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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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wisdom and elitism
    #7631236 - 11/13/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't it funny how easily one becomes the other?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7632101 - 11/13/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Everything is funny....    :thumbup:

Well, except having a headache....  N'stuff....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7632181 - 11/13/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A truly wise person wouldn't be involved in eliteism.

Truly wise people don't have a great deal of pride regarding their wisdom.

I wonder if someone can become less wise?

De-wised?

What does it mean to be truly wise?

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OfflineJG1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #7632193 - 11/13/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hatecamel speaks the truth.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7632205 - 11/13/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Lets say that wisdom is basically an understanding of existance, ok? Then wouldnt it seem that pursuit of wisdom is in the direction of generalization, exemplified by the fundamental philosophical question of "what is existance?"

Existance is this that and everything, and so in our seeming comprehension of existance, it is expressed in ultimatly generalized terms, applying to the entirity of what we sense.

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7635295 - 11/14/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, it is not trying to find "what is existence", or recognising a generalized comprehension of existence.

Wisdom is a human ability and attribute that recognizes the reality nad truth of the world around us and the spiritual, and importantly discerns the correct way for humans to live and behave in the world.

True wisdom does not lead to elitism, because people who are truly wise, as camel said because wise people are not proud. Pride is contrary to wisdom. Wise people are alienated by society and seek to share and enlighten others.

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635313 - 11/14/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wisdom + truth = power = elitism.

The problem is that even the wisest and honest person can be influenced by negative forces. Corruption and evil.

Fuck man if i was Jesus and you fed me enough alcohol, there's no telling what I may do. I may end up at the strip club anyway, u know?


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635315 - 11/14/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:

Wisdom is a human ability and attribute that recognizes the reality nad truth of the world around us and the spiritual, and  importantly discerns the correct way for humans to live and behave in the world.






Is there any correct (and universal) way for humans to behave in the world? Not that I know of. Maybe you could explain your statements.

Quote:

Wise people are alienated by society and seek to share and enlighten others.




Can you please rephrase that?
Is it because they're wise that they're trying to enlighten others?
Or do they do it because they're alienated?
I tend to think that the latter is more true. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7635318 - 11/14/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wisdom + truth = power = elitism.

The problem is that even the wisest and honest person can be influenced by negative forces. Corruption and evil. Therefore elitism could exhude nasty things.

Fuck man if i was Jesus and you fed me enough alcohol, there's no telling what I may do. I may end up at the strip club anyway, u know?


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7635324 - 11/14/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ginseng1 said:
Wisdom + truth = power = elitism.





Sorry, there's a missing link here.
I suspect that your calculations were not made by reason but by emotion.
Personal power (wisdom) has nothing to do with the power that one uses in order to control others. On the contrary.

Quote:

The problem is that even the wisest and honest person can be influenced by negative forces. Corruption and evil.




And what "negative forces" are we talking about?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7635330 - 11/14/07 02:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

wanting to share your wisdom she be for the greater good, not b/c youre lonely a pretentious.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7635352 - 11/14/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Knowledge can lead to elitism. Wisdom steers clear of such pitfalls.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Silversoul]
    #7635354 - 11/14/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Knowledge can lead to elitism. Wisdom steers clear of such pitfalls.




ah yes in deed.

Personal power. I guess i was more in a way trying to explain why bad things happen in this world even though ultimate wisdom does exist.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635357 - 11/14/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:




   
Quote:

jonathan_206 said:

    Wisdom is a human ability and attribute that recognizes the reality nad truth of the world around us and the spiritual, and importantly discerns the correct way for humans to live and behave in the world.




Is there any correct (and universal) way for humans to behave in the world? Not that I know of. Maybe you could explain your statements.




  When it comes to human behaviour, there are universal guidelines for people to follow to be wise, indeed. It doesn't mean that everyone must have the same exact persuits and interests, but it means that there is a fundamental and intrinsic nature to all human beings, and there is a way of love, a way of righteousness and life must be recognised and followed whether man or woman, child or whoever.

Quote:


   
Quote:

Quote:
    Wise people are alienated by society and seek to share and enlighten others.




