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 Visionary Tools
 
Registered: 06/23/07
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 Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything 
#7638989 - 11/15/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything
10:15a ET Thursday, November 15, 2007
Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:
The Liberty Dollar organization announced this morning, via the letter appended here, that federal agents today raised its offices in Evansville, Indiana, and confiscated all its property and equipment.
This moves seems extraordinarily bold considering that Liberty Dollar's right to operate already was being litigated in federal court.
Let's hope that Liberty Dollar soon can force the government to answer in federal court for today's action.
CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
* * *
Liberty Dollar Company Announcement
Thursday, November 15, 2007
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:
I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville, Indiana.
For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum, and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that were just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files and computers and froze our bank accounts.
We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the U.S. Constitution.
We should not be defrauded by the fake government money.
But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for minting the gold and silver Libertys have been taken.
All this has happened even though Edmond C. Moy, the director of the U.S. Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a U.S. senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal.
But the FBI and Secret Service took all the paper currency too.
The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed -- so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people's hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.
I regret that if you are due an order, it may be some time until it will be filled, if ever. It now all depends on our actions.
Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class-action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money.
Please don't let this happen.
Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials saying the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal -- to return America to a value-based currency.
Please forward this important alert so everyone who possesses or uses the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.
Please go here to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back:
http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php
Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and its dollar sinks to a new low.
Bernard von NotHaus, Monetary Architect
Liberty Dollar
Evansville, Indiana
* * *
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7639148 - 11/15/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd like to hear the reason the money was seized before I go donating money.
I doubt it was seized because the government just didnt like them.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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BrAiN
Art Fag
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7639176 - 11/15/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Was that Paul's PERSONAL money or was it part of his campaign fund?
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 afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7639235 - 11/15/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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is there something illegal about people creating their own currency?
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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: BrAiN]
#7639247 - 11/15/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its not either.
They were just making gold coins with Ron Paul's picture on them.
Besides admiring him, they weren't in any kind of connection.
Apparently the government is mad that they are printing money and declaring it legal tender.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7639371 - 11/15/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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> is there something illegal about people creating their own currency?
Yes.
18 USC Sec. 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
AMENDMENTS:
1994 - Pub. L. 103-322, which directed the amendment of this section by substituting "fined under this title" for "fined not more than $2,000", was executed by making the substitution for "fined not more than $3,000", to reflect the probable intent of Congress.
US Constitution Article I, section 8, clause 5
The Congress shall have Power To ... coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Seuss]
#7646549 - 11/17/07 01:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not entirely clear what's going on here. WERE they creating their own currency?
I'm not very familiar with the company but I thought what they did was take your money and give you credits for silver, gold, platinum etc which they held in a vault, and you could then exchange those credits with others in lieu of currency
to me, that's not currency, that's... exchange of goods. barter.
if that's currency, then I probably should be taken away too.
If it's simply because they minted coins -- is THAT currency? I wouldn't imagine their coinage would have any denomination on it -- of course I've not seen it, but I would assume the only value markings on the coin would be weight (thus cutting it from being tied to any currency and instead letting its value fluctate with the metals market.. or at least fluctuate in respect to other currencies. or both. i'm not sure how you look at that sort of thing from an outside perspective, i'm no economist)
Er, yes. So if my guess is right... is selling a coin marked "1 troy ounce 24k gold" actually minting and distributing currency? O_o
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Mushmonkey]
#7646561 - 11/17/07 01:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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who knows...
the wording on that law is impercise. What is current money?
Looked at some more stuff... apparently sec 486 was a reconstruction-era law, which may explain the weird wording.
Anyways it seems somewhat clear that the "current money" can only mean an imitation of government coinage. Given that these folks never claimed their products to have any legitimacy nor value beyond that of the metal contained within it... seems weird.
Also there are several websites which claim individuals in the treasury have long stated these were legal products.
What do ya'll think?
