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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7623017 - 11/11/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are no expendable people...regardless of where they are born.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Diploid]
#7623254 - 11/11/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course, they still could have refused to go participate in what they believe to be an unjust offensive war and taken their lumps in a military prison.
I volunteered for miltary service, then realized that I was part of a war machine that was not in the best interest of humanity-at-large and refused to participate. It was the toughest thing I ever did to face down a powerful organization like the US Navy and have my life threatened (among other things). One year after I started, I was honorably discharged with Conscientious Objector status.
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7624370 - 11/12/07 01:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
supporting the troops, but against the war?
Obviously a blatant contradiction. If the war is unjust then our soldiers occupation in the middle east is unjust, their fighting is unjust, and their death is well deserved in my opinion. I do not support America or it's troops.
Noone is obligated to surrender their minds to American democracy. Noone is obligated to surrender their opinions to American policy. Being a "patriot" really isn't even the issue. The issue is just or unjust, and it's time for people to start thinking outside of the box they have allowed themselves to be crammed into. Life is bigger than America, or democracy, or politics, or even the universe.
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7624394 - 11/12/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And another thing. Ignorance is no excuse. It's simply not. It means something, but in the end, when people have right attitudes, they do good with the information they have, and it leads them in the right direction, and on to further enlightenment. When people have bad hearts, it leads them into further ignorance. It what you do with the knowledge you have that makes the difference. And everyone is responsible for their actions, especially when you take it upon yourself to join an institution which takes upon itself the responsibility to save and destroy life.
And hearing about people signing up for the money is so infuriating. I admit, I was tempted for a moment myself. But it's just so rotten, and I wish people would have some integrity, and have enough to say no to those who make these rotten choices, to say no you've gone too far, and my resepect for human life and justice cannot allow me to take sides with you any more. Every time a finger pulls a trigger in Iraq, remember there is a person, who makes choices and is accountable for their actions.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7624568 - 11/12/07 05:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
And hearing about people signing up for the money is so infuriating
In my opinion criticizing others for any life choice they make is a demonstration of lack of compassion. People are often driven to things you may not understand for reasons that you cannot accept. Until you have stood in their shoes judging them is pointless and injurious to the self. You don't have to agree with them or prefer their company, but not exercising compassion is a denial of what is.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7624734 - 11/12/07 07:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just want to say as a side-note to your very clear argument here. Peace starts within. "Prayer" doesn't have to be an esoteric exercise, but an exercise to change ones perception of how the world is seen. Peace starts within.
Your inquiry is very interesting, and there really is no way to give a one sided answer towards it. How would you define morals in a concrete fashion, OrgoneConclusion? To use your pedophile example: back in early 1900's, it wasn't uncommon for 14,15, and 16 year olds to get married to 30 year olds and start a family. If a man has sexual relations with a 14 year old, is it pedophilia? Or is the notion pedophilia (and morals, in general) based on dogmatic personal views on life?
You're asking for a one-sided answer to a multi-faceted concept.
Some people are drafted to war, some people go for future opportunity, some people go because of their own ignorance, some people go for early retirement. All of these things do not make a person bad, and not worthy of peaceful support. Condemning the troops really does not add anything to a resolution, and neither does all-out support. The issue is deep rooted and has to do with the concept of ownership. The same reason people value their possessions, accumulate wealth and resources, and condemn others, is the same reason why people take up arms and go to war. It has nothing to do with belief's... it has to do with not seeing things as they are: completely impersonal.
It is because we crave for things pleasing to the eye, nose, ear, mouth, body, and mind that we go through life clinging to impermanent objects and desiring to find an antitode for our inherent dissatisfaction. However, because all worldly things are impermanent, there is no external cure. The cure comes with complete, loving, and clear acceptance of the present moment.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy



Registered: 12/03/03
Posts: 1,262
Loc: Greener Pastures
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: psyka]
#7625181 - 11/12/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Between friends/family/acquaintinces, I know several people who are fighting at the moment. A few were enlisted prior to the petrol conquest but most joined during our activities, usually on the grounds of not having opportunistic options available elsewhere - no job skills, no money, etc. The military preys upon this demographic to fill their ranks. Recruiters lie to and cheat their recruits. The brainwashing that takes place is very effective, I think in part to the way in which the military fulfills many human tendencies; the 'need 'for purpose, structure, and direction; belonging to and serving something greater than oneself, pleasing authority/superiors, etc. For some, a great deal of existential anxiety can be dodged by filling a role where one simply does what they are told and there is no room for critical thinking or disobedience. People find comfort in that.
