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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking
#7638407 - 11/15/07 05:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking Written by Tom Whipple Thursday, 15 November 2007
You have to be quiet… and listen very carefully, for our government is trying to tell us something. If the news were good, of course, the White House would announce it at the daily press conference. If the news were very good, the President himself might come out into the rose garden and tell us the news himself.
But this news is bad, perhaps very bad, so the government relies on a third tier civil servant to break the bad news gradually so as not get the people too upset or cause a run on anything—banks, mutual funds, gas stations, or grocery stores. The bad news of course is something that many of us have been aware of for many months; this is likely to be a very tough winter for energy prices.
On Monday, Guy Caruso, head of the U.S. government's Energy Information Administration broke the bad news; although he never mentioned the dreaded words “peak oil,” the situation he describes is coming awfully close. The first announcement was that according to EIA models, gasoline prices are due to go up another 20 cents a gallon in the next few weeks. Considering that the AAA had just announced that the average U.S. price was now $3.10, having gone up by 30 cents in the last few weeks, this piece of news made headlines from coast to coast.
To see gasoline at new highs around $3.25 in December (and on the order of $3.75 on the West Coast) suggests that unless there are major changes such as a sharp and sudden decline in economic activity or OPEC discovers a spare million or two barrels a day, then we are all likely to be seeing $4 a gallon and higher next spring.
In recent weeks, there has been much commentary to the effect that the U.S. economy is so strong that it can shrug off $100 oil. Analysts note that gasoline is still a smaller part of the average family’s budget than it was 30 years ago and America does so little manufacturing these days that fuel is not a major part of production costs. Nonetheless, doubts are starting to pop up here and there. They note that this time high gasoline prices did not come from a political problem but are the result of a gradual narrowing of supply and demand which is unlikely to go away until there is a considerable cut in demand.
Caruso’s real message was not the headline grabbing 20 cents gallon, but that the EIA is coming to believe there has been a major change in the oil markets. In the Administrator’s words, “We think we're in a different era with relatively higher real oil prices going out through 2030. Rising demand coupled with ‘insufficient’ investment, lack of access to resource bases in the U.S. and elsewhere, and a ‘dramatic rise in the cost of doing business' are boosting prices.” Caruso added that he expects crude oil prices to remain high through the first three months of 2008, and warned that supplies coming onto the market after that will be more costly.
In a swipe at a new Saudi mantra, echoed by many on Wall Street and in the media, that speculators, traders, and hedge funds are responsible for high prices, Caruso said that while speculators may have helped push the price rise, their impact "is really a symptom of market fundamentals" because demand for oil remains high.
Over in Paris, the OECD’s International Energy Agency monthly report says that "There are strong indications that high prices are depressing demand," and cut its forecasts for demand during the remainder of 2007 and for 2008 by a small amount.
The IEA ominously reports that the OECD still continues to draw down stockpiles by nearly 30 million barrels in September and 21 million in October. Japanese crude stocks are at close to the lowest level in 20 years. Although OECD stockpiles are still close to average, the trends are not good. Since summer, the world has been using more oil than it has been producing, a situation that can not go on much longer without devastating consequences.
OPEC production remains the key to how quickly the troubles come. World production has been on a plateau for two years now and few knowledgeable observers expect that it will ever get more than a couple of million barrels a day beyond current production levels before settling into the long decline that will signal the end of the oil age.
Currently OPEC is on the books to increase production by an 500,000 barrels a day starting on November 1 and there are early indications that production did in fact increase a bit last month. Given the secrecy surrounding production numbers in many OPEC countries, it usually takes a couple of months to sort out what has actually happened.
In the meantime, all indications are that unless we have a major demand-killing economic setback in the next few months, the 500,000 barrels a day increase will not be enough to prevent higher prices so a major effort is underway to convince the Saudis to increase production still further. There are many who doubt that the Saudis really have much spare capacity left, especially in marketable grades of light oils. This may be the reason they continue to rebuff requests for higher production with an emphatic “not at this time.”
The upshot of all this should be clear in the next three to six months. Either OPEC can produce another 500,000 barrels a day or more on a sustainable basis, or they can’t. Either the world economy will continue to grow merrily along at the IMF projected 4 percent growth rate or economic difficulties, perhaps lengthy ones, will set in.
There is clearly some kind of major turning point in the industrial age just ahead and this may be what our government is trying to tell us --- or at least should be.
http://www.fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2089&Itemid=35
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7638550 - 11/15/07 07:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Since when has the government been truthful to you?
The only thing this administration is good at is causing fear.
Let the fear of high gas prices drive your actions as an american.
There is no energy shortage.
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Minstrel]
#7638618 - 11/15/07 08:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Petrol costs $7.93 per gallon in the UK! $5.31 of which is tax! The tax is flat which means oil prices have less of an effect on prices at the pump. I spend an average of nearly $400 per month on petrol!
