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ThirdEyeOpening
Lost In My Head




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Ice and water question
#7612194 - 11/08/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, so if you put an ice cube in a glass of water, and it melts, the level of the water after the melt will be lower than before. Due to the air traped inside. So why do most scientists beleve that if the caps melt that we will be flooded.
If the current water in the caps is mixed with air, and they are still putting pressure on the oceans, wont the level drop?
Am i missing something?
And never mind the sea current belts, i know if they were to stop the warm water would stop, ending in the north having colder winters.
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. Im not too sure about the former. -Einstein Of course the rules need to be enforced, but the goal of law and order should be to create a just society, not to enforce laws. -Unknown “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -Stephen Roberts
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PsychedelicPhish
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because unlike the cup, their is no where for the water to go. When the ice caps melt all the water will join into the earth's very large ecosystem. and water levels are already going up world wide
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lbtchnlgs
Feel like a Stranger



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There is a lot of ice. I'm not positive, but the ice camps aren't floating on water so the melted ice water would add to the oceans
Edited by lbtchnlgs (11/08/07 06:04 PM)
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Because the ice is stacked way high above sea level. If you have a cup overflowing with ice with a small amount of water at the bottom, do you think the water level would rise or fall? Thats like the situation on earth.
Also, water has a larger volume when frozen not due to trapped air, but to the shape of the water molecules when frozen.
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Nephlyte
Misfortunate One


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Re: Ice and water question [Re: DieCommie]
#7612874 - 11/08/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Because the ice is stacked way high above sea level. If you have a cup overflowing with ice with a small amount of water at the bottom, do you think the water level would rise or fall? Thats like the situation on earth.
Also, water has a larger volume when frozen not due to trapped air, but to the shape of the water molecules when frozen.
Yup yup. All the ice on top of every mountain range, all the ice on top of canada, all the ice on top of greenland, siberia, and antartica would melt and flow into the ocean.
-------------------- "To do right is to know what you want. Now when you are dissatisfied with yourself it's because you are after something you don't really want. What objects are you proposing to yourself? Are they the objects you really value? If they are not, you are cheating yourself. I don't meant that if you chose to pursue the objects you most value, you will attain them; of course not. Your experience will tell you that. But success in getting after much labor what you really don't care for is the bitterest and most ridiculous failure." -George Santayana
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the man
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Re: Ice and water question [Re: Nephlyte]
#7613029 - 11/08/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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it doesnt matter if frozen ocean melts. what teh problem is is if contentental ice sheets such as greenland and antartica melt because they are not floating and currently not displacing water, when they melt it will add huge volumes of water to the ocean thus raising its level.
dont listen to what those other guys said, unless i am misinterpreting. diecommie might be right just not exactly sure what he meant.
also because of the enormous amount of water in teh oceans if they do warm up. the ocean will actually swell substantially from just being warmer.
-------------------- And Moses Said "Let my mushrooms grow!"
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ThirdEyeOpening
Lost In My Head




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Re: Ice and water question [Re: Nephlyte]
#7613056 - 11/08/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yup yup. All the ice on top of every mountain range, all the ice on top of canada, all the ice on top of greenland, siberia, and antartica would melt and flow into the ocean.
This makes more sence now, my father raseed the question, because he doesnt beleve in global warming. I do, but to the extent that any thing we do, would be 100X less than a volcano.
Quote:
Also, water has a larger volume when frozen not due to trapped air, but to the shape of the water molecules when frozen.
Not to be harsh, but i knew that, its not that it has air in it, but it has to due with density and the crystal structure. Its just air is available to be trapped in the gaps. volume/mass = density (I think =P)
His argument is that, if the caps were to melt only antartica has sizeable ice on land, most other ice, and the North Pole is in the sea, so if they melt would it really raise that much. due to the lesser density?
But i see the argument with the glacers and other ice in canada/siberia/greenland. Lots of water traped there.
Just trying to find ammo to shoot his arguments down, most seem denial based.
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. Im not too sure about the former. -Einstein Of course the rules need to be enforced, but the goal of law and order should be to create a just society, not to enforce laws. -Unknown “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -Stephen Roberts
Edited by ThirdEyeOpening (11/08/07 10:24 PM)
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the man
still masked