Can you please rephrase that?
Is it because they're wise that they're trying to enlighten others?
Or do they do it because they're alienated?
I tend to think that the latter is more true. :smirk:




No, I won't rephrase it. Wise people are loving people who wish to have fellowship with others, who wish to edify others, to give. To give is greater than to receive, and they also wish to edify others so they can have better relationships with others and built friendships. They are alienated by the society at large because of their understanding and lifestyle.

ginseng:

Quote:

Wisdom + truth = power = elitism.




nonsense. first of all such a linear and simplistic equation cannot accurately address this issue. Second, there are different types of power. In this world, those who are wise do not hold the power. They hold power in a different realm. And elitism requires that those who are elites wish to alienate others from themselves. With wise people, the opposite is true. They wish to have fellowship with others and enlighten them, and close up the gaps.

Quote:


The problem is that even the wisest and honest person can be influenced by negative forces. Corruption and evil.




and then they're not wise anymore.

Quote:

Fuck man if i was Jesus and you fed me enough alcohol, there's no telling what I may do. I may end up at the strip club anyway, u know?




A wise person would not drink too much alcohol.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/14/07 02:17 PM)

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7635366 - 11/14/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wanting to share your wisdom she be for the greater good, not b/c youre lonely a pretentious.




There's nothing wrong with sharing wisdom because you're lonely. There's nothing wrong with loving others, or desiring to be loved. Take care to discern personal needs and desires from selfishness. Not every desire is selfish.

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7635369 - 11/14/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How about those that are truly wise, but are so wise to the point where they realize that only illusions label such matters of good and evil and elitism.

A very wise person may still eat meat from the slaughter house. Are they truly wise. I would say yes and no.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635394 - 11/14/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
No, it is not trying to find "what is existence", or recognising a generalized comprehension of existence.

Wisdom is a human ability and attribute that recognizes the reality nad truth of the world around us and the spiritual, and importantly discerns the correct way for humans to live and behave in the world.





All of what you mention, is derivitive of my assertion that wisdom is an understanding of existance, which you effectively bastardized by inserting this notion of "correct way" of living. Consequently, this is where you will find your elitism...

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7635396 - 11/14/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

wisdom deals with reality, not illusion.

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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635402 - 11/14/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

wanting to share your wisdom she be for the greater good, not b/c youre lonely a pretentious.




There's nothing wrong with sharing wisdom because you're lonely. There's nothing wrong with loving others, or desiring to be loved. Take care to discern personal needs and desires from selfishness. Not every desire is selfish.



there shouldnt be desire.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635407 - 11/14/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No, I won't rephrase it. Wise people are loving people who wish to have fellowship with others, who wish to edify others, to give. To give is greater than to receive, and they also wish to edify others so they can have better relationships with others and built friendships. They are alienated by the society at large because of their understanding and lifestyle.




How do you know exactly what wise people need to do?
I think that the most basic common sense is to realize that each of us have to travel our own way and reach our own conclusions, so keeping that in mind, I can suspect that a truly wise being has this decency and understanding in letting others make their own mistakes without telling them how they should act.
Giving is better than receiving? This sounds like total BS to me. Any time that we "give", we do it because we find pleasure or joy in it. So wouldn't it be appropriate to say that even when we apparently only give, we also receive something?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7635412 - 11/14/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

which you effectively bastardized by inserting this notion of "correct way" of living.




The correct way of living IS wisdom. It is what makes wisdom different from mere knowledge.

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635414 - 11/14/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Giving is recieving.. in the spiritual realm ofcourse.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7635418 - 11/14/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

there shouldnt be desire.




Without desire there is no humanity.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635424 - 11/14/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No.
Desire is emotional attachment. Mostly (if not all) having it's roots in anxiety.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635427 - 11/14/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

wisdom deals with reality, illusion, delusion, conclusion, inclusion exclusion....

And I concur with Mushroom trip as well..

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7635441 - 11/14/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Isn't it funny how easily one becomes the other?