Quote:
The upshot of all this should be clear in the next three to six months. Either OPEC can produce another 500,000 barrels a day or more on a sustainable basis, or they can’t. Either the world economy will continue to grow merrily along at the IMF projected 4 percent growth rate or economic difficulties, perhaps lengthy ones, will set in.
Draining all the finite oil reserves of the planet can never be sustainable! To me it seems a really easy choice for the OPEC countries. Sell more of the finite oil they have now at a high price or sell it later at a higher price. Now if I was in that position the only way I would sell it now was if I was broke or someone had a gun at my head!!
I have never quite understood the continual need for economic growth. Is it to keep up with population? Cause it seems much better just to stay at the same or lower rate.
If economic difficulties mean we slow down consumption of the planets resources then bring it on! We should stop being so greedy with what we use. It might be a hard change but it is one that is gonna have to be done some time or another.
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin



Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7638668 - 11/15/07 09:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good. Down with fossil fuels. I hope and pray the entire industry collapses.
And yes, I do know what worldwide catastrophic consequences would result from such implications. It wouldn't be the end of the world though. Just the beginning of a much better one.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Minstrel]
#7638740 - 11/15/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let the fear of high gas prices drive your actions as an american.
*Canadian 
There is no energy shortage.
Such a simplistic view of things 
But as for oil...just because there is no shortage where you are, doesn't mean there is no shortage! There are shortages of oil products (gasoline & diesel), they just aren't happening in the first world. As the price of oil goes up, it's the poorest people (and countries) that cannot afford it first. That in turn leaves more oil for us in the first world - at the new price, of course.
Look to Nigeria, China, Malaysia, or even North Dakota (specifically diesel fuel around harvest time this year).
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Minstrel]
#7638871 - 11/15/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is no energy shortage.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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robbyberto
Water Boy


Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 15,499
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: zorbman]
#7638902 - 11/15/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well its true but it doesn't apply to fossil fuels. We just aren't tapping into the energy sources we need to which include solar, geothermal, nuclear, wind etc. We should start to see a renewed interest in alternate fuel sources for personal transportation if the price of oil continues to rise. Hopefully this transition to a better fuel source will have a fire lit under it.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: robbyberto]
#7638917 - 11/15/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hopefully this transition to a better fuel source will have a fire lit under it.
Hopefully it isn't flammable.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7638936 - 11/15/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I was hoping the prices would rise more gradually so we would have more time to make the switch to biofuels(which in part will mean being able to create cellulosic ethanol). Oh well. Guess we'd better get on the ball soon. Maybe car manufacturers will start coming out with more hybrid models.
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robbyberto
Water Boy


Registered: 05/11/06
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: zorbman]
#7638941 - 11/15/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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That would be a plus.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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Leanin
Student of theIron Game


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2,231
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: robbyberto]
#7638952 - 11/15/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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fuck em all
they are just taking advantage of the RELIANCE ON OIL. governments wont try to lower it cuz they want their cut too.
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Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7638964 - 11/15/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Canada has huge deposits of oil.
Oil scares in the states, though are commonplace, and deliberate, because they import most of theirs.
They don't yet realize it's because of their shitty dollar that they are gonna be paying more.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7638966 - 11/15/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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too bad they already killed the electric car.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7639642 - 11/15/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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When I was very young there was a so-called gas/energy shortage. A couple of other "oldsters" here might remember. THis was in the 70's.
The gas prices were about what they are now. It was supposedly so bad they were rationing. Depending on your birthdate or registration or some crazy shit like that you could buy gas on this day or that day.
Then miraculously "new oil reserves" were found and the prices dropped (eventually) back down to less than a dollar a gallon. I find the similarities disturbing.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: mushbaby]
#7639648 - 11/15/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It was my understanding that that oil shortage was caused by an embargo by OPEC. It had nothing to do with new oil reserves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
Even with new oil reserves like ANWR, I've heard it estimated that we would need to discover another Saudi Arabia every 10 years to keep up with consumption.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7639684 - 11/15/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It could be, I haven't done my research.
I lived in So Cal at the time. My mother and grandmother were driving in the desert (past El Centro) and on in Western Arizona for their job. I absolutely swear that they told me more than once when I was growing up that they saw oil trucks dumping oil out in the desert.
They aren't ones to tell wild stories. They did stop and talk to a truck driver. He told them that due to the rationing there was no demand and even though he thought it was a waste he was just doing his job. Call me crazy if you must but these stories have always made me feel it's more manipulation than anything.
I am all for the alternative fuels. But think it has to stay somewhat diversified. If say everyone goes to a biofuel like corn what would happen to energy prices after a bad drought or flood?
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beneath
One Way Street


Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 1,239
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Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7639687 - 11/15/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i hope we run out of oil as soon as possible.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: beneath]
#7639696 - 11/15/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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We're only halfway there
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: mushbaby]
#7639711 - 11/15/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: If say everyone goes to a biofuel like corn what would happen to energy prices after a bad drought or flood?
