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Offlinebuggas
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Registered: 09/27/07
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Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow
    #7607476 - 11/07/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

EDIT:
--------------------------
I'm 99.9% sure these are not 'stalled' due to incorrect moisture or FAE, they have a good amount of both. It is due only to the fact that there is no space between the substrate and the jar. The myc are eating and growing, but it's taking forever. It's like having to eat your way out of a swimming pool of jello, by eating EVERY last bit, but not being able to eat from certain places because of the location of the jello and the size of your head. Eventually you can lick it all away, but it will take a lot longer than eating by the mouthful.
--------------------------
...Now back to the problem for further explaination...
--------------------------

My first cakes were made with a bit too much water and mixing. The subtrate more closely resembled a mud than fluffy substrate (I didn't know any better, this was my first batch). There are some gaps, which are completely full now, but some of the muddy substrate is still really pressed up against the jar and it's taking a while for the myc to eat their way through and colonize 100%. They are at about 90-95% and have been only gaining about .1% or .2% everyday.

I've noticed that on the other parts of each cake, where it's more open, it's really shrinking away from the jar. I'm worried that the majority of the myc will die or consume all the other nutrients before it fully colonizes, leading to a poor flush(es), if any at all.

The jars have been incubating for almost 3 weeks and would be finished already except for this minor issue. I have some other jars of the same strain, made 9 days ago, with the correct BRF mixture, and they're probably going to finish colonizing before these others do. They colonize at about 2-5% per day, if not more. Same space, same temp, fluffier substrate.

This is how i can assume that once the stunted cakes are allowed to 'stretch their legs', they will finish in a super short time.

Is there anything to be said for inducing labor early and letting colonizing finish in a glove box? I can estimate that they will probably only take 24-48 hours at 80-85F, given previous and current growth rates, to finish.

Or, should i just wait a bit longer?


Also, now that i have your attention, what is to be said about birthing early, then crumble'n'case?

Thanks a lot kids! This is why i love this site!

PS: Sorry for the long post


Edited by buggas (11/07/07 03:51 PM)


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: buggas]
    #7607527 - 11/07/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

buggas said:
My first cakes were made with a bit too much water and mixing. The subtrate more closely resembled a mud than fluffy substrate (I didn't know any better, this was my first batch).




Check out some of RR's Vids on youtube or mushroomvideos on how to attain field capacity
Quote:


There are some gaps, which are completely full now, but some of the muddy substrate is still really pressed up against the jar and it's taking a while for the myc to eat their way through and colonize 100%. They are at about 90-95% and have been only gaining about .1% or .2% everyday.





As the substrate is consumed by the mycellium, it will shrink away from the glass.


Quote:


I've noticed that on the other parts of each cake, where it's more open, it's really shrinking away from the jar. I'm worried that the majority of the myc will die or consume all the other nutrients before it fully colonizes, leading to a poor flush(es), if any at all.





Don't worry about it. As long as your temps are ok, mycellium will be fine. I have left 100% colonized jars for 2monhts before birthing. As long as they are in the dark, it's fine. Dont push the 2 month envelope though...

Quote:


The jars have been incubating for almost 3 weeks and would be finished already except for this minor issue. I have some other jars of the same strain, made 9 days ago, with the correct BRF mixture, and they're probably going to finish colonizing before these others do. They colonize at about 2-5% per day, if not more. Same space, same temp, fluffier substrate.





Sounds like you're learning.... Some people on here lack the insight to learn from their projects. Good job. Yes. fluffy airy substrates are nice for growing mycellium

Quote:


This is how i can assume that once the stunted cakes are allowed to 'stretch their legs', they will finish in a super short time.

Is there anything to be said for inducing labor early and letting colonizing finish in a glove box? I can estimate that they will probably only take 24-48 hours at 80-85F, given previous and current growth rates, to finish.

Or, should i just wait a bit longer?






Wait a little longer. Wait until it's 100%, then give it a few more days before birthing into a "fruiting Chamber" ...(not a glove box. A typo I assume)

Quote:


Also, now that i have your attention, what is to be said about birthing early, then crumble'n'case?





Your mileage will vary with experimentation, but most people will tell you to avoid birthing a jar until it is 100% colonized.

