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Hefe
a steamy cog_shit


Registered: 05/19/03
Posts: 1,305
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Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism
#7618549 - 11/10/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey all. How do you feel that Marx' approach to historical materialism informs his critique of capitalism? Do you feel it is still relevant for understanding modern capitalism?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Hefe]
#7618553 - 11/10/07 12:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I feel good about it. That's how I feel. Really, really good. I just loved him and his brothers. Those movies helped me to be happy.
Try the political forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/10/07 12:28 PM)
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Hefe]
#7618573 - 11/10/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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No one here knows a damn thing about Marx... or anyone that isn't a pop-culture icon.
This question sounds like a paper topic though, do you want us to write your paper for you? Give us some more to work with here...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7618640 - 11/10/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: or anyone that isn't a pop-culture icon.
You're getting bitter already. There is hope for you yet.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Icelander]
#7618670 - 11/10/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's true, but my bitterness is mostly tongue in cheek. I'm not really cynical at all, just a cranky egotist.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7618692 - 11/10/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well I will keep picking and poking and baiting you until you get it right.
I like the coyote.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Icelander]
#7618704 - 11/10/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I like Coyote too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7618772 - 11/10/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Watch out, he might be after you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Icelander]
#7619220 - 11/10/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Leave the poor coyote out of this, damned !
Trickster, thief, fool..what else comes to mind of a misunderstanding human ?  Whatever...

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7619333 - 11/10/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Someones got the blues.
I have great respect for the coyote. I live in their territory and they sometimes enter my town for some good garbage.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Icelander]
#7619402 - 11/10/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I got stuck in the desert with no water (DON'T ASK!) I was terribly dehydrated (doh!) after hiking for many hours in 116F temps. Up and down endless ravines trying to make it to Lake Mead. A coyote was following the whole way hoping for a sawami sandwich. When I got to the top of each ravine he would be one ravine beind me; just watching and waiting - the little opportunistic bastard.
BTW, I was suprised to hear him bark like a dog.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7619408 - 11/10/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Knowing Coyotes I doubt he was waiting for you to drop but was most likely transfixed as he had never seen a clown before.
They do bark and like to eat dogs.
In the old days of Yellowstone (when I went there ) there was no wolves as they had killed them all off. (of course they wouldn't admit to this and perpetuated a rumor that they still roamed the park.) Most ignorant tourists assumed the howling at night was wolves and would go home telling everyone how they had heard the mighty wolf.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/10/07 04:17 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: Icelander]
#7619420 - 11/10/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The hiking was extra hard wearing flippers...
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7619432 - 11/10/07 04:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ice, Orgone... you guys are the undisputed champions of totally derailing threads. Congratulations!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7619662 - 11/10/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So what do I win? I know you already told me a date was out of the question. Got any nice weapons or computer shit?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Karl Marx' Materialism as it relates to Capitalism [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7620008 - 11/10/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: No one here knows a damn thing about Marx...
I studied Marx in my sociology courses. However, the better part of education is retention, which I haven't been so good at. But I'll try to address the topic as best I can.
In Marx's own words, "it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence that determines their consciousness." Essentially, he is advocating a deterministic view of history based on the socio-economic circumstances of the time. Capitalism was a natural outgrowth of feudalism, as the bourgeoisie became more numerous and powerful, and rose up above their aristocratic rulers and became the dominant class. So too, according to his theory, would the proletariat rise up against the bourgeoisie, and establish a socialist state, which would eventually result in communism. Thus, for Marx, Communism was not only a good idea, but is in fact inevitable, as circumstances became more and more grim for the proletariat.
Now, for my criticism: The first major challenge to this theory came with the rise of the welfare state. By creating a social safety net, capitalist countries could prevent the proletariat from becoming radicalized. For me, the bigger refutation of his theory can be found in today's pop culture, where poor people can see on television just how luxuriously extravagant rich celebrities are, and not only do they not rise up in anger(as Marx's theory would seem to predict), but they adore these celebrities. I also have a problem with the idea that just because conditions become worse for the proletariat that Marxist socialism is the only way. Other thinkers, such as Henry George and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, have offered alternative visions of a poverty-free society.
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