You mean funny ha ha?:rofl2:

One cannot easily become the other. IMO it's impossible. Not if it was really wisdom.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635458 - 11/14/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know exactly what wise people need to do?




Because God told me. Because he revealed it to me through his word and through divine inspiration and recognition of God's nature through his creation.

Quote:

I think that the most basic common sense is to realize that each of us have to travel our own way and reach our own conclusions, so keeping that in mind, I can suspect that a truly wise being has this decency and understanding in letting others make their own mistakes without telling them how they should act.




Your assertion rest upon the premise that there is no right way to live. My assertion rests upon the premise that there is, and that humans have fundamental and intrinsic qualities which must be recognized.

Quote:


Giving is better than receiving? This sounds like total BS to me. Any time that we "give", we do it because we find pleasure or joy in it. So wouldn't it be appropriate to say that even when we apparently only give, we also receive something?




Not every time. Imagine someone in extreme danger, and you rush to save their lives. You are moved with compassion and empathy and fear for another. Are you really acting selfishly in this instance? Don't say it is because it's your feelings you're serving. The feeling itself is intrinsically selfless.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635492 - 11/14/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Because God told me. Because he revealed it to me through his word and through divine inspiration and recognition of God's nature through his creation.




Arguments like "god told me so" have no place in this forum.

Quote:

Your assertion rest upon the premise that there is no right way to live. My assertion rests upon the premise that there is, and that humans have fundamental and intrinsic qualities which must be recognized.




Read again what I said.
I didn't say that there's no right way to live, but that it differs from individual to individual.
Therefore, there can't be a common recipe, even though out fundamental needs are the same.
We are complex beings and even though apparently we are the same, there are so many things which makes us different.

Quote:

Not every time. Imagine someone in extreme danger, and you rush to save their lives. You are moved with compassion and empathy and fear for another. Are you really acting selfishly in this instance? Don't say it is because it's your feelings you're serving. The feeling itself is intrinsically selfless.




And that Compassion is Love. And love is something that makes us feel good, and pleasure and joy, so we save that person for those reason as well.
Sorry to break it to you, but selfless is just an Illusion.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635493 - 11/14/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No.
Desire is emotional attachment. Mostly (if not all) having it's roots in anxiety.




Desire does not mean you are necessarily anxious for anything.

Without desire, there is no will. Without will, there is no humanity.

Quote:


wisdom deals with reality, illusion, delusion, conclusion, inclusion exclusion....




You missed the point.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635509 - 11/14/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

No.
Desire is emotional attachment. Mostly (if not all) having it's roots in anxiety.




Desire does not mean you are necessarily anxious for anything.

Without desire, there is no will. Without will, there is no humanity.






No again.
Desire is the unconscious, uncontrollable need.
Manifesting one's Will is manifesting one's aware, deliberate and lucid intention.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635524 - 11/14/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not every time. Imagine someone in extreme danger, and you rush to save their lives. You are moved with compassion and empathy and fear for another. Are you really acting selfishly in this instance? Don't say it is because it's your feelings you're serving. The feeling itself is intrinsically selfless.


Sorry Charlie but there is no selfless act. There would have to be no self. It's the self who is moved by compassion and empathy etc. The self decides that these are the good and so acts on them because one wants to be good. Why? Of course because being good brings us pleasure and or some sort of fulfillment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635533 - 11/14/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
Because God told me. Because he revealed it to me through his word and through divine inspiration and recognition of God's nature through his creation.

Quote:




Arguments like "god told me so" have no place in this forum.







Wrong. You must recognise that ultimately all perception, at some point, it simply is, and there's nothing more that can be said than to say I heard it, I felt it, I know it is so. If you don't like my perception, that's your choice. Just don't tell me it doesn't belong here. There is a place for my perception just as well as yours.

Quote:


I didn't say that there's no right way to live, but that it differs from individual to individual.




Then there would not be a right way to live. This is subjective, my understanding is objective.

Quote:

And that Compassion is Love. And love is something that makes us feel good, and pleasure and joy, so we save that person for those reason as well.
Sorry to break it to you, but selfless is just an Illusion.