Quote:


Thanks a lot kids! This is why i love this site!




Umm... Thanks for the compliment...


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: Fraggin]
    #7608709 - 11/07/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:

Quote:


Is there anything to be said for inducing labor early and letting colonizing finish in a glove box? I can estimate that they will probably only take 24-48 hours at 80-85F, given previous and current growth rates, to finish.





Wait a little longer. Wait until it's 100%, then give it a few more days before birthing into a "fruiting Chamber" ...(not a glove box. A typo I assume)





First, thank you for such a thorough response. Most folks here aren't so concise. You did provide me with information that i was already aware of, but i think that is more my fault for mis-communicating my questions/ideas.

I really did mean a glove box. I am aware of the difference. My logic behind this is that inside the jar, the substrate/myc is separated from contams, right? Well a glove box would theoretically act like a larger jar.

Given that I sterilize the box before placing the jar inside, can i birth the cake inside the glove box and leave it there for a day or so to finish off?

I think that the myc would take over the 5% left of the cake in no time, and being in a glove box, it's not really that different from just leaving it in the jar. Except now, when i 'birth' the cake, it will be from the glove box/temporary incubator, instead of it's jar.

To be honest, your comment about just waiting, and that you've left fully colonized cakes for a couple of months before, then i might leave it. I figure a couple of weeks isn't that long, but it just sucks that it's taking those particular ones so long. I will NEVER mix my substrate with a spoon again. I used my fingers this time with latex gloves and i could gently mix the verm/brf/h2o together.

One of the teks say that the mixing will make your arm tired, so i expected to mix this like a cake batter or dough or something. when i saw that it looked nothing like dough or batter, i mixed in a bit more water, and mixed even harder. when my arm was tired, i figured i was done. then i did the field saturation test by squeezing out a small drop of water, so i got a drop, and thought i was cool. Turns out, that's too much. My new mix barely let out any water at all, and if it did, it was like half a drop. This mix went from MS to about 45% col. in 5 days. I'm very excited i learned that much.

Lesson:
Use your gloved fingers to mix brf/verm. It's way better and you keep all the fluffiness of the verm. BE GENTLE to not break up the verm too much, just break up the chunks that are pea sized or larger. They'll break up real easy. You want it to stay chunky and not become brf/verm powder with water. That makes expensive mud!

Thanks again.


Edited by buggas (11/12/07 03:17 PM)


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: buggas]
    #7626283 - 11/12/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

UPDATE:

So one of my "stalled" jars has started to contam. It's got a couple of bluish spots and more are forming by the day. The older ones are turning a bit more greenish. They're very small, but if i look close i can see.

This is unfortunate because that same jar also decided to pin a couple of days ago. So now i'm left with a 98% colonized jar, that is starting to pin and contam at the same time.

I would try the method of birthing into a glove box, but it seems that all that would do is help the contams. I wonder if a little bleach/h202/water mix could be used. I think i'll experiment just for the sake of experimenting.

My other consideration is to bury it outside in a "honey hole" (my ground seems a bit infertile) and hope that i introduced the myc to a nice home with some benificial bacteria. I don't think the humidity is high enough though. It's only about 60% outside.

Any thoughts?


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: buggas]
    #7626352 - 11/12/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Try again. :shrugs:


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Offlinec0_hush
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: Fraggin]
    #7626407 - 11/12/07 03:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would try the bleach mix because the jar is a goner anyway, it could be a good experiment like you mentioned.


--------------------


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: c0_hush]
    #7627804 - 11/12/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think i will, what do i have to lose?

The other 2 overdone jars have seemed to develop a bit of excess water on the bottom of the jar. I moved them to a warmer place yesterday and today, i'm noticing a bit of water at the bottom.

Should this be something to worry about?

I'm thinking of trying to birth them all in the glove box (separate from the moldy one) and see if they finish in there. I think they'll die before ever getting out of that jar. It's really compacted and shitty in that spot. It's taking forever!!! I'll just trash the moldy one because it's a bastard anyway.

Good bye little pin on shitty cake, you will be missed!


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: buggas]
    #7647230 - 11/17/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

UPDATE (w/ question):

Out of being lazy, I just left the contaminated jar with the pin alone in another box covered in a lysol wipe (just thought the wipe might help, no real science to back me up). I felt bad having to wait so long only to toss the mofo away. Good thing i kept it.