Edited by johnm214 (11/17/07 02:04 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: johnm214]
#7646607 - 11/17/07 02:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Anyways it seems somewhat clear that the "current money" can only mean an imitation of government coinage.
Keep reading... ten or so words later...
"for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design"
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Just another spore in the wind.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Seuss]
#7646623 - 11/17/07 03:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah but it that's just a subset of the current money clause.
current money irregardless of whether
a) resembling US or foreign coin
b) original
So it has to be intended to be used as current money. Given this is a reconstruction era bill , so I've read, I would think it was more likely to prevent the south from printing their own currency. Not that I think statutes should be interpreted on their history necessarily, just saying.
Based on the disclaimers that the coins were not government issue and were not backed by anything other than their contents, I don't see how they could be intended to be current money.
Unless someone interprets these phrases differently
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BrAiN
Art Fag
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Seuss]
#7646896 - 11/17/07 07:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> Anyways it seems somewhat clear that the "current money" can only mean an imitation of government coinage.
Keep reading... ten or so words later...
"for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design"
Well the parker brothers should be tried and hanged for violating that law big time.
There must be at least 5 trillion dollars in monopoly money out in circulation competing with the American dollar. I mean sheesh... think of all the hotels that will buy,
Know what I'm sayin?
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: BrAiN]
#7647450 - 11/17/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said:
Quote:
Seuss said:
> Anyways it seems somewhat clear that the "current money" can only mean an imitation of government coinage.
Keep reading... ten or so words later...
"for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design"
Well the parker brothers should be tried and hanged for violating that law big time.
There must be at least 5 trillion dollars in monopoly money out in circulation competing with the American dollar. I mean sheesh... think of all the hotels that will buy,
Know what I'm sayin?
Hasbro have never published money with Ron Paul's likeness on it.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Visionary Tools]
#7647657 - 11/17/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
I think I'm correct in that the money would have to be intended to be used in transactions. Here's a supreme court opinion on current money from some other website
Undoubtedly it is the law that, to be negotiable, a bill,
promissory note or check must be payable in money, or whatever is
current as such by the law of the country where the instrument is
drawn or payable. There are numerous cases where a designation of the
payment of such instruments in notes of particular banks or
associations, or in paper not current as money, has been held to
destroy their negotiability. [cit.] But within a few years, commencing
with the first issue in this country of notes declared to have the
quality of legal tender, it has been a common practice of drawers of
bills of exchange or checks, or makers of promissory notes, to
indicate whether the same are to be paid in gold or silver, or in such
notes; and the term 'current funds' has been used to designate any of
these, all being current and declared, by positive enactment, to be
legal tender. It was intended to cover whatever was receivable and
current by law as money, whether in the form of notes or coin.
Bull v. Bank of Kasson, 123 U.S. 105, 112 (1887).
Edit:
Attached is the seizure warrant from the raid. There was a sepperate search warrant issued.
As basis for the seizure they claim money laundering and mail fraud. I've heard it said that mail fraud is an incredibly losely defined term, able to be used in just about any case.
Edited by johnm214 (11/17/07 02:26 PM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
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Loc: Building 7
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything *DELETED* [Re: Seuss]
#7650426 - 11/18/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: fr
Edited by LunarEclipse (11/18/07 10:19 AM)
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SoY
I am the LizardKing
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: LunarEclipse]
#7652730 - 11/18/07 09:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
What better way to derail a campaign than eliminating some of its funding and having the FBI do it in a raid?
I thought that the coins were only in his likeness and not actually his campaign money.....
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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: Seuss]
#7653926 - 11/19/07 09:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What about casinos?
Seems like there is allot of currency floating around out there.
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: afoaf]
#7654495 - 11/19/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you think you can get in trouble for speaking against the war in Iraq, be sure that you can get in just as much, if not more, for speaking against the fed reserve.
Look what they did to saussy.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Feds raid Liberty Dollar and seize and freeze everything [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7654626 - 11/19/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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