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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: niteowl]
#7618870 - 11/10/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just because we speculate that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be accurate little boys.;)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: niteowl]
#7619161 - 11/10/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Try this one on for size......
Once you reach the speed of light.......time stops for you. You could go "anywhere in space/time"......in the blink of an eye, the universe would be an open book for you to read.......
if you could travel at the speed of light.
Hehe, yes for a blink of an eye...'then', the whole universe would collapse into your infinite mass
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7619186 - 11/10/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Can anyone explain how this topic is related to philosophy? Should I post my thread: "Why I Drive Over 55"?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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There's been a lot of this here lately. Our ever watchful mods must be asleep.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Noviseer
Percussion isFree



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Seuss]
#7619442 - 11/10/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Imagine a bunch of people doing "the wave" in a stadium. There are two methods you can use to create "the wave". With the traditional method, each person watches the person beside them. When the person beside them stands up and sits down, then they stand up and sit down. By watching the person to your side, you are waiting for information to act upon before acting yourself. With this method, "the wave" cannot exceed the speed of light in vacuum.
Now imagine the same setup, but instead of watching the person beside you to know when to stand, you are given a watch and told to stand and sit at a specific time. With this method, the "wave" can apparently travel faster than the speed of light, but in reality it contains no information.
you just blew my mind
-------------------- _______________________________________________________________ namaste said: no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped _________________________________________________________________
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Seuss]
#7619489 - 11/10/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Now imagine the same setup, but instead of watching the person beside you to know when to stand, you are given a watch and told to stand and sit at a specific time. With this method, the "wave" can apparently travel faster than the speed of light, but in reality it contains no information. Rather than claiming that "nothing can travel faster than light" the real statement reads "
Actually...
I've often thought about this little thought experiment, and thought about if such a thing were even possible.
I don't think it is...and if it isn't possible, why use it as an explanation?
Relativity is the key here. You could hand out the watches and have them exactly synchronized. Then when everyone went to their seats the watches were in movement to get there. Doesn't that mean that the watches will no longer have the same time?
You would end up with a stadium in which the farther people were from you, the farther back in time their watches would read. That would have the effect of slowing down their standing.
There are other, much more solid, explanations of faster-than-light propagation...such as moving a laser pointer across a distant flat object.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Icelander]
#7619545 - 11/10/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I tend to let popular opinion, not mod fiat, guide the forum.
If a thread is receiving lots of view and lots of replies (201 and 25 respectively so far) even though it's not strictly on-topic, I figure the members find it sufficiently relevant to keep.
That doesn't mean I'm not watching.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Diploid]
#7619578 - 11/10/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The "members " of this forum will respond to anything.
Don't be such a cop out.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: trendal]
#7619607 - 11/10/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think it is...and if it isn't possible, why use it as an explanation?
The example is apropos in that it demonstrates something physicists call the Group Velocity of a wave.
The physics experiments laypeople constantly misunderstand to mean superluminal speeds have been demonstrated actually only demonstrate superluminal Group Velocity. This does not convey information faster than the speed of light because the Signal Velocity is still no faster than light. It's INFORMATION that cannot travel faster than light according to the current understanding that is believed with very high confidence to be correct. Of course, matter can't travel faster than light either as that would convey information.
The Wave-Clock analogy is accurate because even though a distant observer would see a wave moving faster than light, no information can be passed; each file of people in the hypothetical stadium would have no way to SEE, using light, that the person before him sat down and now it's his turn to stand and sit. He can only know that it's his turn because his clock told him to before he can see that his predecessor has stood up and sat down.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Diploid]
#7619622 - 11/10/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You so smart.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Diploid]
#7619633 - 11/10/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Did you read all my post?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: trendal]
#7619661 - 11/10/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Im not sure either man...
The people in the stand are like parts of the wave. The wave does not have unsynchronized watches. I think it is basically the same concept as the laser light analogy.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: trendal]
#7619667 - 11/10/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes. The thought experiment assumes that the clocks are perfectly synchronized. This can be done in principle by someone moving a calibration clock to each person participating in the experiment when you set it up.
With foreknowledge of the distance the calibration clock has to move from person to person and the speed at which it will be moved, the relativistic equations can be used to compensate for any misalignment. In principle.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Diploid]
#7619934 - 11/10/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's funny to think about what would happen, if those people had to pass a ball or something, while executing their timed 'movement'. Starting slowly at first, then getting faster. Where are the limits ? The mass of the ball ? What would one of these guys experience, if he tries to pass that ball arriving at him near TSL ?
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7619944 - 11/10/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It would take more than infinite energy to accelerate the ball faster than light.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Diploid]
#7619995 - 11/10/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know, but what happens exactly if these people keep accelerating the ball. If the many ifs (of this theoretical experiment) were solved, so that an almost endless cue of people pass the ball to each other by a timed and studied (minimal) 'movement' of their bodies. Maybe the ball will transform to some kind of sausage, while the guys handle the tons of mass. Just a funny thought about imagined experiences. Nothing serious.
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niteowl
GrandPaw



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7620303 - 11/10/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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no more for you 
cosmic sausage
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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DimensionX
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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: niteowl]
#7620434 - 11/10/07 09:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is my understanding, im no expert so correct me if im wrong.
Light is one of the only things we know of which has no weight. Which is amazing in itself, it dosent seems to be made of the same kind of matter as everything else. Even sound has weight, because it creates vibrations, you can push things over with sound, but you cant push something over with light. Because light has no weight, it can travel at the speed it does without being destroyed. The faster something with weight goes, the more mass it has, before it gets to the speed light travels at, it becomes so heavy that it destroys itself.
One other thing i know of which maybe has no weight, is thought. Maybe light and thought exist in a similar dimension. Light also has a tendency to have things imprinted in it, like how it captures images. Maybe our thoughts can be captured in light, and we could travel in it, kind of like in the movie k-pax.
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Noviseer
Percussion isFree



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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: DimensionX]
#7621729 - 11/11/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know very little about physics, but if a Solar sail can be propelled by photons, doesn't that mean they have mass? If something can impact upon something else, and cause that other thing to move in the opposite direction, doesn't that mean there's mass?
-------------------- _______________________________________________________________ namaste said: no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped _________________________________________________________________
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Faster than the speed of light... [Re: Noviseer]
#7621738 - 11/11/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noviseer said: I know very little about physics, but if a Solar sail can be propelled by photons, doesn't that mean they have mass? If something can impact upon something else, and cause that other thing to move in the opposite direction, doesn't that mean there's mass?
Nope. Pretty trippy huh? I think so. Light has momentum and can impart this momentum on an object regardless of the fact that it has no mass.
I love learning about physics because it is so tripped out and against human intuition, and it does have philosophical implications as well.
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