That's why corn is not the best biofuel crop. There have been recent advances in making cellulosic ethanol, which would allow us to use agricultural waste as well as common prairie grasses such as switchgrass, which grows naturally with no fertilizer or pesticides needed.
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7639739 - 11/15/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Shaggydogman said, "I have never quite understood the continual need for economic growth. Is it to keep up with population? Cause it seems much better just to stay at the same or lower rate."
I think the biggest reason there is a constant increase in demand is that there are several nations experiencing industrial booms. China's economy, for one, has been growing rapidly and competes with us for the same oil reserves.
I'm not worried about it. The biggest impact anyone of us will feel is higher prices. Why not off-set the higher prices by investing in oil.
I think businesses that have a stake in alternate fuels should have investments in petroleum also.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7639757 - 11/15/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You know, I can't help but think of all this in a wider context. It seems like almost everything follows a bell curve in nature, and human civilization is no different.
If oil production has peaked (as I think) or will peak shortly, will industrial civilization go with it? When population peaks, what next? What next...
I started a journal (which I didn't keep) a few years back, and I titled it "The View from the Peak". If this is the "greatest" our society will ever be, I think we should spend our time enjoying that fact. Because it is a peak, and we'll all follow the bell curve down.
The other side. What will it be like? I imagine a world quite the opposite of this one. Instead of an ever increasing crawl, technology will constantly be lost, a bit at a time. Life will grow simpler, not more complex. There will always be less of us, too. Have to remember that. Whatever the cause...there wont be as many of us in the future.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7639765 - 11/15/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Society has "peaked" before. Ever heard of the Roman Empire?
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7639777 - 11/15/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And what did that "peak" entail? 
I never said there couldn't be more peaks, only that we had reached one.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7639793 - 11/15/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Perhaps it is the cumulative peaking of innumerable smaller peaks which defines a society's collapse.
If any one thing were to peak, it's no big deal. Things are always peaking, all the time.
Add up a bunch of those small peaks, and you get...?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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sucklesworth
Lick me where Ipee
Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 54,259
Loc: If I was up yer ass you'd...
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7639794 - 11/15/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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peaks look like boobs
valleys look like upside down boobs
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7639795 - 11/15/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, I thiink we should all do our part and make sure that our offspring are the ones that make the back slope of the bell. I'm gonna have more kids than Osama.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7640007 - 11/15/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
If this is the "greatest" our society will ever be, I think we should spend our time enjoying that fact.
Technology-wise we are at a high point yet many people live empty lives unconnected to themselves and the world around them. There is a soul-deadening quality to modern life that will not be missed.
Mankind has always fought over resources- I expect no different this time. I think we will still retain some of our technology and the population will be reduced significantly before the smoke clears and a new, simpler world begins to emerge.
It will be hell on earth in the meantime and it's already beginning.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Nephlyte
Misfortunate One


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,025
Loc: South Texas
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7640123 - 11/15/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
If oil production has peaked (as I think) or will peak shortly, will industrial civilization go with it? When population peaks, what next? What next...
I don't see our technological civilization going with the end of oil. We focus a great deal on oil disappearing, mainly because that happens to be the fuel we all drive around on right now. When oil goes away, it won't be a great thing, but it won't be the end to anything.
Remember that electricity is the fuel of our technological civilization. All my gadgets run on it, factories run on it, tech companies run on it, ect. And coal is what generates most of the energy in America. Sad but true. Much more damaging, and far less paid attention to. And coal is going nowhere. We have shittons of it. We have so much in the ground that is untouched. This doesn't solve any problem, since coal gives out a lot more greenhouse gas than oil derivatives.
Also electricity can be generated in any number of far flung methods. I get my power from hydroelectric and wind here in texas.
As oil gets far too expensive to just burn, we'll switch to other means to power our cars. Ethanol and biodiesel are a good examples. Propane is another example. Also the electric car will take off again. You can already find electric car dealerships in many cities and they don't look as stupid as they used to, which is good.
Consumers will always find a way to get what they want. And americans want to drive and they want to keep their technological lives going.
-------------------- "To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana
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DirtMcgirt
in a pinch



Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Nephlyte]
#7640490 - 11/15/07 04:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ethanol/biofuel is not the answer. It is not energy efficient ala it uses more energy to produce than it provides when you take into account everything that goes into growing and producing it.
http://grist.org/news/maindish/2006/12/04/montenegro/
They may develop it in a way that will net more energy than it requires, but it will surely be at the expense of our enviornment and the amount of time we spend driving
-------------------- "And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: DirtMcgirt]
#7640542 - 11/15/07 04:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DirtMcgirt said: Ethanol/biofuel is not the answer. It is not energy efficient ala it uses more energy to produce than it provides when you take into account everything that goes into growing and producing it.