So in that moment you're worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really feeling pleasure and joy?

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635548 - 11/14/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry Charlie but there is no selfless act. There would have to be no self. It's the self who is moved by compassion and empathy etc. The self decides that these are the good and so acts on them because one wants to be good. Why? Of course because being good brings us pleasure and or some sort of fulfillment.




again, in that moment you are worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really concerned about being good so you will feel good? I don't know about you, but I would be concerned about that persons life, not whether it makes me feel happy or good.

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635557 - 11/14/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No again.
Desire is the unconscious, uncontrollable need.
Manifesting one's Will is manifesting one's aware, deliberate and lucid intention.




edit: I must rephrase

Desire can be intrinsic. Or it can be controllable and deliberate. Either way desire and will are inseperable. You cannot have a will without desire, whether intrinsic or deliberately manifested.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635561 - 11/14/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635573 - 11/14/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong. You must recognise that ultimately all perception, at some point, it simply is, and there's nothing more that can be said than to say I heard it, I felt it, I know it is so. If you don't like my perception, that's your choice. Just don't tell me it doesn't belong here. There is a place for my perception just as well as yours.




No I don't have to recognize that.
This forum is strictly dedicated to those who are willing to discuss in a rational and mature way.
Your arguments fail at both of these.

Quote:

Then there would not be a right way to live. This is subjective, my understanding is objective.




  :orly:

How so? :strokebeard:
And please explain yourself in a logical way instead of simply saying things like I know so, god told me so and the like. :thumbdown:

Quote:

So in that moment you're worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really feeling pleasure and joy?




Because that person makes us feel some sort of joy. I though I made it clear enough.
Another example that I hope it would shed some light is that: some people love their car SO much that when it's broken they're worried about it. They feel fear. Does that mean that worrying about it is a selfless act? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635578 - 11/14/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.




So in your view, compassion and selfless acts of love are merely my personal values, and are subjective. That is wrong. You deny intrinsic human nature.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635588 - 11/14/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No. :smirk:
Even though desire and Will might seem similar at the first sight, there is a fine distinction (but with many implications) between the two of them.
Can you keep focus on that distinction? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635594 - 11/14/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.




So in your view, compassion and selfless acts of love are merely my personal values, and are subjective. That is wrong. You deny intrinsic human nature.




Please define intrisic human nature for me.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635613 - 11/14/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


How so? :strokebeard:
And please explain yourself in a logical way instead of simply saying things like I know so, god told me so and the like. :thumbdown:






You jump on me so fast you don't even give me a chance to explain instances in more detail (not that that's what this thread is ultimately about) before you come down on me. It was a summarizing statement, and if you don't like it, I'm not sorry.

You keep trying to hold me to some standard of logic based upon your own personal perceptional premise and understanding of the world, which I emphatically deny. Now stop it.

   
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
    So in that moment you're worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really feeling pleasure and joy?




Because that person makes us feel some sort of joy. I though I made it clear enough.
Another example that I hope it would shed some light is that: some people love their car SO much that when it's broken they're worried about it. They feel fear. Does that mean that worrying about it is a selfless act? :strokebeard:




That person makes us feel joy when their life is in danger? When you've never even met them before?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635624 - 11/14/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.




So in your view, compassion and selfless acts of love are merely my personal values, and are subjective. That is wrong. You deny intrinsic human nature.




No YOU ARE WRONG:rofl2:

If they're not subjective then how come everyone (like me) doesn't share them?

All your views are  your personal values here. If you can't see that then you can't see. My views and every other persons on earth are in some way different then yours. Even on the things that people agree about there is some variation. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Etc.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635629 - 11/14/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No. :smirk:
Even though desire and Will might seem similar at the first sight, there is a fine distinction (but with many implications) between the two of them.
Can you keep focus on that distinction? :smirk:




You cannot have will without desire. It's foolish to say you can. To will for anything, is to desire for that thing.

