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OrgoneConclusion
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Supporting the troops, but against the war?
#7622219 - 11/11/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let's try to keep this more about morality and not stray too far into politics.
To me this stance seems like timid waffling. What is your view?
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Silversoul
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7622284 - 11/11/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's something I personally struggle with. I have several friends who are fighting in Iraq right now, so it bothers me when people disrespect the troops. At the same time, I don't agree with the reason they're over there, and wish we would pull out of that country. I guess for me "supporting" the troops is just a matter of praying for their safety and well-being. I'm not sure where I would stand if the war hadn't taken on such a personal dimension for me. I realize there is no military draft right, so the soldiers are all responsible for being there. Most of my friends who are over there joined for financial reasons. A couple of them do actually support the political objectives of the war, so I can't just portray them as victims of circumstance. What I can say is I know all of them, even those whose politics I disagree with, are good people, and pray that they all return home safely.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622298 - 11/11/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I guess for me "supporting" the troops is just a matter of praying for their safety and well-being.
And too bad about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed?
Quote:
What I can say is I know all of them, even those whose politics I disagree with, are good people...
I suppose because they had friends and were likable to some, that those working the Holocaust ovens were good people, too.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7622308 - 11/11/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
And too bad about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed?
Of course not. I pray for peace every day. I wish you would stop putting words in people's mouths.
Quote:
I suppose because they had friends and were likable to some, that those working the Holocaust ovens were good people, too.
It appears Godwin has reared his ugly head early in this thread. If you would kindly avoid such straw men, I'd prefer to have a civil discussion for once.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7622309 - 11/11/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Let's try to keep this more about morality and not stray too far into politics.
To me this stance seems like timid waffling. What is your view?
The troops made the choice to support the war by going. It's their business now. They get my support through my tax dollars and that's all they need from me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/11/07 02:53 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622339 - 11/11/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course not. I pray for peace every day. I wish you would stop putting words in people's mouths.
A question is not a quote.
What is the point in wishing and praying? Reality does not bend to mere internal thoughts.
Supporting a warrior AND praying for peace seems highly schizophrenic to this poster.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7622347 - 11/11/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Would you prefer I cut off all ties to them and turn a blind eye to them should they be killed or wounded?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622349 - 11/11/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why not?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7622353 - 11/11/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Because they're my friends, and I still care about them.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622363 - 11/11/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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One should choose their friends wisely.
I have no friends that support violence when not in self defense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7622365 - 11/11/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I guess I'm not one to believe that believing the same things is a prerequisite of friendship.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622369 - 11/11/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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When it comes to violence and harm to others I am. Your choice.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7622377 - 11/11/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, considering it's currently an occupation trying to stabilize the region(or so they've been led to believe), I don't think it's so much a matter of supporting aggressive violence. And like I said, most of them just signed up for financial reasons.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622389 - 11/11/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Many decades ago, a good friend started some shit in a bar. He was being an asshole and got in over his head. I refused to back him up merely because he was a friend.
Had he been jumped merely getting onto his car, I would have been by his side.
Another lifelong friend turned out to be a pedophile. I supported him through the trial and subsequent jail time because he made an effort to turn his life around. When got out and started rebuilding homes, I visited him for a week. Then he started cruising the junior high and I ended a 25 year friendship.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7622399 - 11/11/07 03:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If my friends showed signs of bloodlust, I might take your point to heart. But of all the friends I have who are serving, they are at worst naive about what their government tells them, and at best trying to make a living when they have nothing else going for them.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622736 - 11/11/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree Silversoul. Many of these soldiers are so naive about what they are doing that they are no better than children in their understanding, and they are manipulated by their government who they were programmed to trust. Sometimes that programming falls through, and the person starts to take responsibility for themselves, but usally it is a gradual and grudging process. I served as an infantryman in the Army myself and I was very naive. I was so invested in my beliefs that it took another 20 years to accept that I had been wrong about many of them. I used to preach that people should accept responsibility for their actions, and I judged those that in my estimation did not, but I have come to understand that we can only be where we are at, so many people are left unable to accept responsibility. They are not bad or evil...just unable to grow beyond a certain point at that time. Some people realize this about themselves...others never do. For myself I sympathize and wish these people well, but I do not support their actions.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7622746 - 11/11/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't see compassion as a conditional thing. I don't have to agree with another person, but it is in my best interests to see all other people with compassion and understanding.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Diploid
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7622912 - 11/11/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I pray for peace every day.
Peace will come to the Earth if the human players making war decide to make it so. If God intervenes and brings peace to the Earth, he must necessarily change the human players.