That's debatable. People have calculated this many different ways, and some have found it efficient while others have not. From what I've read, corn ethanol has a marginally higher output than input. Sugar cane actually does much better, but even that is not nearly as good as cellulosic ethanol, for which great leaps in technology are already being made. Within a couple years(hopefully we have that long), cellulosic ethanol can be a practical solution. I am convinced that cellulosic ethanol, along with biodiesel made from used cooking oil and grease, are the way of the future.
What we need to focus on for now, however, is making cars more fuel-efficient. Amory Lovins, head of the Rocky Mountain Institute, has come up with a car design idea called the hypercar, combining hybrid technology with ultra-lightweight composite building materials and low-drag design to more than triple the gas mileage of cars.
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DirtMcgirt
in a pinch



Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7641566 - 11/15/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I also worry about land use with this solution too and how it will effect agriculture and food prices. The amount of crops needed to sustain our energy demands at current levels is pretty significant as I understand it.
Quote:
What we need to focus on for now, however, is making cars more fuel-efficient. Amory Lovins, head of the Rocky Mountain Institute, has come up with a car design idea called the hypercar, combining hybrid technology with ultra-lightweight composite building materials and low-drag design to more than triple the gas mileage of cars.
I agree man. Whatever the outcome/solution reducing our consumption is the central issue.
-------------------- "And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Cowgold]
#7643248 - 11/16/07 08:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said: Shaggydogman said, "I have never quite understood the continual need for economic growth. Is it to keep up with population? Cause it seems much better just to stay at the same or lower rate."
I think the biggest reason there is a constant increase in demand is that there are several nations experiencing industrial booms. China's economy, for one, has been growing rapidly and competes with us for the same oil reserves.
I'm not worried about it. The biggest impact anyone of us will feel is higher prices. Why not off-set the higher prices by investing in oil.
I think businesses that have a stake in alternate fuels should have investments in petroleum also.
Seems a bit like a growth race to me, like the arms race. Only the richest nations will be able to afford the resources that are left and they know it! Like only the best equipped with Nuclear weapons were gonna survive in the third world war.
So the growth race is on. Use up lots of resources producing stuff to make sure your nation is rich enough to afford stuff when there isn't much stuff left cause you used it all up making stuff to ensure you could afford stuff when there isn't much stuff left cause you used it all up making stuff to ensure you could afford stuff when there isn't much stuff left! It's madness!!! Seems like an accelerating, or should I say growing, downward spiral to me.
On another note...Biofuels I really don't think they are a good idea. I think that path leads to people in poorer parts of the world going hungry whilst the richer nations drive cars! The price of bread has gone up in the UK due to more land in the US being used to grow biofuel crops.
Edit: I agree, reducing consuption is definately the way.
I do think our inventiveness will save us. What is it they say about necessity...
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
Edited by shaggydogman (11/16/07 08:11 AM)
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Cowgold
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: shaggydogman]
#7643284 - 11/16/07 08:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Another solution to our declining resources and over population is to just kill 90% of the population. I believe the best place to start is with them damned blackfaces. After we're left with only 600,000 million of the finest humanity has to offer, we initiate strict birthing laws. Only little kids with funny retardation will be allowed to live, but for the most part no special people. We can keep a few midgets for the circus and porno. Fortunately for these special few, I believe that humor is an important part of a utopia.
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Noviseer
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Shroomism]
#7643334 - 11/16/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: Good. Down with fossil fuels. I hope and pray the entire industry collapses.
And yes, I do know what worldwide catastrophic consequences would result from such implications. It wouldn't be the end of the world though. Just the beginning of a much better one.
How would the world be better after a collapse of all the industries associated with fossil fuels?
-------------------- _______________________________________________________________ namaste said: no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped _________________________________________________________________
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shaggydogman
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Cowgold]
#7643401 - 11/16/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said: Another solution to our declining resources and over population is to just kill 90% of the population. I believe the best place to start is with them damned blackfaces. After we're left with only 600,000 million of the finest humanity has to offer, we initiate strict birthing laws. Only little kids with funny retardation will be allowed to live, but for the most part no special people. We can keep a few midgets for the circus and porno. Fortunately for these special few, I believe that humor is an important part of a utopia.
I think Eugenics has 'A Shameful History' but I guess you're a believer... Personally I never really liked Huxleys vision of 'A Brave New World'.
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
Edited by shaggydogman (11/16/07 09:47 AM)
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Nephlyte
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: shaggydogman]
#7643420 - 11/16/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
shaggydogman said:
On another note...Biofuels I really don't think they are a good idea. I think that path leads to people in poorer parts of the world going hungry whilst the richer nations drive cars! The price of bread has gone up in the UK due to more land in the US being used to grow biofuel crops.
Here is where i have no sympathy, because when we feed the world's poorest people, they reward us with rapid population growth. This is not a good system.
Feeding the poor has actually lead to more hunger in the long term. Every time a poor country gets better seeds, equipment, and resources, they also strain local resources. They strain their water supplies to a point that there is a serious water crisis growing in the 3rd world. They also press upon very fragile ecosystems, this is especially true across africa. When the population expands in africa so does the desert. Because they don't know how to farm in a sustainable fashion, they farm land until it has no capacity to grow anything edible. Then they put cattle to graze on it until nothing grows at all.
