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InvisibleRahz
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Spirituality -vs- self improvement
    #7639315 - 11/15/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I thought it might be cool to get different opinions on the difference between these two concepts.

Spirituality - an acceptance of what is Now. It will always be good enough.

Self Improvement - the idea that I'm not good enough, but that at some point in the future, I will be... but not without constaint struggle.

Self improvement is the ego's way of making sure the future never arrives. When I first found a spiritual path, I constaintly bounced between these two states. It still happens, and I think experiencing the contrast between them begins to make it clear that self improvement is bull shit.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7639374 - 11/15/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Traveling forward on a spiritual path inevitably improves upon who you were. IMO


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7639463 - 11/15/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I thought it might be cool to get different opinions on the difference between these two concepts.

Spirituality - an acceptance of what is Now. It will always be good enough.

Self Improvement - the idea that I'm not good enough, but that at some point in the future, I will be... but not without constaint struggle.

Self improvement is the ego's way of making sure the future never arrives. When I first found a spiritual path, I constaintly bounced between these two states. It still happens, and I think experiencing the contrast between them begins to make it clear that self improvement is bull shit.




Self improvement is what life is all about. We grow we learn and things improve. Roll on your back, crawl, walk, run. Same for the intellect and emotions IMO. It's a choice to see self-improvement in terms of not being good enough. But look at a baby learning to walk. It fails and falls again and again. Were it to judge it's falls as failure then it would become depressed and give up and never learn to walk. It doesn't do that however. I is unattached to results but instead is motivated by desire to do, or to attempt to do.

Most spirituality IMO is without basis in fact or merit. It's often used to tell oneself that we are not good enough as we are. So that can be all fucked up too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Icelander]
    #7639539 - 11/15/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, you're both right.

I guess the distinction is that some spiritual people withhold enjoyment as something that cannot be had without hard work and years of perseverance, when it's actually something that's available right now.

The actual improvements are an addition to being, not a substitute. This post isn't an attempt to slight the concept of improvement, just to take a look at it's dark side.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7639547 - 11/15/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Watch out for looking at the "dark" side of things. Redgreenvines might have to post in your thread.:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7640110 - 11/15/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Your definitions of those terms are a bit skewed.

Perhaps, next time... look them up, before telling us what they mean.

Semantics are a pain in the ass... yet they are very helpful when using TEXT as your primary means of communication.

Unless we can all agree on what a term means, we are not able to discuss it properly on a web forum. Not when people from all walks of life are free to post here...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineBoundless
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7640960 - 11/15/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

They both go perfectly well together.

With spirituality defining the end of the goal as the perfection of the self or becoming one with the spirit or God, and self improvement being a means to work to get that goal, we can see, that until we are perfect we must have both, the means to achieve the goal, and the end in mind.

So if self improvement can be called learning, which is in truth just a way of letting go of the ego, then we can see that although a being is in a perfected state already, they must learn to recognize this state in themselves AND others.

So IN time we learn how to be ourselves, and OUT of time, we KNOW ourselves, which is the key to being fully in the present.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7641822 - 11/15/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Your definitions of those terms are a bit skewed.

"I thought it might be cool to get different opinions on the difference between these two concepts."

Concepts. I defined my concepts. I correct myself/elaborate as needed, and kinda plan on modifying my concepts through this type of correspondance. Gotta start somewhere. :wink:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (11/15/07 08:59 PM)


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7641831 - 11/15/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

why not start at the end and go forward?


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Boundless]
    #7641880 - 11/15/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>They both go perfectly well together.

I agree completely with your post. What I'm talking about is the ego's version of improvement. It seems that as long as I have an ego, there will be that idea there (whether I heed it or not) that happiness can't occur until improvements are made.

I've disproven this to myself time after time, and yet ego still has the same opinion.

VH "You can analyze this situation to me it's all just mental
masturbation" "There's only one way to rock"


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7641895 - 11/15/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have to agree that your definitions are not right.

Quote:

Spirituality - an acceptance of what is Now. It will always be good enough.




That's a rather overly broad and innacurate statement. It is not necessarily an acceptance of what is now. It may not be good enough sometimes. You may have to go through not good times.

Spirituality, in simple terms, deal with spiritual matters that is things that pertain to spiritual creatures. You can come up with all sorts of things to call spiritual, but this has been the definition of spiritual.

Quote:


Self Improvement - the idea that I'm not good enough, but that at some point in the future, I will be... but not without constaint struggle.




It doesn't neccesarily have to be that way, although in this world it can be tough for anyone, some more than others def.

Quote:


Self improvement is the ego's way of making sure the future never arrives. When I first found a spiritual path, I constaintly bounced between these two states. It still happens, and I think experiencing the contrast between them begins to make it clear that self improvement is bull lalala.




Absolutely not. It's not the way to make sure the future never arrives. It's the only way to make sure the future arrive. You got it backwards.

I have to agree with with boundless they go with each other, although I have to disagree with the rest of the post.

