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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7625652 - 11/12/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I might tear you apart too.
I agree that this is what amounts to will,
but I don't think there is a separate "I" in the comparator process, imagine that,
free will,
but no separate self having it.
this process is the will,
or the essential self
i.e. it is the end of the line for either self or will:
conditioned by history, but raging along obliquely between variously layered states of mind while unpredictably savoring the taste of living moments


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7625657 - 11/12/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I would have to be libertarian.
thoughts and desires and emotions are associative replay (Skinner would be happy with me here).
however, we also have a prefrontal cortex with which we can examine our life stream at a meta level.
very complex and variable combinations are layered together in this meta thought arena.
the mind can see accross time spans and choices can be made outside of predictible contexts.
these choices are where we excercise our freedom.
here is where we steer ourselves into new courses.
occasionally we are here and make wise spontaneous decisions as well.
usually we operate as if in an automated dream program ignoring the complexity and forgoing sponteneity




The prefrontal cortex is just as deterministic as the rest of the brain.

It is interesting that the prefrontal cortex is 'wired up' to regions of the brain such as the amygdalae, hippocampus, temporal sulcus, insula, etc. The 'emotions' have a much bigger effect on human decision making than most people realize.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7625919 - 11/12/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

you got the emotions (body feeling memories)
you got mental states (how layered and long lasting mental images are)-partly dependent upon emotional feedback
you got short term memory (what has been happennning over 5 minutes)- modulated by a series of thoughts and feelings making a trail of reaction contexts.
and you got all the potential of history (deeper memory)- conditioning that is not related to the stream of consciousness at this point.
all that gets mixed with sensory input;
the prefrontal can relate it all with the path you want to follow.
little adjustments at this point are the vitual helmsman,
that is the will.
emotions are like waves and wind,
stream of consciousness or short term memory are like the landscape (seascape)


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7626522 - 11/12/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There's actually another option here: indeterminism, or "pessimistic incompatibilism." This is a position which rejects both determinism and free will, and sees everything as probability or chance. I don't quite agree with it, but if you're using quantum mechanics as your basis, it kind of makes sense.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7626649 - 11/12/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't call myself a determinist.

I believe in the action of the Tao.

I have argued this point with Veritas and our friends for hours last night.

You can believe in free will or determinism and they both end up the same IMO. It doesn't matter, as what happens is the only thing that ever could have happened and is of course what did happen. If something else could have happened it would have. This is the Tao in action. Veritas says I don't belong in this argument.:lol: That's because I've transcended it.:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #7626694 - 11/12/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It doesn't matter, as what happens is the only thing that ever could have happened and is of course what did happen. If something else could have happened it would have.




...that is determinism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7626706 - 11/12/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well that's only true for after it has happened. Before anything has happened you have the free will to choose your course. Once you have chosen however there was never really any choices at all. It's just the action of the Tao. Nothing was predetermined and yet there could only be one outcome. That is the mystery of Tao.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/12/07 04:53 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #7626716 - 11/12/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you are a 'Free Willy'ist, are you able to change your mind to become a Determinista?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7626726 - 11/12/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We are all of it at once. I can fully agree with the idea of free will and determinism. They are both limited concepts within the finite and do not define the infinite.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #7626740 - 11/12/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thems are finighting words. :box:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #7626745 - 11/12/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

eh, still sounds like determinism to me.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7626749 - 11/12/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My Nagual can wup your Tonal any time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #7626781 - 11/12/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



VS.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7626795 - 11/12/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:whoa:I see some fungus

Please use some tonalfontate lotion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #7626806 - 11/12/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I want to be a pioneer and the first to grow cubes on a live human.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7627174 - 11/12/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

All of our choices our conditioned to the extent that we could never make another choice in a given situation.

Intuitively, this seems resonable, but the best currently-available evidence of Quantum Indeterminacy says this is not so.

From all appearances, the universe is NOT intuitive, and nothing is predetermined. The only thing that IS predetermined is the probability of an outcome. The outcome itself is never a certainty.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Diploid]
    #7627196 - 11/12/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The prefrontal cortex is just as deterministic as the rest of the brain.

The prefrontal cortex relies on chemical mechanism that the evidence says are most definitely NOT deterministic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinemushroomplume
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Registered: 10/16/06
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Last seen: 14 years, 19 days
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Diploid]
    #7627267 - 11/12/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I have to add, that the prefrontal cortex allows us to examine thoughts, desires and emotions and pull them out of patterns of associative replay, and this is largely a matter of will. One can choose to confront one's emotions and habits and change them. I see this as being a point at which free will comes into play. Although I suppose Stace would tear me apart on this one.




True, I think it is an illusion though that our will is examining and deconstructing thoughts. This seems more like a genuine reaction to a situation. You walk in on your wife cheating with the neighbor. You can only react one way. Given the way you feel, what knowledge you have gained from prior experiences, the amount of control you have over your temper, etc, etc...

There is only one way to react, given that people are conditioned.

Decision making is similar to a scale, conditions, ideas, feelings, and whatnot become weighed out and inevitably lead in one direction. A person cannot feel completely neutral towards any given situation.



Edited by oliveplume (11/12/07 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Diploid]
    #7627551 - 11/12/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The prefrontal cortex is just as deterministic as the rest of the brain.

The prefrontal cortex relies on chemical mechanism that the evidence says are most definitely NOT deterministic.




Please elaborate. Isn't quantum indeterminacy consistent with physiological determinacy?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (11/12/07 07:43 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7627832 - 11/12/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't quantum indeterminacy consistent with physiological determinacy?

No. When a neuron is on the cusp of firing, whether or not it actually fires is impossible to determine, even in principle. All that can be known is the probability because the electrons involved in the chemistry that makes a neuron fire or not fire do not have positions. When they're observed, THEN they have a position. Before the observation, every point in space has a finite probability of being the point where they will ultimately be observed.

The probability that any given electron will be found close to the nucleus is very high. That probability decays very quickly in the space away from the nucleus, but it never reaches zero. An electron in your finger has a V-E-R-Y small (but not zero) probability of being observed in another galaxy when the observation is made, and a very high probability of being observed near the nucleus.

So, they're not particles, they're likelihoods. We use the word 'particle' because humans can't easily conceive what electrons really are. It's only because of the math that we can get a handle on them to some extent.

This is like looking at a block of 100 radioactive atoms with a half-life of one minute. All that can be known is that 50 of them will decay in one minute but which fifty cannot be known, not even in principle.

The best current knowledge says that there does not exist some internal preordained variable in 50 of those atoms that we just can't see. The best current knowledge says that the atoms are absolutely identical, yet 50 will decay and 50 will not.

All that can be said is that any given atom has a 50% chance of decaying. Nothing more.

This probabilistic nature of the universe seems to imply non-determinism. God does play dice, it seems.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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