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InvisibleIcelander
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Self help?
    #7630106 - 11/13/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have a friend who has often complained that his dad often went from one Guru to another and one spiritual flavor of the month to the next. He says that is now why he doesn't believe in that crap.

Here's the thing though. I always see him reading the next self help book from A to Z and then planning out how he is going to create a better experience.

Frankly I don't see the difference.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7630128 - 11/13/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Simple--the proof is in the pudding! If one is actually able to improve their experience of life through self-help books, then it is a useful practice. If one merely reads the books and mouths the mantras, but never applies anything they've studied, then it is not a useful practice.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630141 - 11/13/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Simple--the proof is in the pudding! If one is actually able to improve their experience of life through self-help books, then it is a useful practice. If one merely reads the books and mouths the mantras, but never applies anything they've studied, then it is not a useful practice.



I still don't see a difference, as the same can be said for spiritual practices.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630147 - 11/13/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Have you learned how to apply the "Law of Attraction" when it comes to material things? I thought you used the "Law of Hard Work" which is so antiquated.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/13/07 12:08 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self help? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7630162 - 11/13/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, exactly! If a spiritual practice helps someone to improve their experience, then it is useful. If not, it is either not useful or not useful for them.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630163 - 11/13/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It would be hard to determine if his mother was not changed for the good in some ways by her work in this area. We can't compare what she would have been like without them.

In the same fasion he continues to read one book after another, make plans and then just move on to the next book a little while later. While I could say that he is slowly changing, I don't see it moving any faster than if he hadn't read them or had just taken the first one (they usually all say the same thing) and really worked it.

I still honestly don't see the difference.

Of course I like this guy a lot and think he's just stuck like the rest of us. I think he's kidding himself a little about the book work though and actually something like his mom in this area.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/13/07 12:06 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7630187 - 11/13/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I can't speak for your friend's experience with this, but I know that I have gotten some growth "boosts" from working with certain self-help materials. I had not experienced these changes prior to undertaking serious personal growth work, so I don't think that they were just random or associated with biological aging.

Each to his/her own, yes? Ultimately, if one feels fairly happy with their progress and can deal with their day-to-day experiences with equanimity, does it matter what method they used to get there?

As to whether or not your friend is "like" his mom, is someone who bashes holes in their bedroom walls with a hammer the same as a carpenter? They are both using the same tool, yet the effect is very different.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630228 - 11/13/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

is someone who bashes holes in their bedroom walls with a hammer the same as a carpenter?




But, but, I always putty and spackle them up after an 'episode'...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630246 - 11/13/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This is pretty subjective. I think his mom is overall a pretty good person and I would suggest that she derived much more benefit from her work with her chosen teachers then might be noticed by someone not so intimately tied to and affected by this person.

Each to his/her own, yes? Ultimately, if one feels fairly happy with their progress and can deal with their day-to-day experiences with equanimity, does it matter what method they used to get there?

No it doesnt' matter and in that case I think he is wrong about his mother. They both were doing the same thing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/13/07 12:26 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7630317 - 11/13/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You could be right, or you might be hindered in your assessment of the methods by your lack of direct information. :shrug:

The difference I see between worshipping a Guru and using methods in order to better "aim" one's personal growth efforts is that the latter does not involve giving up one's power & elevating another flawed human to Godlike status.  If the focus is on worshipful following, the changes will be short-lived.  Soon enough, the Guru will show his/her feet of clay, the follower will be disillusioned, and all of the temporary "improvements" will be discarded.  Useless.


Edited by Veritas (11/13/07 12:47 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630327 - 11/13/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes that's for sure,


same for him.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630426 - 11/13/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Soon enough, the Guru will show his/her feet of clay...




Note to self: when playing guru, always wear long pants and shoes.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self help? [Re: Veritas]
    #7630466 - 11/13/07 01:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)


The difference I see between worshipping a Guru and using methods in order to better "aim" one's personal growth efforts is that the latter does not involve giving up one's power & elevating another flawed human to Godlike status. If the focus is on worshipful following, the changes will be short-lived. Soon enough, the Guru will show his/her feet of clay, the follower will be disillusioned, and all of the temporary "improvements" will be discarded. Useless.


I agree and here's where it looks to me like there is a similarity. It's the continual stream of self help books. As I said, one or three should be enough. I have spent years doing this myself. When you read the books and make plans one feels like one is doing something. But usually doing something consistently enough to make a change is very difficult. So instead I would read the next book and get fired up again for a short time and just turn that into my drug of choice.

It's like anything else. Dieting, exercise, self awareness etc etc. Often we cannot sustain it and keep telling ourselves over and over that we are about to start and keep at it. To fuel our fantasy we buy the book or the exercise equipment or the DVD. Usually they end up in the closet. It's very human and we all do this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/13/07 01:13 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7634303 - 11/14/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think, self-help books primarily exist to let one feel bad :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7634817 - 11/14/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's the continual stream of self help books. As I said, one or three should be enough. I have spent years doing this myself. When you read the books and make plans one feels like one is doing something. But usually doing something consistently enough to make a change is very difficult. So instead I would read the next book and get fired up again for a short time and just turn that into my drug of choice.





Probably pretty common. I've done it. Sometimes people forget the 'self' part of self-help. Part A is to gather information about how to change your life (i.e. read a self-help book). Part B is living the principles that inspired you. Way harder. Takes forever, actually.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


Edited by WhiskeyClone (11/14/07 12:20 PM)


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7634836 - 11/14/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Self help is a myth, no one can actually help themselves.  Your only option is to go to a high paid Psychiatrist that will just ask you stupid open ended questions and take your money regardless if you kill yourself in month.  DUH! :thumbup:

On a serious note.. I'm reading this one

He signed my copy for me, so I figured I might as well read it.  He's a pretty cool guy, I meant him about 2 weeks ago, we sat and talked for almost 2 hours.  Defiantly one of the better ones I've ever read, it works a lot with Jungian techniques.


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"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (11/14/07 12:17 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Self help? [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7634882 - 11/14/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

While you don't give ANY money for a self help book right? :smirk:

Self help books can be helpful for some people, psychiatrists for others, and others can just help themselves without any help from outside. Let's just leave it at that and accept the fact that different methods work for different people. :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Self help? [Re: Icelander]
    #7635836 - 11/14/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm going to think outside the box and write a Self Deception book.

Oh wait, the new age section of Borders already has those. Shit, there goes my plan to become rich and famous. Nevermind... :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Self help? [Re: Diploid]
    #7635842 - 11/14/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well you already are rich. And probably famous in your own mind. Man you made it to the top.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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