It amazes me to see how much it has changed people I know. Most have varying degrees if psychological injury.
The notion that I 'should' support our troops on the basis that they are protecting my freedom and ensuring my safety is abhorrent. My participation in the national economy is more support than I'd ideally give them and they should be happy with that. I didn't put them there, why the fuck am I obligated to support them?
Our government is the greatest threat to our freedom - actually no longer a threat as they have done away with it long ago - and as far as my safety is concerned, I have no doubt that the likelihood of me being attacked by a terrorist is a far cry less than it is being gassed, clubbed, and rubber bulleted at a protest.
That said though, as long as the world is divided by nationalism, which it always will be, the overpowering bully (US as of now) will always exist. Many a nation would fill the role given the opportunity and it could be a lot worse if it wasn't us.
Quote:
psyka said: The cure comes with complete, loving, and clear acceptance of the present moment.
I wonder how an Iraqi kid who saw his parents catch a few rouge USA rounds would feel about that 'cure'.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7625217 - 11/12/07 11:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
In my opinion criticizing others for any life choice they make is a demonstration of lack of compassion. People are often driven to things you may not understand for reasons that you cannot accept. Until you have stood in their shoes judging them is pointless and injurious to the self. You don't have to agree with them or prefer their company, but not exercising compassion is a denial of what is.
I think Your opinion is flawed. The idea that we must experience every heartache and challenge in another persons life to understand the implication of their choices or understand their behaviour is false. I can sympathize on one hand, so far as to recognize that I have made rotten choices in my life, and I have sought mercy, and so I would be merciful to others. But on the other hand, the act of going over to fight in the war in Iraq for the money is just utterly rotten to the core. And your understanding of the word judge seems to be out of place. I havn't judged anyone. And I have a God given right, which is really unavoidable, to make discernments, to voice my opinion, and to stand for what I believe, whether to agree or dissent .
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7625438 - 11/12/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'd like to add that for me, not only is it about compassion, but also open-mindedness. I haven't been over there. I don't know what it's like. I have formed my views based on the news I've heard here at home, but maybe I don't know everything. When those friends of mine come back home from the war, what kind of stories will they have? Will the Iraq that they've experienced be different from the one I've seen on TV? Maybe, maybe not. In keeping with my recent devotion to uncertainty, I'll try not to make up my mind before I have all the facts.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7625518 - 11/12/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Everyone's story will be different. You will never have 'all the facts'.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7625556 - 11/12/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Exactly.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Grok]
#7625577 - 11/12/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Excellent post, Grok.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Silversoul]
#7625586 - 11/12/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good thread. Good stories.
Soldiers, as naive as some of them may be, know one thing. They are trained killers.
If they have a problem with that, they shouldn't do it.
And if I have a problem with that, I shouldn't support them.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Rose]
#7625610 - 11/12/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I thought being a soldier was about doing push-ups and having some disgruntled (props to Hue) middle-aged sargeant cursing you out from one-inch away as his spittle lands on your face and you resist the urge to punch him. Eventually this abuse makes you feel all warm and patriotic and ready to kill evil third-world peoples.
The Few, The Proud, The Brainwashed.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Rose]
#7625871 - 11/12/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
If they have a problem with that, they shouldn't do it.
I used to be one, but I never saw myself that way. I wanted to help people and experience some adventure as backwards as that sounds. In any case, I wasn't mature enough to know what a trained killer is.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7625918 - 11/12/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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What do you charge for a standard 'hit' these days?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7626226 - 11/12/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I need a deposit of 10 grand and then we'll talk.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626240 - 11/12/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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With the devalued dollar and rising gas prices, that'll get you almost a tank of gas.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7626246 - 11/12/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just wondering: For those here who are dissing the troops, are you a pacifist, or do you recognize that war is sometimes necessary(even if the current war isn't)? Do your criticisms of the troops today apply equally to the troops who fought Germany in WWII? Certainly many more German families lost loved ones in that war than the Americans did.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Supporting the troops, but against the war? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7626258 - 11/12/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, the catalytic converter on my car went out so I am hard up for the cash to get it fixed.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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