So i would much rather use up some biofuels or not grow the crops than grow the crop and send it to the hungry. I hate world hunger, but i hate overpopulation more.
-------------------- "To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana
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Cowgold
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: shaggydogman]
#7643467 - 11/16/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Then you must've liked Swift's vision of 'A Modest Proposal'?
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shaggydogman
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Cowgold]
#7643502 - 11/16/07 09:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said: Then you must've liked Swift's vision of 'A Modest Proposal'?
Hey, I love kids!!!!!! Couldn't eat a whole one
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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Silversoul
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Nephlyte]
#7643751 - 11/16/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nephlyte said:
Quote:
shaggydogman said:
On another note...Biofuels I really don't think they are a good idea. I think that path leads to people in poorer parts of the world going hungry whilst the richer nations drive cars! The price of bread has gone up in the UK due to more land in the US being used to grow biofuel crops.
Here is where i have no sympathy, because when we feed the world's poorest people, they reward us with rapid population growth. This is not a good system.
Feeding the poor has actually lead to more hunger in the long term. Every time a poor country gets better seeds, equipment, and resources, they also strain local resources. They strain their water supplies to a point that there is a serious water crisis growing in the 3rd world. They also press upon very fragile ecosystems, this is especially true across africa. When the population expands in africa so does the desert. Because they don't know how to farm in a sustainable fashion, they farm land until it has no capacity to grow anything edible. Then they put cattle to graze on it until nothing grows at all.
So i would much rather use up some biofuels or not grow the crops than grow the crop and send it to the hungry. I hate world hunger, but i hate overpopulation more.
Ok, two things here to address:
First of all, about biofuels. As I've said earlier in this thread, we don't need to make biofuels from food crops. Just about any plant material, including wood chips, lawn clippings, and prairie grasses can be used to make cellulosic ethanol.
Now, as for third world hunger. I agree that we shouldn't be sending all this food over there, but for different reasons. It actually hurts the local farmers by driving prices down(especially considering how much we subsidize our crops here in the US). As for those farmers using unsustainable farming methods and encroaching upon the environment, that has a lot to do with land speculation. Large corporations and landowners own most of the good farmland in Brazil(and leave much of it unused), so poor farmers have to cut down the rainforest in order to have farmland to sustain themselves. The solution here is an efficient form of land reform, as well as removal of agricultural subsidies in our own country. Also, populations tend to increase most during the transition from pre-industrial to post-industrial economy. The population curve tends to even out once a country is fully industrialized and the economy has stabilized. The above-mentioned land reform would also help with that.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7644537 - 11/16/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's why corn is not the best biofuel crop. There have been recent advances in making cellulosic ethanol, which would allow us to use agricultural waste as well as common prairie grasses such as switchgrass, which grows naturally with no fertilizer or pesticides needed.
Hemps the word. Has lots of cellulose. Has many purposes. Is very lucrative. Shown to work.
Quote:
Biodiesel Basics
* Is created from soybean, hemp or other vegetable oil or from used cooking oil (there are more than 4 billion gallons of waste cooking oil produced annually in the U.S.; enough to replace 10% of fuel expenditures (Source: Greasecar.com)). It can be made from almost any plant-derived oil. * Creating biodiesel from plants that are not grown organically could potentially offset the environmental benefits of this new fuel source due to pollution from pesticides/herbicides/insecticides, soil loss, habitat destruction, and/or damage caused by growing genetically-engineered plants. * Reduces carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide (one of the main causes of acid rain), hydrocarbons, benzene, and particulate matter. * Increases nitrogen oxide levels (unless biodiesel is made from used cooking oil). The biodiesel industry is looking for additives that would reduce nitrogen oxide levels. * Smells like french fries or popcorn when burned. * Can safely be blended with petroleum diesel. * Can be used in any diesel engine with little or no modification to the engine or the fuel system. On pre-1986 vehicles, it may be necessary to replace any rubber fuel hoses that are not made of modern synthetic materials. Before first time use, it is recommended (but not always necessary - depends on age of car) that the fuel tank be flushed to eliminate sediment and scum. The fuel filter should also be changed during initial use (frequency depends on age of car). * Results in a slight drop in fuel economy. * Currently costs up to $3.00 a gallon retail in the U.S. * Can extend the life of diesel engines. * Is biodegradable. * Has been used extensively for over 20 years in Europe. France is the largest user in the world. * Is one of the fastest growing alternative fuels in the U.S. * Has been extensively tested by government agencies, university researchers and private industry in the United States, Canada and Europe. * Would create new jobs and increased income for farmers. * Provides a domestic, renewable energy supply. * Has been approved by the U.S. EPA as an alternative fuel. * Is safer to use than petroleum diesel - it has a flash point of 300 F (vs. 125 F for diesel). * Can also be used as a fuel lubricity additive in diesel fuel. * Is being actively marketed by at least 13 U.S. companies.
