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Pan Elven
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Registered: 05/24/07
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Help! Jars not fully collonised after 8 weeks..
#7633863 - 11/14/07 05:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hi, I really need some advice. This is my first grow attempt. Three of my 5 jars inoculated 8 weeks ago seem to have stopped colonising without fully completing.(The other two are way behind and may never get there) I think that the substrate at the bottom of the jars has dried out. I flipped them a few days ago but still no further progress. I have added some photos.
Do I birth and cut away the incomplete part with a sterilised spoon/Knife and then dunk ?
Or.. shall I leave the cakes in the jar and cover the sides with a cardboard tube and let them grow strait out of the jars as it's suggested in the "Psilocybin Mushroom growers Handbook" ?
Your feed back would be much appreiciated.
[image] [/image][image] [/image][image] [/image]
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abesh
Warrior SixDelta




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Re: Help! Jars not fully collonised after 8 weeks.. [Re: Pan Elven]
#7633881 - 11/14/07 05:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you have lids on, I would suggest taking off the foil. stupid question.. do you have holes in the lid for gas exchange?? Also in the last pic it looks like the lid is over the foil... is it? if so... I... have never seen it done this way. The foil is usually over the lid and mainly so that water does not leak into (or out of) the jars, thus messing up the moisture content.
once you have inoced you need to have some type of gas exchange.... usually open the holes (assuming you are doing the PF tec, and you have a layer of dry verm to keep the contam out).
hope that helps good luck
-------------------- If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams
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Pan Elven
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Re: Help! Jars not fully collonised after 8 weeks.. [Re: abesh]
#7633902 - 11/14/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hi Abesh, One of my jars has the lid over the foil and the other two are foil over lid. The one with lid over the foil was done this way as that is the way they did it in the "Psilocybin mushroom handbook". I thought i would try some each way to see if there was any differance.
You say "If you have lids on, I would suggest taking off the foil." What do you mean ? take of the foil and let them continue colonising ? Is this in order to create some gas exchange?
As for the one with lid on top I could make some holes and take of the foil..
Thanks for posting..
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ThePyschonaut52
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Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Help! Jars not fully collonised after 8 weeks.. [Re: Pan Elven]
#7633907 - 11/14/07 06:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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With the lid on, turn the jar upside down and smack it into your palm until the cake loosens and falls down a bit. Then leave it for a few days til the mycelium starts moving again. When it does start again, flip the jar back over and it should finish colonizing soon. Thats what I've done when growth stops and it works great.
-------------------- "In god we trust..." -I guess we're screwed.
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Pan Elven
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
#7633911 - 11/14/07 06:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks Psychonaut52, Like I said in my post, the bottom of the substrate has dried out. This happened when the temp in my propagator went up too high one day. I can see that the bottom inch has lost it's moisture. Do I need to worry about this?
That is the reason I was thinking of birthing and cutting out the uncolonized part...
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blood4blood
Calmer Than You Are


Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6,029
Loc: The Valley
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: Pan Elven]
#7633914 - 11/14/07 06:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i just cant believe that you still have foil, and a lid and foil on one! that is your whole problem right there. jars should fully colonize in 3 weeks max. not 2 months.
you have the dry verm layer on top right?
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ThePyschonaut52
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: Pan Elven]
#7633918 - 11/14/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just do what I said(sorry if that sounds forceful). No need to worry about moisture, as you'll be doing a dunk and roll anyway, right?
-------------------- "In god we trust..." -I guess we're screwed.
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Pan Elven
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
#7633928 - 11/14/07 06:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, I think that I am realizing my mistakes.
Yes I have a dry casing layer..
After I take the jars out of the pressure cooker and inoculate there is no need to have both the foil and the lids ?
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abesh
Warrior SixDelta




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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: Pan Elven]
#7634023 - 11/14/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pan Elven said:
After I take the jars out of the pressure cooker and inoculate there is no need to have both the foil and the lids ?
yes, I take the foil off. Do what Psychonaut said, that should get some air to the bottom which seems to have stalled... and the myc should finish colonization. good luck
-------------------- If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams
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mycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias



Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: abesh]
#7634094 - 11/14/07 08:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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From the looks of those images it appears like the mycelium has put up an isolation wall around that area of the substrate. Give us a close-up, as best as possible of what that actual line looks like between the mycelium and the uncolonized substrate. If it's locked off that portion of the substrate though, it's probably not going to try to recolonize it.
(educated guess, btw)
--------------------
Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude. I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected... - How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates - How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier - How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse ------------------------------------ figgusfiddus said: Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.
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c0_hush
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: mycocurious]
#7634164 - 11/14/07 09:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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What is everyone talking about gas exchange, taking off foils.. I've never heard this before, I thought while you are incubating the mycelium does NOT need light, gas exchange and you need the lid on to protect it from contams and keeping the mini ecosystem in the jar going and keeping in humidity.. Yes, there is a dry layer of verm on top but I never heard anyone suggest to take the lids off completely while the shit's in the incubator which would most likely dry it out even further... To me that's like asking for trouble, right there.
I need to see more replies from different ppl suggesting this before I even think about doing it..
Edited by c0_hush (11/14/07 09:24 AM)
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abesh
Warrior SixDelta




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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: c0_hush]
#7634268 - 11/14/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0_hush said: I never heard anyone suggest to take the lids off completely while the shit's in the incubator which would most likely dry it out even further...
Like you said, I don't think any one suggested to take the lids completely off (not in this thread at least). I did suggest to take the foil off... for gas exchange... which is totally different from FAE (Fresh Air Exchange) which is what is done in the fruiting chamber.
But while incubating there is a need for gas exchange.... which is why achieved by a hole and filter material like micro-pore tape, tyvek, poli-fill etc (in the case of grains) or the dry verm in the case of PF tec.
I am only on my third grow so I could be wrong, but this is what I understand so far.... If I am wrong, then please correct me.
Also
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: You have to remember that lots of new growers want to give advice to help, and I'm sure they have the best of intentions, but often they're DEAD WRONG on the advice they give, so always average out the answers you get until someone trusted comes along. There are some horrible answers above in this thread that are just flat out wrong.
Colonizing mycelium in jars REQUIRES gas exchange. Two layers of foil are no different than one layer of foil. However, the foil is for the purpose of protecting the openings in the LID during sterilization from the water that drips down off the top of the kettle or pressure cooker. With pf type cakes, there should be 4 holes in the lid large enough for a needle to get through. These are your inoculation holes, and serve later as your GAS exchange holes. People who try to colonize jars without gas exchange end up with bad cases of wet spot bacteria and other contaminants, or at best they end up with stalled jars.
You want to put 1/2"(1cm) of dry vermiculite in the top of your jars, and then put the lid with four small holes drilled around the edges. You then screw the ring on, and THEN cover with foil. The use of micro pore tape over the inoculation holes is optional. After sterilization, REMOVE the foil and inoculate through the holes, which from that time on are your gas exchange holes. Don't block them off. RR
Also this may be help full
-------------------- If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams
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c0_hush
Stranger



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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: abesh]
#7634331 - 11/14/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good stuff abesh! The thread in that link was kinda entertaining, it got out of control quite fast but it was kinda helpful, I still have a lingering question tho.. During incubation we want high levels of CO2.. That was my initial impression as well and I thought this was achieved by screwing on the lid after inoculation and incubate. Wouldn't any open holes release the CO2 that's caused by mycelium eating the verm? I'm either reading it wrong or ppl are giving out conflicting info.
RR says don't block the holes and that using micro pore tape is optional so that means there are exposed holes, then dry verm, then the myc growing underneath.. I feel totally out of it today..
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c0_hush
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: c0_hush]
#7634355 - 11/14/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok so I just went thru 5 more threads and found this elegant explanation:
"The inoculation holes are your gas exchange holes and the dry vermiculite is your filter."
I guess that sums it up pretty nicely. Thanks RR, as always.
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abesh
Warrior SixDelta




