|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
free will vs. determinism
#7623577 - 11/11/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Alright mush, you asked for it (although why you didn't just do it yourself is beyond me.) Here's your free will vs. determinism thread. I think that this is an appropriate place to move the off topic conversation out of "shamanism" and into a home of it's own.
So... free will. Do we have it? I was just arguing with Icey (over in my stunningly popular thread about shamanism) about the relevance of choice. Then Mush went ahead and said that his computer chess program makes 'choices' as well, which is a funny but valid point. That opens up the problem of defining 'choice.' Does a computer program make choices? Is a computer program a reasonable analogy for the human mind, and the contents thereof? On that token, has anyone read "The Chinese Room" by Searle?
|
mushroomplume
Stranger

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1,395
Last seen: 14 years, 19 days
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7623647 - 11/11/07 09:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I've been thinking about this subject quite a bit this week and my karma thread is pretty much related also.
I'm leaning towards determinism.
For free-will to absolutely exist, we would have to be born with a blank slate. All of our choices our conditioned to the extent that we could never make another choice in a given situation. If you provide a sunflower seed with water, soil, and sun, you get a sunflower. Same with our situations; the water, soil, and sun represent our current conditioning/circumstances and the flower that emerges is the outcome/choice we appear to make.
Edited by oliveplume (11/11/07 09:27 PM)
|
mushroomplume
Stranger

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1,395
Last seen: 14 years, 19 days
|
|
I have a great quote for this topic:
"What happens in a mans life is already written .. a man must move through life as his destiny wills ... yet each man is free to live his life as he chooses .. ... though both are opposites both are true?"
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
|
Here's a little exerpt from a paper I wrote a year ago, for the sake of defining terms and making sure we're on the same page as far as what we're talking about:
Determinism states that all actions are caused by prior events and carries with it the implication that everything that happens is simply the logical culmination of all prior factors, and therefore must happen. Upon examining this theory, one must wonder if determinism and free will are compatible concepts. A Soft Determinist, such as Stace would argue that if free will is defined correctly we will see that they are indeed compatible. Soft determinism defines a free act as one that is determined by the desires, thoughts and emotions of an agent and that an unfree act is one for which the determining factors are exterior motivations that constitute coercion, compulsion or constraint. They believe an agent’s desires are determined by a causal chain of events but that they are still free because there was no explicit force or neurosis constraining the agent’s ability to choose otherwise.
The Hard Determinist posits a theory of incompatibilism. He accepts the “truth” of determinism and thus is of the opinion that free will must not be possible. If determinism is true than an agent is motivated only by prior conditions, and is not capable of acting in any manner other than they do. They are bound by their heredity and environmental conditions, and there are no “spontaneous inner changes of course.” (Skinner.)
The Libertarian agrees with the hard determinist on the matter of incompatibility but cannot discard the possibility of human freedom. She finds both the hard and the soft determinist positions insufficient and seeks to discover where a free act may be located. He accepts that many things are causally determined, but not that they must always be.
|
SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
|
|
Definitely have free will. Although, it might be that we have tendencies towards certain choices. I have been noticing a lot lately certain synchronizations that point towards the concept that we *plan* our lives before we incarnate. ALso, after much meditation on the notion of *time*, I have come to certain understandings of its nature that allow for a loose determinism to exist.
--------------------
   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
|
SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: SoY]
#7623789 - 11/11/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I agree that all events are the logical culmination of prior events, but the unknown variable is free will. At any moment we can interject in any way we deem necessary and change the snowballing butterfly effect of expression that is reality.
--------------------
   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
|
SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: SoY]
#7623808 - 11/11/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
It's like the domino effect. The universe is going along, doing it's thing like a bunch of dominoes continually falling on each other, but free will is our ability to add or remove dominoes at certain junctures along the way...
--------------------
   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7623809 - 11/11/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I lean towards compatibilism, or soft determinism. That is, free will actually requires a certain degree of determinism. I am free to choose anything, but that choice is informed by what I perceive to be the best option for me, which is in turn influenced by my background. The way I see it, it is futile and meaningless to speculate about whether things could or could not have gone differently. We are stuck with what has transpired. An act is fee if it is not done under the compulsion of another person, regardless of whether it could have happened differently. Since the laws of the universe are not people, it is wrong to conclude that universal determinism means we are not free. We are free to act in the manner we choose, even if that choice is influenced by stuff that happened to us in the past.
--------------------
|
SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Silversoul]
#7623815 - 11/11/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7624515 - 11/12/07 04:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: ... Soft determinism defines a free act as one that is determined by the desires, thoughts and emotions of an agent and that an unfree act is one for which the determining factors are exterior motivations that constitute coercion, compulsion or constraint. They believe an agent’s desires are determined by a causal chain of events but that they are still free because there was no explicit force or neurosis constraining the agent’s ability to choose otherwise.
The Hard Determinist posits a theory of incompatibilism. He accepts the “truth” of determinism and thus is of the opinion that free will must not be possible. If determinism is true than an agent is motivated only by prior conditions, and is not capable of acting in any manner other than they do. They are bound by their heredity and environmental conditions, and there are no “spontaneous inner changes of course.” (Skinner.)
The Libertarian agrees with the hard determinist on the matter of incompatibility but cannot discard the possibility of human freedom. She finds both the hard and the soft determinist positions insufficient and seeks to discover where a free act may be located. He accepts that many things are causally determined, but not that they must always be.
I would have to be libertarian. thoughts and desires and emotions are associative replay (Skinner would be happy with me here). however, we also have a prefrontal cortex with which we can examine our life stream at a meta level. very complex and variable combinations are layered together in this meta thought arena. the mind can see accross time spans and choices can be made outside of predictible contexts. these choices are where we excercise our freedom. here is where we steer ourselves into new courses. occasionally we are here and make wise spontaneous decisions as well. usually we operate as if in an automated dream program ignoring the complexity and forgoing sponteneity
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
|
I'd have to say a bit of both. Life puts us in certain situations, and then it is up to us of how to deal with that situation.
|
psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7624752 - 11/12/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
All things in life occur because certain conditions are present for them to occur. Without these conditions it does not occur. Because all conditions are intimately connected, there is essentially no thing that occurs independently on its own.
However, thats only one side of the truth. The other side is of course we have free will! I have changed my life completely a few times based on changes in my perception. But you see, the changes in perception is a condition with information as a requirement. The fact I found that specific piece of information was not purely random either. It required searching for it. It also required my concepts and ideas about it. All of these things were already present, which lead me to this piece of information, which changed my perception, which changed how I live my life.
So the answer, is somewhere between yes and no. Conventionally, yes we have free will. Ultimately, of course not! Nothing happens on its own, nothing has an inherent self, all things are emergent phenomena based on particular conditions.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: psyka]
#7625236 - 11/12/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
What if, in the depths of our brain, seemingly random quantum effects lead to the 'spontaneous' fireing of certain nerve-cells ? Couldn't that be considered as 'free' ?
I think the probabilistic model has removed much of the linear certainty of Newton and the predictable/deterministic model of his time.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7625343 - 11/12/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I would like to add that hard determinism seems incompatible with the effort we put into things. If the laws of the universe coerce us into doing all the things we do, then how come we have to put so much effort into them? It seems that if I'm coerced by the universe to do something, then there would be nothing holding me back from doing it. And yet, that clearly is not the case, as we've all experienced things which required great effort and willpower. All that effort and willpower is a result of choice. That choice may not be the beginning of the chain of events, but it is a free choice nonetheless.
--------------------
|
Bard
Ultrahuman


Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 172
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7625346 - 11/12/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Free will means, that we are free to do what we want. Animals and plants are just robots... Thats the difference.
Humans are robots too, but they are what we can describe with the words: "artificial intelligence". Programs with free will. Who can, for example modify their own code.
-------------------- So dreaming let's you know reality exists.
I don't belive. I fear.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Bard]
#7625361 - 11/12/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bard said: Free will means, that we are free to do what we want. Animals and plants are just robots... Thats the difference.
How do you know animals don't have free will? It seems that they make choices just like the rest of us.
--------------------
|
Bard
Ultrahuman


Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 172
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Silversoul]
#7625418 - 11/12/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I don't know... Maybe they do have free will... But if they don't, then the difference is what I was saying... It doesn't matter whether certain individuals have free will or not, it's the meaning of the "free will" what I'm talking about...
I should have kept to computer programs in my argument...
-------------------- So dreaming let's you know reality exists.
I don't belive. I fear.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: Silversoul]
#7625457 - 11/12/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Silversoul said: I would like to add that hard determinism seems incompatible with the effort we put into things. If the laws of the universe coerce us into doing all the things we do, then how come we have to put so much effort into them? It seems that if I'm coerced by the universe to do something, then there would be nothing holding me back from doing it.
Huh? Why WOULDN'T we have to put effort into them? I don't understand your argument. What does effort have to do with free will? It takes a lot of 'effort' for a plane to become airborne, but that doesn't make it free.
Quote:
And yet, that clearly is not the case, as we've all experienced things which required great effort and willpower. All that effort and willpower is a result of choice. That choice may not be the beginning of the chain of events, but it is a free choice nonetheless.
It takes a lot of processing power to run many modern video games - effort doesn't make anything more or less free.
|
jackeheart
JackHeart


Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will vs. determinism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7625614 - 11/12/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
A lot of great points. I like the description of Soft vs Hard Determinism. Great post NiamhNyx
This is another one of those issues that there is probably no black or white way of looking at it. I tend to think that what we call determinism is just our limitations of what we have free will over. we can control my body to an extent, but we can not move the sun...yet. Overall though I think (getting spiritual here) that the Universe can be likened to a machine, but that machine is very beautiful in its own growth. Reminds me of the Futurama Episode where Bender Meets god in space. (which coincidently was on last night on Adult Swim....F%#$K coincidences.)
Also, in response to what SoY wrote about about planning our lives before we live them, you should read the Seth Speaks series by Jane Roberts. Its all about that, and has a lot to do with Determinism vs Free will.
-------------------- What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being. The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable. There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations. And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths. Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I would have to be libertarian. thoughts and desires and emotions are associative replay (Skinner would be happy with me here). however, we also have a prefrontal cortex with which we can examine our life stream at a meta level. very complex and variable combinations are layered together in this meta thought arena. the mind can see accross time spans and choices can be made outside of predictible contexts. these choices are where we excercise our freedom. here is where we steer ourselves into new courses. occasionally we are here and make wise spontaneous decisions as well. usually we operate as if in an automated dream program ignoring the complexity and forgoing sponteneity
I have to add, that the prefrontal cortex allows us to examine thoughts, desires and emotions and pull them out of patterns of associative replay, and this is largely a matter of will. One can choose to confront one's emotions and habits and change them. I see this as being a point at which free will comes into play. Although I suppose Stace would tear me apart on this one.
|
|