What happens then to the free will most believers (and you, I think) insist God has given us?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7622950 - 11/11/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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To be fair to SS's friends, signing up for military service in pre-Bush days would well have been with the then-justified belief that the US military was primarily a defensive force.
Bush changed the rules in the middle of that game and I think a lot of the soldiers currently deployed in offensive struggles never counted on that.
Of course, they still could have refused to go participate in what they believe to be an unjust offensive war and taken their lumps in a military prison.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7622980 - 11/11/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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A lot of people who end up in the military are looking for a way out of extreme poverty. They are uneducated and thus easily manipulated. They believe patriotic propaganda because that's all they've been exposed to. I can't hate someone for being in that sort of position, and on those grounds I think I can "support the troops and be against the war."
Although at the same time, it annoys me when people get all snivelly about the US losing 2 or 3 soldiers in a battle against insurgents, when the Iraqi's have lost thousands of people, both fighters and civilians. They have had to endure an incredible amount of suffering, far beyond the loss of a few professional killers. The war is on thier soil, and if anyone deserves compassion it is them.
I suppose any support I might have for "the troops" lies in the fact that I don't think they should be over there. They wouldn't get shot if they were at home with thier families where they belong.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7623017 - 11/11/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are no expendable people...regardless of where they are born.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7623254 - 11/11/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course, they still could have refused to go participate in what they believe to be an unjust offensive war and taken their lumps in a military prison.
I volunteered for miltary service, then realized that I was part of a war machine that was not in the best interest of humanity-at-large and refused to participate. It was the toughest thing I ever did to face down a powerful organization like the US Navy and have my life threatened (among other things). One year after I started, I was honorably discharged with Conscientious Objector status.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7624370 - 11/12/07 01:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
supporting the troops, but against the war?
Obviously a blatant contradiction. If the war is unjust then our soldiers occupation in the middle east is unjust, their fighting is unjust, and their death is well deserved in my opinion. I do not support America or it's troops.
Noone is obligated to surrender their minds to American democracy. Noone is obligated to surrender their opinions to American policy. Being a "patriot" really isn't even the issue. The issue is just or unjust, and it's time for people to start thinking outside of the box they have allowed themselves to be crammed into. Life is bigger than America, or democracy, or politics, or even the universe.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7624394 - 11/12/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And another thing. Ignorance is no excuse. It's simply not. It means something, but in the end, when people have right attitudes, they do good with the information they have, and it leads them in the right direction, and on to further enlightenment. When people have bad hearts, it leads them into further ignorance. It what you do with the knowledge you have that makes the difference. And everyone is responsible for their actions, especially when you take it upon yourself to join an institution which takes upon itself the responsibility to save and destroy life.
And hearing about people signing up for the money is so infuriating. I admit, I was tempted for a moment myself. But it's just so rotten, and I wish people would have some integrity, and have enough to say no to those who make these rotten choices, to say no you've gone too far, and my resepect for human life and justice cannot allow me to take sides with you any more. Every time a finger pulls a trigger in Iraq, remember there is a person, who makes choices and is accountable for their actions.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7624568 - 11/12/07 05:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
And hearing about people signing up for the money is so infuriating
In my opinion criticizing others for any life choice they make is a demonstration of lack of compassion. People are often driven to things you may not understand for reasons that you cannot accept. Until you have stood in their shoes judging them is pointless and injurious to the self. You don't have to agree with them or prefer their company, but not exercising compassion is a denial of what is.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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psyka
Praetorian


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Posts: 1,652
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7624734 - 11/12/07 07:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just want to say as a side-note to your very clear argument here. Peace starts within. "Prayer" doesn't have to be an esoteric exercise, but an exercise to change ones perception of how the world is seen. Peace starts within.
Your inquiry is very interesting, and there really is no way to give a one sided answer towards it. How would you define morals in a concrete fashion, OrgoneConclusion? To use your pedophile example: back in early 1900's, it wasn't uncommon for 14,15, and 16 year olds to get married to 30 year olds and start a family. If a man has sexual relations with a 14 year old, is it pedophilia? Or is the notion pedophilia (and morals, in general) based on dogmatic personal views on life?
You're asking for a one-sided answer to a multi-faceted concept.
Some people are drafted to war, some people go for future opportunity, some people go because of their own ignorance, some people go for early retirement. All of these things do not make a person bad, and not worthy of peaceful support. Condemning the troops really does not add anything to a resolution, and neither does all-out support. The issue is deep rooted and has to do with the concept of ownership. The same reason people value their possessions, accumulate wealth and resources, and condemn others, is the same reason why people take up arms and go to war. It has nothing to do with belief's... it has to do with not seeing things as they are: completely impersonal.