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635638 - 11/14/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

im glad i didnt have to explain that whole desire issue:tongue2:


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND


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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635670 - 11/14/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


All your views are your personal values here. If you can't see that then you can't see. My views and every other persons on earth are in some way different then yours. Even on the things that people agree about there is some variation. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Etc.


'

Just because there are different opinions does not make them subjective.

Subjective means it depends on ME. But an opinion can be based on objective truth.

You use the word subjective to mean that the only truth is the subjective truth, to each and every person.

But how do you determine this without an objective truth? You cannot.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/14/07 03:22 PM)

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635684 - 11/14/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You jump on me so fast you don't even give me a chance to explain instances in more detail (not that that's what this thread is ultimately about) before you come down on me. It was a summarizing statement, and if you don't like it, I'm not sorry.




I don't jump into any conclusion, I simply reply to your answers.
I don't give you a chance to explain? :what:
What have you done instead of trying to explain, while posting?
One would think that when the other person has replied to his/hes questions, they took all their time and explained the best way they could the matter in discussion. For all I know, I didn't set you any time limit to answer my questions.

Quote:

You keep trying to hold me to some standard of logic based upon your own personal perceptional premise and understanding of the world, which I emphatically deny. Now stop it.




Please keep your emotional drama to yourself. I am in no way interested in you inner experiences, so let's focus on the subject, shall we?
Oh, and just to make things clear, I am not holding onto you my personal perception about logic, since the concept of logic exists loooong before I was born. :smirk:
And to make things easier for you, here it is:

Quote:

log·ic      (lŏj'ĭk)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
  2.
        1. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
        2. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
        3. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
        4. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
        5. Computer circuitry.
        6. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.
  3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.




:wink:

Quote:

That person makes us feel joy when their life is in danger? When you've never even met them before?




No, but one might find comfort in the thought that he saved a life, and therefore made his/her life useful. :smirk:
The list of reasons can go on but I find it useless to continue as I explained to you more than enough.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635687 - 11/14/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So at this point, how many of us will readily admit theyre elitist?

:mypleasure:

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7635701 - 11/14/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
So at this point, how many of us will readily admit theyre elitist?

:mypleasure:




hey.. i've claimed that smiley. only i may use it :mypleasure:


--------------------

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7635709 - 11/14/07 03:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
So at this point, how many of us will readily admit theyre elitist?

:mypleasure:




hey.. i've claimed that smiley. only i may use it :mypleasure:




That's SO elitist of you to say that  :crankey:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635722 - 11/14/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But how do you determine this without an objective truth? You cannot.

Sure I can and I do. I don't believe there is an objective truth to be found. Of course if I was insane I might believe that what I thought was truth (because god told me on psychedelics one night) had to be objective truth because I thought it was, but that's even more self-important and egotistical than I can work myself up to. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635724 - 11/14/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
So at this point, how many of us will readily admit theyre elitist?

:mypleasure:




hey.. i've claimed that smiley. only i may use it :mypleasure:




That's SO elitist of you to say that  :crankey:




That's so elitist of you to point that out :mad2:


--------------------

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7635742 - 11/14/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know.
That's why I'm the number one elitist :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635763 - 11/14/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:mypleasure: I humbly allow you to be in that position for I am like the wise leader whom nobody knows the extent of his efforts because he did it with no trace of ego.


--------------------

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7635770 - 11/14/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You let a gurl wup you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635787 - 11/14/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

But how do you determine this without an objective truth? You cannot.




Sure I can and I do. I don't believe there is an objective truth to be found. Of course if I was insane I might believe that what I thought was truth (because god told me on psychedelics one night) had to be objective truth because I thought it was, but that's even more self-important and egotistical than I can work myself up to. :tongue:




You don't understand.

To perceive anything, one must start with at least 1 objective truth.

You say everyone's "truth" is subjective. But you then determine their opinions weight of objectivity (or lack of it). You say, no, that's not objective. How can you tell, if your perception is subjective also? And how can you say, you don't believe there is an objective truth to be found, judging by your subjective opinion? This is a objective statement. But you cannot determine objective by subjective. But to determine subjective, you must first determine objective.