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well you need to look at it a bit different. There is no question that our earth has experienced a mean warming in temperture. in the last few decades. thats pretty much undeniable. but what is is why we are experience this warming. the earth naturally goes through cycles of glaciation from teh elepticity of our orbit adn tilt of our spin. 100 000 and 10 000 respectively. we are currently at teh end of a glacial period and a general warming trend is to be expected. but has this been enhaced by our output of Co2? it does seem so but is hard to say. and what one needs to keep in mind is that water is teh absolute strongest greenhouse gas. what happens when we experience warming. well more evaporation and more clouds which shoudl make it hotter if its a potent greenhouse gas right?? well to a point yes but when teh waer vapor forms clouds they becoem white adn actually reflect incomming radiation effectively cooling the planet. not only that but more precipitation weathers silicate rocks which then sequester carbon in ocean sediments.
also keep in mind that climate models are so incorrect. we cant even predict precipitation how can we predict climae. althought we can get very rough ideas. but ther eis so many proccess nvolved it is stagering. also we dont even understand hwo carbon really effects climate because our models say it shoudl be hotter then it is. also teh UN fudges its results to a degree.......... e during teh 1400s it was just as hot if nto hotter then it is now
anyway basically the only problem with climate change is our infrastructure.ocean level rises a meter jsut take a coupel steps back haha. big storms well dont live on teh golf coast. if we went back to being nomads everthing would just be fine. both sides need to be taken with a grain of salt. and the basic idea is dont over use and reduce polution to keep the biosphere healthy so it can keep our climate healthy. and if you argue that then i think most people cant disagree.
peace
-------------------- And Moses Said "Let my mushrooms grow!"
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ManianFH
living in perverty


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Quote:
volume/mass = density (I think =P)
D=M/V
I think what little trapped air there is in ice would have little to do with maintaining the sea level one it melts.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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Acyl
cyanidepoisoning


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d=m/V
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1 ,2
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the man
still masked



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Re: Ice and water question [Re: Acyl]
#7613343 - 11/09/07 12:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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it has everthing to do with ocean based ice. they drill into ice to get paleo climate reading of co2 and shit. there is substantial amount. think about how much air is needed to make water float?? and if it wasnt needed then all teh parts of teh iceburgs above water woudl melt and would raise sea level. unless im not understanding what you are saying
-------------------- And Moses Said "Let my mushrooms grow!"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Ice and water question [Re: the man]
#7613781 - 11/09/07 05:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ice is odd compared to most solids. Water expands when it freezes into ice, rather than contracting like most other substances. This is why ice floats; the mass stays the same, the volume increases, thus the density decreases. A given mass of frozen water (ice) occupies more volume than the same mass of liquid water. Floating ice has nothing to do with trapped air or any other such nonsense.
This is very simple to demonstrate. Take a cup of ice and fill it with water until it cannot hold any more without spilling. Look across the top of the cup and you will see the ice is floating slightly higher than the top of the cup. Now wait for the ice to melt. As the ice melts, nothing spills out of the cup.
The concern for rising sea levels due to melting ice comes from ice that is supported by land melting rather than ice that is supported by water melting. When the north pole melts, sea levels won't rise. When the south pole melts, sea levels will rise.
Increased sea levels have a much larger impact than simply "stepping back from the shoreline". The oceans are the roadways that climate travels upon. It takes a massive amount of water to change the sea level. Although this is spread out over a large area, it is the equivalent of potholes on a road. The climate will most certainly be effected by the change.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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the man
still masked



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Re: Ice and water question [Re: Seuss]
#7614265 - 11/09/07 09:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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yes my point abotu stepping back was that if wer were nomadic it wouldnt cause as many problems (flooded citys)
and yea if it melts fast it could shut down teh ocean circulation or at least retard it. if that happened it would most likely send us back into a ice age though happened after teh last ice age in north america. fresh waer was trapped on land. then broke through into the ocean. taking it the earth out of the heating phase and right back into a ice age.
and suess. why do they take ice cores if it containes no oxegen or other gases? what fills teh void in the ice? does it create a vacume when teh ice increases in size but nothing fllls in that extra area?
-------------------- And Moses Said "Let my mushrooms grow!"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Ice and water question [Re: the man]
#7614275 - 11/09/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> why do they take ice cores if it containes no oxegen or other gases?
I didn't claim that the ice contains no oxygen or other gases. My claim was that the gases in ice are not why ice floats.
As far as voids go, what voids? As water freezes, the molecules align in such a way that they take up more physical space. Also, most of the ice they take for core samples is actually compressed snowfall. Over time, the weight of more and more snow on top compacts the snow at depth into hard ice.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Ice and water question [Re: the man]
#7614323 - 11/09/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:does it create a vacume when teh ice increases in size but nothing fllls in that extra area?
For the most part yes. If there is already dissolved gases in the water, then they will be trapped in the ice crystal, but they are there even before the water was frozen. If you freeze 'pure' water with no dissolved gases in it, then it will still expand and there will be no trapped gases in the ice crystal.
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