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HEMP FOR FUEL
Excerpted from "Energy Farming in America," by Lynn Osburn
BIOMASS CONVERSION to fuel has proven economically feasible, first in laboratory tests and by continuous operation of pilot plants in field tests since 1973. When the energy crop is growing it takes in C02 from the air, so when it is burned the C02 is released, creating a balanced system.
Biomass is the term used to describe all biologically produced matter. World production of biomass is estimated at 146 billion metric tons a year, mostly wild plant growth. Some farm crops and trees can produce up to 20 metric tons per acre of biomass a year.
Types of algae and grasses may produce 50 metric tons per year. This biomass has a heating value of 5000-8000 BTU/lb, with virtually no ash or sulfur produced during combustion. About 6% of contiguous United States land area put into cultivation for biomass could supply all current demands for oil and gas.
The foundation upon which this will be achieved is the emerging concept of "energy farming," wherein farmers grow and harvest crops for biomass conversion to fuels.
PYROLYSIS IS THE TECHNIQUE of applying high heat to organic matter (ligno-cellulosic materials) in the absence of air or in reduced air. The process can produce charcoal, condensable organic liquids (pyrolytic fuel oil), non-condensable gasses, acetic acid, acetone, and methanol. The process can be adjusted to favor charcoal, pyrolytic oil, gas, or methanol production with a 95.5% fuel-to-feed efficiency.
Pyrolysis has been used since the dawn of civilization. Ancient Egyptians practiced wood distillation by collecting the tars and pyroligneous acid for use in their embalming industry.
Methanol-powered automobiles and reduced emissions from coal-fired power plants can be accomplished by biomass conversion to fuel utilizing pyrolysis technology, and at the same time save the American family farm while turning the American heartland into a prosperous source of clean energy production.
Pyrolysis has the advantage of using the same technology now used to process crude fossil fuel oil and coal. Coal and oil conversion is more efficient in terms of fuel-to-feed ratio, but biomass conversion by pyrolysis has many environmental and economic advantages over coal and oil.
Pyrolysis facilities will run three shifts a day. Some 68% of the energy of the raw biomass will be contained in the charcoal and fuel oils made at the facility. This charcoal has nearly the same heating value in BTU as coal, with virtually no sulfur.
Pyrolytic fuel oil has similar properties to no. 2 and no. 6 fuel oil. The charcoal can be transported economically by rail to all urban area power plants generating electricity. The fuel oil can be transported economically by trucking creating more jobs for Americans. When these plants use charcoal instead of coal, the problems of acid rain will begin to disappear.
When this energy system is on line producing a steady supply of fuel for electrical power plants, it will be more feasible to build the complex gasifying systems to produce methanol from the cubed biomass, or make synthetic gasoline from the methanol by the addition of the Mobil Co. process equipment to the gasifier.
FARMERS MUST BE ALLOWED TO GROW an energy crop capable of producing 10 tons per acre in 90-120 days. This crop must be woody in nature and high in lignocellulose. It must be able to grow in all climactic zones in America.
And it should not compete with food crops for the most productive land, but be grown in rotation with food crops or on marginal land where food crop production isn't profitable.
When farmers can make a profit growing energy, it will not take long to get 6% of continental American land mass into cultivation of biomass fuel--enough to replace our economy's dependence on fossil fuels. We will no longer be increasing the C02 burden in the atmosphere. The threat of global greenhouse warming and adverse climactic change will diminish. To keep costs down, pyrolysis reactors need to be located within a 50 mile radius of the energy farms. This necessity will bring life back to our small towns by providing jobs locally.
HEMP IS THE NUMBER ONE biomass producer on planet earth: 10 tons per acre in approximately four months. It is a woody plant containing 77% cellulose. Wood produces 60% cellulose. This energy crop can be harvested with equipment readily available. It can be "cubed" by modifying hay cubing equipment. This method condenses the bulk, reducing trucking costs from the field to the pyrolysis reactor. And the biomass cubes are ready for conversion with no further treatment.
Hemp is drought resistant, making it an ideal crop in the dry western regions of the country. Hemp is the only biomass resource capable of making America energy independent. And our government outlawed it in 1938.
Remember, in 10 years, by the year 2000, America will have exhausted 80% of her petroleum reserves. Will we then go to war with the Arabs for the privilege of driving our cars; will we stripmine our land for coal, and poison our air so we can drive our autos an extra 100 years; will we raze our forests for our energy needs?
During World War II, our supply of hemp was cut off by the Japanese. The federal government responded to the emergency by suspending marijuana prohibition. Patriotic American farmers were encouraged to apply for a license to cultivate hemp and responded enthusiastically. Hundreds of thousands of acres of hemp were grown.