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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: c0_hush]
#7634369 - 11/14/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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From what I understand ( ) the holes only let out the excess gases... probably not a lot... kind of like the rocker thing on a pressure cooker, so there is still a lot of CO2 in the jar.
Basically the holes prevent the jars from building pressure and rotting or stalling. So a bit of the moisture may be lost with the gases that are being relesed, but I don't think it is any significient amount (cause in my jars at least... there is always visible moisture between the cake and glass).
Hope this helps.
PS.... this is what i understand from a bit of reading.... so I could very well be WAY off.
-------------------- If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams
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legallyhomeless
mooch


Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 4,051
Loc: EZRA for the Refuge
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: abesh]
#7634409 - 11/14/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I had jars like that before

just the bottom stopped colonizing. I decided to crumble and spawn to bulk... cased...
tripped hard for many months after.
i wouldnt worry. crumble and case or spawn to bulk. I wouldnt fruit in the condition they are in now
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mycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias



Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: abesh]
#7634437 - 11/14/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This only applies to pf-style cakes, however...
the dry vermiculite layer is your contamination barrier. Gases freely exchange through this medium bi-directionally. The inoculation holes on the lids are left uncovered, no foil, no micropore tape, no tyvek.
Because the mycelium generate their own heat, and because the glass is an insulator of heat, the path of least resistance for the rising heat (convection) is through the vermiculite barrier and out of those inoculation holes you drilled. As the hot air rises, a vacuum is created and in through those same holes, through the dry, innert vermiculite contamination barrier, fresh air is sucked into the jar. The mycelium "breath" in the jar in this way through the heat that they create as they colonize the substrate.
Hope that helps...
--------------------
Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude. I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected... - How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates - How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier - How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse ------------------------------------ figgusfiddus said: Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.
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legallyhomeless
mooch


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Posts: 4,051
Loc: EZRA for the Refuge
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: mycocurious]
#7634451 - 11/14/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycocurious said: This only applies to pf-style cakes, however...
the dry vermiculite layer is your contamination barrier. Gases freely exchange through this medium bi-directionally. The inoculation holes on the lids are left uncovered, no foil, no micropore tape, no tyvek.
Because the mycelium generate their own heat, and because the glass is an insulator of heat, the path of least resistance for the rising heat (convection) is through the vermiculite barrier and out of those inoculation holes you drilled. As the hot air rises, a vacuum is created and in through those same holes, through the dry, innert vermiculite contamination barrier, fresh air is sucked into the jar. The mycelium "breath" in the jar in this way through the heat that they create as they colonize the substrate.
Hope that helps...
intense
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Pan Elven
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: legallyhomeless]
#7634616 - 11/14/07 11:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hi Legallyhomeless, I have flipped now and if there is still no progress in a couple of days I may try your advice to crumble and case. However this is not what i had planned for a first attempt.
Is it easy ? What do I need to do ? What can go wrong ?
I have 5 incomplete jars, If I crumble all into the bottom of my fruiting chamber and case with verm will that work ?
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c0_hush
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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: Pan Elven]
#7635874 - 11/14/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Don't you want to wait a little longer and see if they'll respond? I would wait till the end of the week...
I'll take people's advice and expose the foil with inoculation holes, hope it doesn't catch an infection nor dry out the contents. Still a little hesitant but the ones who suggested this definitely have more experience with this.
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legallyhomeless
mooch


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Re: Help! Jars not fully colonized after 8 weeks.. [Re: c0_hush]
#7637155 - 11/14/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If everything everyone suggests doesnt work then case it. its very easy. put the cake into a baggie and crumble it up. then pay it in a pan or w.e container you are using. then you can microwave (easy way) or pasteurize (right way) your casing layer. apply it then wait. or spawn to bulk for better results
-------------------- MY TRADE LIST!!! FULLY AUTOMATIC!! 12-Pot Multi Grow Hydroponic System for Trade.
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komsija
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Re: Help! Jars not fully collonised after 8 weeks.. [Re: abesh]
#10187664 - 04/17/09 11:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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 This is my first Jars:) After 4 days Its not a pure white couler...is this couler normal in this period after 4 days...or is it just have to be pure,pure white????
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