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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: daytripper23]
    #7635412 - 11/14/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

which you effectively bastardized by inserting this notion of "correct way" of living.




The correct way of living IS wisdom. It is what makes wisdom different from mere knowledge.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635414 - 11/14/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Giving is recieving.. in the spiritual realm ofcourse.


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7635418 - 11/14/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

there shouldnt be desire.




Without desire there is no humanity.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635424 - 11/14/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No.
Desire is emotional attachment. Mostly (if not all) having it's roots in anxiety.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635427 - 11/14/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wisdom deals with reality, illusion, delusion, conclusion, inclusion exclusion....

And I concur with Mushroom trip as well..


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7635441 - 11/14/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Isn't it funny how easily one becomes the other?




You mean funny ha ha?:rofl2:

One cannot easily become the other. IMO it's impossible. Not if it was really wisdom.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635458 - 11/14/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know exactly what wise people need to do?




Because God told me. Because he revealed it to me through his word and through divine inspiration and recognition of God's nature through his creation.

Quote:

I think that the most basic common sense is to realize that each of us have to travel our own way and reach our own conclusions, so keeping that in mind, I can suspect that a truly wise being has this decency and understanding in letting others make their own mistakes without telling them how they should act.




Your assertion rest upon the premise that there is no right way to live. My assertion rests upon the premise that there is, and that humans have fundamental and intrinsic qualities which must be recognized.

Quote:


Giving is better than receiving? This sounds like total BS to me. Any time that we "give", we do it because we find pleasure or joy in it. So wouldn't it be appropriate to say that even when we apparently only give, we also receive something?




Not every time. Imagine someone in extreme danger, and you rush to save their lives. You are moved with compassion and empathy and fear for another. Are you really acting selfishly in this instance? Don't say it is because it's your feelings you're serving. The feeling itself is intrinsically selfless.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635492 - 11/14/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Because God told me. Because he revealed it to me through his word and through divine inspiration and recognition of God's nature through his creation.




Arguments like "god told me so" have no place in this forum.

Quote:

Your assertion rest upon the premise that there is no right way to live. My assertion rests upon the premise that there is, and that humans have fundamental and intrinsic qualities which must be recognized.




Read again what I said.
I didn't say that there's no right way to live, but that it differs from individual to individual.
Therefore, there can't be a common recipe, even though out fundamental needs are the same.
We are complex beings and even though apparently we are the same, there are so many things which makes us different.

Quote:

Not every time. Imagine someone in extreme danger, and you rush to save their lives. You are moved with compassion and empathy and fear for another. Are you really acting selfishly in this instance? Don't say it is because it's your feelings you're serving. The feeling itself is intrinsically selfless.




And that Compassion is Love. And love is something that makes us feel good, and pleasure and joy, so we save that person for those reason as well.
Sorry to break it to you, but selfless is just an Illusion.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Registered: 09/24/07
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635493 - 11/14/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No.
Desire is emotional attachment. Mostly (if not all) having it's roots in anxiety.




Desire does not mean you are necessarily anxious for anything.

Without desire, there is no will. Without will, there is no humanity.

Quote:


wisdom deals with reality, illusion, delusion, conclusion, inclusion exclusion....




You missed the point.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635509 - 11/14/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

No.
Desire is emotional attachment. Mostly (if not all) having it's roots in anxiety.




Desire does not mean you are necessarily anxious for anything.

Without desire, there is no will. Without will, there is no humanity.






No again.
Desire is the unconscious, uncontrollable need.
Manifesting one's Will is manifesting one's aware, deliberate and lucid intention.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635524 - 11/14/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Not every time. Imagine someone in extreme danger, and you rush to save their lives. You are moved with compassion and empathy and fear for another. Are you really acting selfishly in this instance? Don't say it is because it's your feelings you're serving. The feeling itself is intrinsically selfless.


Sorry Charlie but there is no selfless act. There would have to be no self. It's the self who is moved by compassion and empathy etc. The self decides that these are the good and so acts on them because one wants to be good. Why? Of course because being good brings us pleasure and or some sort of fulfillment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635533 - 11/14/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
Because God told me. Because he revealed it to me through his word and through divine inspiration and recognition of God's nature through his creation.