The argument against hemp production does not hold up to scrutiny: hemp grown for biomass makes very poor grade marijuana. The 20 to 40 million Americans who smoke marijuana would loath to smoke hemp grown for biomass, so a farmer's hemp biomass crop is worthless as marijuana.
It is time the government once again respond to our economic emergency as they did in WWII to permit our farmers to grow American hemp so this mighty nation can once again become energy independent and smog free.
Quote:
Methanol Basics What is Methanol? Methanol is the simplest alcohol, containing one carbon atom. It is a colorless, tasteless liquid with a very faint odor and is commonly known as "wood alcohol."
Methanol is one of a number of fuels that could substitute for gasoline or diesel fuel in passenger cars, light trucks, and heavy-duty trucks and buses. Why Consider Methanol? Methanol's physical and chemical characteristics result in several inherent advantages as an automotive fuel: LOW POLLUTION Emissions from methanol cars are low in reactive hydrocarbons (which form smog) and in toxic compounds. Methanol-fueled trucks and buses emit almost no particulate matter (which cause smoke and odor, and can also be carcinogenic), and much less nitrogen oxides than their diesel-fueled counterparts. FUEL SUPPLY OPTIONS Methanol can be manufactured from a variety of carbon-based feedstocks such as natural gas, coal, and biomass (e.g., Hemp). Use of methanol would diversify the country's fuel supply and reduce its dependence on imported petroleum. FIRE SAFETY Methanol is much less flammable than gasoline and results in less severe fires when it does ignite. HIGH PERFORMANCE Methanol is a high-octane fuel that offers excellent acceleration and vehicle power. ECONOMICALLY ATTRACTIVE With economies of scale, methanol could be produced, distributed, and sold to consumers at prices competitive with gasoline. Current Methanol Uses Because of its outstanding performance and fire safety characteristics, methanol is the only fuel used in Indianapolis-type race cars. Following a series of methanol vehicle development and demonstration programs throughout the 1980's, a limited number of methanol passenger cars and buses are now commercially available. There are approximately 14,000 methanol passenger cars in use, mostly in Federal and private fleets, and about 400 methanol buses in daily operation, mostly in California.
Methanol is used in a number of consumer products, including paint strippers, duplicator fluid, model airplane fuel, and dry gas. Most windshield washer fluids are 50 percent methanol. Is Methanol Poisonous? Yes. As with many other fuels, methanol can be highly toxic and should never be taken orally. A few teaspoons of methanol can cause blindness and a few tablespoons can be fatal, if the exposure is not treated.
It should be noted that the human body can metabolize and eliminate low concentrations of methanol with no ill effects. (Methanol is present in many cooked vegetables, and the artificial sweetener in diet soft drinks breaks down into methanol during digestion.) Methanol becomes poisonous only when it overwhelms the body's capacity to remove it. Toxic effects do not occur until several hours after exposure. Effective antidotes to methanol poisoning are readily available and can be administered during this interim period.
http://www.hemp4fuel.com/
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/hempfuel.htm
trendal:
Quote:
If oil production has peaked (as I think) or will peak shortly, will industrial civilization go with it? When population peaks, what next? What next...
I started a journal (which I didn't keep) a few years back, and I titled it "The View from the Peak". If this is the "greatest" our society will ever be, I think we should spend our time enjoying that fact. Because it is a peak, and we'll all follow the bell curve down.
The other side. What will it be like? I imagine a world quite the opposite of this one. Instead of an ever increasing crawl, technology will constantly be lost, a bit at a time. Life will grow simpler, not more complex. There will always be less of us, too. Have to remember that. Whatever the cause...there wont be as many of us in the future.
I feel this is a rather negative outlook. Just because fossil fuels go does not mean all fuels will go forever. We will have to learn to conserve our supplies and live at peace with nature, in an effort to not only keep it from deteriorating (as much as in our power) but to help it to flourish and for people to peacefully coexist. The peacefully existing part will not happen while the earth stands But there is hope, and every person can make their own enviroment a better place for everyone.
Life does not have to become simpler. We would still have fuel, we would still have technology, but it would (hopefully) be much more modest and constrained.
Technology is helpful in moderation and when in a good design and at peace with nature. But technology or lack of it does not make a civilization "advanced". It is not so much the knowledge you have, as what you do with that knowledge that makes a civilization advanced. Technology follows behind. That's how it should be.
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trendal
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Posts: 20,815
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7644562 - 11/16/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I feel this is a rather negative outlook. Just because fossil fuels go does not mean all fuels will go forever.
True, but I think that bio-fuels will not come anywhere close to being able to provide as much energy as oil has. It's a simple matter of time...bio-fuels are made from plant matter which has grown for one year, but oil is made from bio-matter that has collected for millions of years.
We've got millions of years on one side...and one single year on the other. That's a pretty big bias. That's also why bio-fuel will only ever provide us with the barest minimum of energy.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7644584 - 11/16/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And we can use the heat from the earth to power Pyrolysis!!