It is because we crave for things pleasing to the eye, nose, ear, mouth, body, and mind that we go through life clinging to impermanent objects and desiring to find an antitode for our inherent dissatisfaction. However, because all worldly things are impermanent, there is no external cure. The cure comes with complete, loving, and clear acceptance of the present moment.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: psyka]
#7625181 - 11/12/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Between friends/family/acquaintinces, I know several people who are fighting at the moment. A few were enlisted prior to the petrol conquest but most joined during our activities, usually on the grounds of not having opportunistic options available elsewhere - no job skills, no money, etc. The military preys upon this demographic to fill their ranks. Recruiters lie to and cheat their recruits. The brainwashing that takes place is very effective, I think in part to the way in which the military fulfills many human tendencies; the 'need 'for purpose, structure, and direction; belonging to and serving something greater than oneself, pleasing authority/superiors, etc. For some, a great deal of existential anxiety can be dodged by filling a role where one simply does what they are told and there is no room for critical thinking or disobedience. People find comfort in that.
It amazes me to see how much it has changed people I know. Most have varying degrees if psychological injury.
The notion that I 'should' support our troops on the basis that they are protecting my freedom and ensuring my safety is abhorrent. My participation in the national economy is more support than I'd ideally give them and they should be happy with that. I didn't put them there, why the fuck am I obligated to support them?
Our government is the greatest threat to our freedom - actually no longer a threat as they have done away with it long ago - and as far as my safety is concerned, I have no doubt that the likelihood of me being attacked by a terrorist is a far cry less than it is being gassed, clubbed, and rubber bulleted at a protest.
That said though, as long as the world is divided by nationalism, which it always will be, the overpowering bully (US as of now) will always exist. Many a nation would fill the role given the opportunity and it could be a lot worse if it wasn't us.
Quote:
psyka said: The cure comes with complete, loving, and clear acceptance of the present moment.
I wonder how an Iraqi kid who saw his parents catch a few rouge USA rounds would feel about that 'cure'.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7625217 - 11/12/07 11:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
In my opinion criticizing others for any life choice they make is a demonstration of lack of compassion. People are often driven to things you may not understand for reasons that you cannot accept. Until you have stood in their shoes judging them is pointless and injurious to the self. You don't have to agree with them or prefer their company, but not exercising compassion is a denial of what is.
I think Your opinion is flawed. The idea that we must experience every heartache and challenge in another persons life to understand the implication of their choices or understand their behaviour is false. I can sympathize on one hand, so far as to recognize that I have made rotten choices in my life, and I have sought mercy, and so I would be merciful to others. But on the other hand, the act of going over to fight in the war in Iraq for the money is just utterly rotten to the core. And your understanding of the word judge seems to be out of place. I havn't judged anyone. And I have a God given right, which is really unavoidable, to make discernments, to voice my opinion, and to stand for what I believe, whether to agree or dissent .
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7625438 - 11/12/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'd like to add that for me, not only is it about compassion, but also open-mindedness. I haven't been over there. I don't know what it's like. I have formed my views based on the news I've heard here at home, but maybe I don't know everything. When those friends of mine come back home from the war, what kind of stories will they have? Will the Iraq that they've experienced be different from the one I've seen on TV? Maybe, maybe not. In keeping with my recent devotion to uncertainty, I'll try not to make up my mind before I have all the facts.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7625518 - 11/12/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Everyone's story will be different. You will never have 'all the facts'.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7625556 - 11/12/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Exactly.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Grok]
#7625577 - 11/12/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Excellent post, Grok.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7625586 - 11/12/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good thread. Good stories.
Soldiers, as naive as some of them may be, know one thing. They are trained killers.
If they have a problem with that, they shouldn't do it.
And if I have a problem with that, I shouldn't support them.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Rose]
#7625610 - 11/12/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I thought being a soldier was about doing push-ups and having some disgruntled (props to Hue) middle-aged sargeant cursing you out from one-inch away as his spittle lands on your face and you resist the urge to punch him. Eventually this abuse makes you feel all warm and patriotic and ready to kill evil third-world peoples.
The Few, The Proud, The Brainwashed.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Rose]
#7625871 - 11/12/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
If they have a problem with that, they shouldn't do it.
I used to be one, but I never saw myself that way. I wanted to help people and experience some adventure as backwards as that sounds. In any case, I wasn't mature enough to know what a trained killer is.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7625918 - 11/12/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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What do you charge for a standard 'hit' these days?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7626226 - 11/12/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I need a deposit of 10 grand and then we'll talk.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626240 - 11/12/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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With the devalued dollar and rising gas prices, that'll get you almost a tank of gas.