Quote:




Arguments like "god told me so" have no place in this forum.







Wrong. You must recognise that ultimately all perception, at some point, it simply is, and there's nothing more that can be said than to say I heard it, I felt it, I know it is so. If you don't like my perception, that's your choice. Just don't tell me it doesn't belong here. There is a place for my perception just as well as yours.

Quote:


I didn't say that there's no right way to live, but that it differs from individual to individual.




Then there would not be a right way to live. This is subjective, my understanding is objective.

Quote:

And that Compassion is Love. And love is something that makes us feel good, and pleasure and joy, so we save that person for those reason as well.
Sorry to break it to you, but selfless is just an Illusion.





So in that moment you're worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really feeling pleasure and joy?


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635548 - 11/14/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry Charlie but there is no selfless act. There would have to be no self. It's the self who is moved by compassion and empathy etc. The self decides that these are the good and so acts on them because one wants to be good. Why? Of course because being good brings us pleasure and or some sort of fulfillment.




again, in that moment you are worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really concerned about being good so you will feel good? I don't know about you, but I would be concerned about that persons life, not whether it makes me feel happy or good.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635557 - 11/14/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No again.
Desire is the unconscious, uncontrollable need.
Manifesting one's Will is manifesting one's aware, deliberate and lucid intention.




edit: I must rephrase

Desire can be intrinsic. Or it can be controllable and deliberate. Either way desire and will are inseperable. You cannot have a will without desire, whether intrinsic or deliberately manifested.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635561 - 11/14/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635573 - 11/14/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong. You must recognise that ultimately all perception, at some point, it simply is, and there's nothing more that can be said than to say I heard it, I felt it, I know it is so. If you don't like my perception, that's your choice. Just don't tell me it doesn't belong here. There is a place for my perception just as well as yours.




No I don't have to recognize that.
This forum is strictly dedicated to those who are willing to discuss in a rational and mature way.
Your arguments fail at both of these.

Quote:

Then there would not be a right way to live. This is subjective, my understanding is objective.




  :orly:

How so? :strokebeard:
And please explain yourself in a logical way instead of simply saying things like I know so, god told me so and the like. :thumbdown:

Quote:

So in that moment you're worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really feeling pleasure and joy?




Because that person makes us feel some sort of joy. I though I made it clear enough.
Another example that I hope it would shed some light is that: some people love their car SO much that when it's broken they're worried about it. They feel fear. Does that mean that worrying about it is a selfless act? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: Icelander]
    #7635578 - 11/14/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.




So in your view, compassion and selfless acts of love are merely my personal values, and are subjective. That is wrong. You deny intrinsic human nature.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635588 - 11/14/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No. :smirk:
Even though desire and Will might seem similar at the first sight, there is a fine distinction (but with many implications) between the two of them.
Can you keep focus on that distinction? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7635594 - 11/14/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Not everyone would be concerned and they would not act to save that person.

Your values bring you some sort of satisfaction and your values dictate your actions in this instance.




So in your view, compassion and selfless acts of love are merely my personal values, and are subjective. That is wrong. You deny intrinsic human nature.




Please define intrisic human nature for me.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: wisdom and elitism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7635613 - 11/14/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


How so? :strokebeard:
And please explain yourself in a logical way instead of simply saying things like I know so, god told me so and the like. :thumbdown:






You jump on me so fast you don't even give me a chance to explain instances in more detail (not that that's what this thread is ultimately about) before you come down on me. It was a summarizing statement, and if you don't like it, I'm not sorry.

You keep trying to hold me to some standard of logic based upon your own personal perceptional premise and understanding of the world, which I emphatically deny. Now stop it.

   
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
    So in that moment you're worried about that persons life and saving them, and having fear for their lives, you're really feeling pleasure and joy?




Because that person makes us feel some sort of joy. I though I made it clear enough.
Another example that I hope it would shed some light is that: some people love their car SO much that when it's broken they're worried about it. They feel fear. Does that mean that worrying about it is a selfless act? :strokebeard:




That person makes us feel joy when their life is in danger? When you've never even met them before?


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