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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644562 - 11/16/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I feel this is a rather negative outlook. Just because fossil fuels go does not mean all fuels will go forever.

True, but I think that bio-fuels will not come anywhere close to being able to provide as much energy as oil has. It's a simple matter of time...bio-fuels are made from plant matter which has grown for one year, but oil is made from bio-matter that has collected for millions of years.

We've got millions of years on one side...and one single year on the other. That's a pretty big bias. That's also why bio-fuel will only ever provide us with the barest minimum of energy.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644584 - 11/16/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And we can use the heat from the earth to power Pyrolysis!!

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
    #7644597 - 11/16/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


trendal:


True, but I think that bio-fuels will not come anywhere close to being able to provide as much energy as oil has. It's a simple matter of time...bio-fuels are made from plant matter which has grown for one year, but oil is made from bio-matter that has collected for millions of years.






Quote:

About 6% of contiguous United States land area put into cultivation for biomass could supply all current demands for oil and gas.





edit:

And guess what most of the farmland of America is used for? Animal farming. Cattle. Not only that, they contribute alot to emmisions into the atmosphere and pollution of water. Oh yes, guess what uses the most water ? If you said animals, you are correct.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/16/07 02:59 PM)

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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
    #7644618 - 11/16/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If anything the little time needed to produce bio-fuel is an advantage over fossil fuels.

The biggest advantage of fossil fuels is that it is the cheapest and most readily available fuel source.

And most biofuel crops already have a use in the world economic market. The use of ethanol as an additive in gasoline alone has caused a sharp increase in corn tortillas prices. A staple food for many poor families in Mexico. What would be the impact on any other current crop? Even if we used Hay, our cattle industry would feel an impact. Hemp is illegal.

There's simply not an economical solution currently. I really think we'll see $200 a barrel before there are any solutions.

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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
    #7644626 - 11/16/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

"First of all, about biofuels. As I've said earlier in this thread, we don't need to make biofuels from food crops. Just about any plant material, including wood chips, lawn clippings, and prairie grasses can be used to make cellulosic ethanol."




Sorry missed that. I agree it would be excellent if we could use source materials that didn't divert from food production although I am not aware of this happening. So far the only source material I have seen that doesn't use land that can produce food is jatropha. I would love to hear of more. I'm not sure that wood chips, lawn clippings, and prairie grasses would fill the growing political demand for biofuels. Farmers will choose to grow what they can get the best price for. There is heavy intervention in this market is the form of subsidies to grow biofuel crops (Biofuels: At What Cost? ).

Ideoloy of biofus from non food crops and land :thumbup:
Current biofuel path :thumbdown:

George Monbiot - If we want to save the planet, we need a five-year freeze on biofuels
Jean Ziegler - UN independent rights expert calls for five-year freeze on biofuel production
(from wikipedia)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
    #7644634 - 11/16/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
It's a simple matter of time...bio-fuels are made from plant matter which has grown for one year, but oil is made from bio-matter that has collected for millions of years.



In addition to Jonathan's comments about the land area required for biofuels production(not counting all the agricultural waste that can be recycled into biofuel), it seems that your comment misses the point that we're not talking about ONE year, but EVERY year continually. It's called renewabe. It means we don't run out of it. What you are suggesting is the strength of oil is actually its weakness.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: Silversoul]
    #7644703 - 11/16/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It just occured to me

- The world is overpopulated
- Western govornments are activly persuing policies which divert land away from producing food for humans to producing fuel.
- those who can afford to drive are richer than those who are in danger of starvation
- 100,000 people die from hunger or its immediate consequences every day; and every five seconds, a child dies from hunger.

Now if I was into conspiracies......


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Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.

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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: shaggydogman]
    #7644711 - 11/16/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"We're seeing an enormous increase in inequality in the United States and in the world. There's a massive reallocation of wealth from people who do productive work to people who simply have money. The figure that helps to underline just how extreme this inequality is becoming is the observation that 358 billionaires in the world have combined assets roughly equal to the combined annual income of the world's poorest 2.5 billion people (that's nearly 1/2 of the world's population), and that concentration is continuing... 90% of the value of shareholder equity in the United States is owned by the richest 10% of households. 47% is owned by the top 1% of households. The bottom 80% of households own 2%." David C. Korten


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: trendal]
    #7644853 - 11/16/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Bio-fools won't even come close to making up the energy shortfall from peak oil. The numbers just don't add up and the technology isn't there.

This is pipe dream stuff.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644954 - 11/16/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

another thing I would like to add. People are talking about using food crops for fuel, acting like that would somehow create a food shortage..

we don't even eat most of the grain and such from farmlands in America (and no doubt other countries). we give most of it to the animals.

take a look here:

http://www.veganvillage.co.uk/vegfam/famine.htm

http://www.veganvillage.co.uk/vegfam/famine.htm

The energy crisis, and how we live and eat all connected.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644986 - 11/16/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Considering how much of our corn crops go towards making all that high fructose corn syrup that they put in our food and turn America into the nation of fatasses that it is, I wouldn't mind if they took that ingredient out of most food and instead used that corn for fuel.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644997 - 11/16/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How realistic is it that your average Joe Sixpack will become a vegetarian?

Do you think for one minute that people are going to just calmly give up the lifestyle they feel they are entitled to?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (11/16/07 05:13 PM)

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Peak Oil Crisis: Our Government is Speaking [Re: zorbman]
    #7645039 - 11/16/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know, it's grim. But it's the truth. It's really the only way that's ever going to be efficient, that is to reduce animal consumption and live more within means.

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