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635788 - 11/14/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No! :crankey:


--------------------

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7635791 - 11/14/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



Hell yeah :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635800 - 11/14/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So Jon, What exactly is the difference between wisdom and elitism then?

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635806 - 11/14/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

this isn't the last of meeeeeee  :spongebob:


--------------------

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635810 - 11/14/07 03:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You say everyone's "truth" is subjective. Here is my objective truth.:monkeydance:

. How can you tell, if your perception is subjective also?

I can't, I can't do it because I do not now how to tell what the truth is. So maybe my subjective opinions about you are really objective but I certainly don't think so.

How could I determine objective truth if I am not the creator of it? Most folk do not believe what I believe. That tells me something important.

I "believe" to know objective truth one would have to have infinite capabilities of thought. As far as I know, no human has that. And as far as I know (although I have explored it for 50+ years) there is no way to know if there is really a god or not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7635826 - 11/14/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So Jon, What exactly is the difference between wisdom and elitism then?




There are many differences. One great difference is that wisdom is humble and seeks to include everyone. Elitism is proud and seeks to exclude others.

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635829 - 11/14/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I want to include everyone in my agnosticism. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635838 - 11/14/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes, for gods sake...

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7636081 - 11/14/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

for who's sake?


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND


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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7636106 - 11/14/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

this room is like full of kids of trying to prove to each other whos parents are cooler.

or like holy war.

this is useless.

I'm off to mysticism.


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7636133 - 11/14/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
You deny intrinsic human nature.




No YOU ARE WRONG:rofl2:
.
If they're not subjective then how come everyone (like me) doesn't share them?




Maybe this proves that you are not human....?    :yoda:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7636140 - 11/14/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for checking in before leaving. Be sure to be home by supper or at least call your mother.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7636145 - 11/14/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's about the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7636241 - 11/14/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Elitism is foolish, it inherently excludes the ideas of others and so is antithetical to the pursuit of further wisdom in oneself AND in others who are more impressionable. It is a mistake made by the wise for which they pay dearly and from which they never return when they make the statement, "I know more than you, and you, and you."

Should I be on the mysticism board instead of the P&S board? I'm not so big on paranormal mumbo-jumbo, but then I'm not so big on scientism and egomania either.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 05:32 PM)

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7636479 - 11/14/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Elitism is foolish, it inherently excludes the ideas of others and so is antithetical to the pursuit of further wisdom in oneself AND in others who are more impressionable.




You cannot gain wisdom or knowledge without excluding the ideas of others. It's impossible.For whatever knowledge you have, there is an antithesis.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7636550 - 11/14/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Elitism is foolish, it inherently excludes the ideas of others and so is antithetical to the pursuit of further wisdom in oneself AND in others who are more impressionable.




You cannot gain wisdom or knowledge without excluding the ideas of others. It's impossible.For whatever knowledge you have, there is an antithesis.




This is true. However, wisdom should be able to withstand open and frank consideration of opposing viewpoints. If it cannot or will not, this is a sign of fallacy. I suppose, therefore, that elitism comes from incomplete or flawed wisdom, or perhaps by wisdom tainted with insecurity. My point stands.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 06:07 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7636569 - 11/14/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Elitism
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.





Thinking that someone else's ideas are incorrect does not mean that you believe you should receive favorted treatment. I think that this discussion is actually about wisdom and superiority, and not about elitism at all.

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Veritas]
    #7636594 - 11/14/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You mean we need to start all over now?:sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Veritas]
    #7636602 - 11/14/07 06:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps elitism isn't the word I'm looking for. I'm not really sure what the word I'm looking for is. "Egomania" is too strong. "Elitism" is too political. Perhaps the correct term is ideological chauvinism? I see a lot of it.

My point is I've lost count of the self-professed truth-seekers I've met who love to talk about open-mindedness and diversity but then proceed to trash Christians for no reason other than holding the beliefs they do. Or trippers at the shroomery who assume anybody who has trepidations about, or abstains from, the psychedelic experience is naive and foolish. It's absurd.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 06:15 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7636693 - 11/14/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, ideological chauvinism sounds about right.

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