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7644597 - 11/16/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal:
True, but I think that bio-fuels will not come anywhere close to being able to provide as much energy as oil has. It's a simple matter of time...bio-fuels are made from plant matter which has grown for one year, but oil is made from bio-matter that has collected for millions of years.
Quote:
About 6% of contiguous United States land area put into cultivation for biomass could supply all current demands for oil and gas.
edit:
And guess what most of the farmland of America is used for? Animal farming. Cattle. Not only that, they contribute alot to emmisions into the atmosphere and pollution of water. Oh yes, guess what uses the most water ? If you said animals, you are correct.
Edited by jonathan_206 (11/16/07 02:59 PM)
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Cowgold
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7644618 - 11/16/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If anything the little time needed to produce bio-fuel is an advantage over fossil fuels.
The biggest advantage of fossil fuels is that it is the cheapest and most readily available fuel source.
And most biofuel crops already have a use in the world economic market. The use of ethanol as an additive in gasoline alone has caused a sharp increase in corn tortillas prices. A staple food for many poor families in Mexico. What would be the impact on any other current crop? Even if we used Hay, our cattle industry would feel an impact. Hemp is illegal.
There's simply not an economical solution currently. I really think we'll see $200 a barrel before there are any solutions.
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shaggydogman
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7644626 - 11/16/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
"First of all, about biofuels. As I've said earlier in this thread, we don't need to make biofuels from food crops. Just about any plant material, including wood chips, lawn clippings, and prairie grasses can be used to make cellulosic ethanol."
Sorry missed that. I agree it would be excellent if we could use source materials that didn't divert from food production although I am not aware of this happening. So far the only source material I have seen that doesn't use land that can produce food is jatropha. I would love to hear of more. I'm not sure that wood chips, lawn clippings, and prairie grasses would fill the growing political demand for biofuels. Farmers will choose to grow what they can get the best price for. There is heavy intervention in this market is the form of subsidies to grow biofuel crops (Biofuels: At What Cost? ).
Ideoloy of biofus from non food crops and land  Current biofuel path 
George Monbiot - If we want to save the planet, we need a five-year freeze on biofuels Jean Ziegler - UN independent rights expert calls for five-year freeze on biofuel production (from wikipedia)
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Silversoul
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7644634 - 11/16/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: It's a simple matter of time...bio-fuels are made from plant matter which has grown for one year, but oil is made from bio-matter that has collected for millions of years.
In addition to Jonathan's comments about the land area required for biofuels production(not counting all the agricultural waste that can be recycled into biofuel), it seems that your comment misses the point that we're not talking about ONE year, but EVERY year continually. It's called renewabe. It means we don't run out of it. What you are suggesting is the strength of oil is actually its weakness.
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shaggydogman
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
#7644703 - 11/16/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It just occured to me
- The world is overpopulated - Western govornments are activly persuing policies which divert land away from producing food for humans to producing fuel. - those who can afford to drive are richer than those who are in danger of starvation - 100,000 people die from hunger or its immediate consequences every day; and every five seconds, a child dies from hunger.
Now if I was into conspiracies......
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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AlteredAgain
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: shaggydogman]
#7644711 - 11/16/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"We're seeing an enormous increase in inequality in the United States and in the world. There's a massive reallocation of wealth from people who do productive work to people who simply have money. The figure that helps to underline just how extreme this inequality is becoming is the observation that 358 billionaires in the world have combined assets roughly equal to the combined annual income of the world's poorest 2.5 billion people (that's nearly 1/2 of the world's population), and that concentration is continuing... 90% of the value of shareholder equity in the United States is owned by the richest 10% of households. 47% is owned by the top 1% of households. The bottom 80% of households own 2%." David C. Korten
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zorbman
blarrr



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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
#7644853 - 11/16/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bio-fools won't even come close to making up the energy shortfall from peak oil. The numbers just don't add up and the technology isn't there.
This is pipe dream stuff.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7644954 - 11/16/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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another thing I would like to add. People are talking about using food crops for fuel, acting like that would somehow create a food shortage..
we don't even eat most of the grain and such from farmlands in America (and no doubt other countries). we give most of it to the animals.
take a look here:
http://www.veganvillage.co.uk/vegfam/famine.htm
http://www.veganvillage.co.uk/vegfam/famine.htm
The energy crisis, and how we live and eat all connected.
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Silversoul
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7644986 - 11/16/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Considering how much of our corn crops go towards making all that high fructose corn syrup that they put in our food and turn America into the nation of fatasses that it is, I wouldn't mind if they took that ingredient out of most food and instead used that corn for fuel.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7644997 - 11/16/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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How realistic is it that your average Joe Sixpack will become a vegetarian?
Do you think for one minute that people are going to just calmly give up the lifestyle they feel they are entitled to?
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (11/16/07 05:13 PM)
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: zorbman]
#7645039 - 11/16/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know, it's grim. But it's the truth. It's really the only way that's ever going to be efficient, that is to reduce animal consumption and live more within means.
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