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Silversoul
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626246 - 11/12/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just wondering: For those here who are dissing the troops, are you a pacifist, or do you recognize that war is sometimes necessary(even if the current war isn't)? Do your criticisms of the troops today apply equally to the troops who fought Germany in WWII? Certainly many more German families lost loved ones in that war than the Americans did.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7626258 - 11/12/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, the catalytic converter on my car went out so I am hard up for the cash to get it fixed.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7626279 - 11/12/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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War, though a stupid waste of life, is sometimes necessary to protect humans from each others stupidity. Right now the US is who most people in the world are threatened by and need protecting from. Humans are creatures of aggression and we may never grow beyond our fear, but I accept that about humanity and myself. As for myself, I don't want to harm anything or anyone unnecessarily.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626290 - 11/12/07 03:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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But when necessary...
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7626314 - 11/12/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does needing a catalytic converter qualify as necessary conditions?
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7626470 - 11/12/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Well, considering it's currently an occupation trying to stabilize the region(or so they've been led to believe), I don't think it's so much a matter of supporting aggressive violence. And like I said, most of them just signed up for financial reasons.
Stabilize the region. That's rich. Who do you think de-stabilized it?
So if I become a hit-man for financial reasons it's OK?
You are doing a pretty awesome job of rationalizing something that IMO is really nasty.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7626481 - 11/12/07 04:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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As long as you only kill bad guys...
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7626495 - 11/12/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: To be fair to SS's friends, signing up for military service in pre-Bush days would well have been with the then-justified belief that the US military was primarily a defensive force.
Bush changed the rules in the middle of that game and I think a lot of the soldiers currently deployed in offensive struggles never counted on that.
Of course, they still could have refused to go participate in what they believe to be an unjust offensive war and taken their lumps in a military prison.
It's pretty naive to believe that our military plays a defensive role in the world even in the pre bush days. Oh yeah, I forgot the Viet Cong were in Florida.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626504 - 11/12/07 04:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: There are no expendable people...regardless of where they are born.
Everyone is expendable
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7626564 - 11/12/07 04:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe the universe doesn't give a fuck, but I was expressing my opinion. So, in my opinion there are no expendable people. Viewing lives as such leads to treating others in that fashion.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626761 - 11/12/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Viewing lives as such leads to treating others in that fashion.
For you maybe but please speak for yourself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7626797 - 11/12/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Uh oh, sounds like a battle a-brewing.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7626800 - 11/12/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe it is not universal, but I observe that type of behavior all around me every day. Most people I have met exhibit a total lack of respect for all life. The value of life is given only lip service in our society. Maybe ultimately nothing matters, but I define what matters to me. However these are my observations as you pointed out.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626805 - 11/12/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe it is not universal, but I observe that type of behavior all around me every day.
You live in Kentucky.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7626821 - 11/12/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You live in Kentucky. 
Isn't that the place where the Bublical Creation Museum lives? Where they insist that that world is 6,000 years old and baby dinosaurs rode in Noah's ark?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7626832 - 11/12/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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No Kentucky = no KFC.
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7626843 - 11/12/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: You live in Kentucky. 
Isn't that the place where the Bublical Creation Museum lives? Where they insist that that world is 6,000 years old and baby dinosaurs rode in Noah's ark?
I hear they have displays with folk riding on dinosaurs. So I guess it must be true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Icelander]
#7627177 - 11/12/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I hear they have displays with folk riding on dinosaurs. So I guess it must be true.
Sad but true. I think that many of the Bible thumpers regard episodes of The Flintstones as a historical reenactment.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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undergrounder
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7628242 - 11/12/07 10:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I haven't read the thread.
I agree with the fact that in order to protect our way of life from attack we need a military force and i respect soldiers for doing an incredible tough job.
I hate 'the war' (being Iraq) because there were no adequate reasons for going into it. War is a last resort, as in last, not second last, last - when all other options have been closed.
So obviously i'd have preferred the soldiers never gotten into this war, let alone the hundreds of thousands that will die because of it. I support the troops because they have to follow orders, i don't support the policy-makers or the president.
I see nothing wrong with that position.
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RIP Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
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Icelander
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: undergrounder]
#7629531 - 11/13/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I support the troops because they have to follow orders,
Illogical Will Robbins. Proven by those soldiers who choose to disobey orders in Viet Nam thereby speeding a withdrawal of troops, ending of the war and peace "with honor"
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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