity, and we must strive to find the right path in life.
This world IS full of corruption, but its ourselves that choose to engage and believe in the corruption. If we hold it dear to us, then we ourselves become corrupted.
Quote:
Before you ever came to this opinion, you had to work to come to the believe you hold now
I simply sought the truth, and always knew that there was completion.
Quote:
When you use the word perfect, it implies that there is a possibility for inperfection
Perfection is simple in its totality.
Quote:
Therefore to tell anyone all they have to do is accept their perfection and stop trying to learn is innacurate and will lead you and others on the wrong path.
The idea is to uncover their perfection and HEAL their imperfections, thus bringing themselves to truth.
Quote:
The truth is we all all constrained by time and the realities of nature. The key is to find true safety and security.
True safety and security rests OUT of time. Truth itself is not held back by the laws of space and time.
If truth were to be under the laws of space and time, then any sense of "true" safety we would find would be subject to laws of death and decay, which would make it directly opposed to something that is safe and secure, for who can take refuge in a dying world?
Quote:
The key is to allow for desires and goals which are essential aspects of humanity which need to be expressed through feelings and actions, and yet not be anxious for anything.
Desires need not be expressed. Goals are required for interacting with the world. Feelings are felt and let go. Actions are performed residing in a place of truth. Anxiousness need not be.
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Rahz
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
#7650760 - 11/18/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know that I am right.:)
I like to debate. I like to improve. They are the same. This issue is also worth debating I suppose. It's the idea that we can become so caught up in improving that we forget the real reason we're doing it. Improvement can become it's own goal.
Sometimes I look down to find that I am holding things I do not wish to hold. I shake my hands free of all of it. I become empty and it feels very nice. It is a state of no effort, and if there is perfection I can't help but believe this is it. A short time later I may find my hands are full again.
Sometimes it's difficult to shake it off. I will scream and cuss god for all it is worth. When I am done, and the noise is gone, in the silence I hear god laughing at me. The only real choice I have is to laugh back.
In a way, this thread is a celebration of life. An invitation to stop and -give thanks- for existence and the gift of life.
We are all dieing to live.
It is a very beautiful thing to me. This thread may not have come this far without your help. Thank you.
--------------
Comfort and security are desirable things to provide for ourselves and our families. But comfort and security are dangerous and deadly to the spirit.
I believe Jesus died because of our sins, perhaps for them, definitely because of them. Was the path Jesus laid down for us a path of comfort and security? Was he seeking comfort and security? I like to think Jesus liked to live dangerously.;)
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
#7651439 - 11/18/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Spirituality -vs- self improvement. How can one oppose the other. They are different elements of the same thing.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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WScott
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7651585 - 11/18/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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spirit energy, why is a belief required? is it not tangible; capable of being experienced?
spirit is connected with mind and body. what is experienced in one aspect affects the others. realizing that there is a spirit, one may want to self improve in mind and body because all are important and intertwined.
rahz, i would argue that happiness can be created. a thoughtful gift at christmas, a donation to someone in need or lending a listening ear could all do the trick and all need conscious intent.
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