Self improvement is not just a letting go of the "ego". It's not just about losing bad things like pride, it's also about gaining.

Quote:


So IN time we learn how to be ourselves, and OUT of time, we KNOW ourselves, which is the key to being fully in the present.




Are you implying that you can step outside of time?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642182 - 11/15/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>I have to agree that your definitions are not right.

They are concepts, so it is impossible for the definition to be wrong.

>>>>It may not be good enough sometimes. You may have to go through not good times.

I disagree with the first sentence, I agree with the second. The statement wasn't overly broad in my opinion. It's very simple, and broad, but not overly broad.

>>>>It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, although in this world it can be tough for anyone, some more than others def.

That's what I'm saying, it doesn't have to "be that way".

>>>>Absolutely not. It's not the way to make sure the future never arrives. It's the only way to make sure the future arrive. You got it backwards.

>>>>I have to agree with with boundless they go with each other, although I have to disagree with the rest of the post.

I don't have it backwards, the future is already here. It's not something to wait on. I also agree with boundless, perhaps more-so than you.

>>>>Self improvement is not just a letting go of the "ego".

That's not what I was defining as self improvement, though it's close to what I'm defining as spiritual. Self improvement is improving things, or forms. The egos idea is that it needs these things to improve, whereas spirit knows there is nothing to improve. It's all necessary, whether we like it or not. We get better at things we want to get better at, and hopefully move away from states and beliefs that hurt us. We deal with the hurt in the mean time, but trying to climb to absolute knowledge for salvation is just as bad as seeking comfort in absolute knowledge. If there is ever a time to feel complete and whole, it's right now. Perhaps this is the only thing we are truly trying to realize?

>>>>It's not just about losing bad things like pride, it's also about gaining.

Well, pride basically has two definitions, one good and one bad. I think we call arrogance "pride" because we're afraid of harming someone's feelings, or perhaps our own. It's also about gaining good things like pride.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642355 - 11/15/07 11:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Spirituality, in simple terms, deal with spiritual matters that is things that pertain to spiritual creatures.

Are you sure this is your definition of spirituality?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7642609 - 11/16/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

from dictionary.com

spir·i·tu·al·i·ty (spr-ch-l-t)
n. pl. spir·i·tu·al·i·ties
1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.

This definition requires a second.

spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7642643 - 11/16/07 12:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

self /sɛlf/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[self] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural selves, adjective, pronoun, plural selves, verb
–noun
1. a person or thing referred to with respect to complete individuality: one's own self.
2. a person's nature, character, etc.: his better self.
3. personal interest.
4. Philosophy.
a. the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.
b. the uniting principle, as a soul, underlying all subjective experience.

im·prove·ment /ɪmˈpruvmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-proov-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an act of improving or the state of being improved.
2. a change or addition by which a thing is improved.
3. a person or thing that represents an advance on another in excellence or achievement: The new landlord is a great improvement over his greedy predecessor.
4. a bringing into a more valuable or desirable condition, as of land or real property; betterment.
5. something done or added to real property that increases its value.
6. profitable use, as of a period of time.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineBoots
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7643283 - 11/16/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To be honest, I really don't consider myself spiritual. I believe in souls, life energy, spirit energy, etc. But it's nothing I focus on or give too much thought because I realize that at any moment, the keystone of my beliefs (or anybody's) could be removed and I'd have to rebuild my belief system all over again. I guess I see it as more important to not have any spiritual beliefs that you're firmly attached to.

As far as self-improvement goes, at any given moment I believe myself to be the epitome of perfection. Therefore, self-improvement doesn't concern me neither.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rose]
    #7643291 - 11/16/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure he can answer for himself, especially since I was asking what -his- definition was.

If I wanted to know what the dictionary said, I would look it up.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Spirituality -vs- self improvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7643360 - 11/16/07 09:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

uplifting the human spirit is not a matter of acceptance though opening one's eyes to what is happenning and operating with a relaxed base are critical.
people erroneously call that acceptance.
it is more like the gentle unfolding of a lotus rooted in the moment


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rahz]
    #7643442 - 11/16/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm sure he can answer for himself, especially since I was asking what -his- definition was.

If I wanted to know what the dictionary said, I would look it up.




If you did look them up... you'd realize how misleading your first post was.

I don't blame you for not wanting to look at the definitions.

Ignorance is bliss.

If you ever looked... you might feel compelled to admit you were wrong... God forbid.

Save your pride... ignore the meaning of the words you keep using!

This is a thread about Spirituality and Self Improvement... and yet you are talking about neither. Instead you made new definitions. This leads me to believe you are using the WRONG WORDS. There ARE WORDS which fit the definitions you are using... but those words are NEITHER "spirituality" nor "self improvement".

We have definitions for a reason.

Ignorant, creative definitions kill conversation... because NOBODY can really know what the other is talking about... nobody knows... but it sure smells like bullshit.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: SpiritPOOality -vs- self imPOOvement [Re: Rose]
    #7643446 - 11/16/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

All true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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