Yesterday i checked on it, just to see if the mold has made any advances on the cake, and to my surprise, the spots were gone, and the first green spot was fading! Also, there was a shroom growing inside the jar! It's about 1.25 inch long and .5cm thick and pressed into the side. Since this was an actual shroom, and not just a pin (at least i think that how the nomenclature works), i decided to birth the jar in my glove box, where it has been for a little bit. The substrate still isn't fully colonized, and that's why i figure to birth into a somewhat "sterile" environment. More like really clean, but hey, this is science right?

When i first unscrewed the jar and poured out the top layer of verm, i noticed that there was another little pin, about 1 cm long and 10 mm thick growing in the top layer.

Since the birthday, the larger mushroom (overgrown pin) has only puffed out just a bit, and the little pin has grown to be almost the size of it's larger brother. I think the larger one is a bit traumatized by the whole "oppression of the jar" experience and is a bit reluctant to get moving. Where as the other one just thinks it's now reached the top soil layer is is really taking off to fruit.

I think right now is about the 24 hour mark for the birth. I haven't noticed any other myc growth on the cake. The cake was pretty hard when i took it out of the jar. It's like a hard little brick.

I noticed another green spot, and i sprayed with peroxide water. I'm not really sure what else to do. I don't really think the peroxide will help, but we'll see. Like i said, this is science.

If the glove box cake birth is somewhat successful at getting that "brick" to finish colonizing, despite it's current fruiting situation, i may take a chance and try that on the other 2 jars that are in the same situation.

My other 4 jars are probably going to be dunked today and moved to the FC tomorrow.

Quick Question:

Since that brick cake is already fruiting, i didn't really get a chance to dunk and roll it. Should i wait to get a flush out of it, then try to DnR, or should i just pick off the pins/shrooms and give it a bath anyway?

I know the rules about eating contaminated cake fruits, but what about if the cake shows contams, and then they disappear? Do those fruits fall under the same rules?


Thanks for your help everyone (this thread or others). And good luck to other growers!!


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: buggas]
    #7647244 - 11/17/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thers no way to fight mould, peroxide only works against cobweb.

The cake is most likely producing fruits as a result of the contamination.

Personaly i would threw it out to avoid spreading contam spores around.

The mould is just likely to further spread, the myc will probobly not colinise the rest of the substrate as it seems to be in fruiting state now.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Substrate really pressed up against jar, growth slow [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7660108 - 11/20/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think I'll agree with your first statement, I've heard that from a few people. I haven't experienced it myself, but seems to be a common thing.

Despite any mold growth, the myc seems to be doing fine and getting a bit fluffy. The cake is starting to lose that shine and smoothness it got from being in the jar so long. To be honest, i don't even think the mold is there anymore. The whole cake seems white, minus a bit of bruising from me monkey pawing it when i was moving from glove box to FC (which is a gallon milk jug and some hydroton. WORKS GREAT!)

Yesterday i thought i saw some mold. It was in between shrooms and i couldn't tell if it was green or blue. The bluing looks kinda green at first. I viewed under different colors of "white" light, and still couldn't tell. I picked the shrooms and am drying them. If the cake is ok for a few days, then i'll assume them safe to eat. It sucks because they(2) are small (~2in stem, and 1cm caps), and they already dropped spores so i didn't even get to attempt to perpetuate the species.

We'll see what happens. The mold isn't coming on as strong as i had anticipated, if even at all. It could have been solely from refractions in the jar that made it look green.

I do however have one of those cement cakes that, after birthing, looked to have some rust colored marks on the "top", or bottom of the jar i guess (not near lid holes). I don't know if these are mold tracks (orange mold?), or if they are in fact rust. I birthed, dunked for 12, and rolled, and i guess if it's infected, only time will tell. It is segregated as well so no worries there.

My other "better" cakes have been sitting in the FC for a few days now and i think the cold weather is affecting them. They haven't moved at all since the dunking, maybe only a bit of growth, but still. Just taking a little longer than i anticipated. I use a "heat bomb" every now and then to get the temps back up to 73 from 67, but i don't like using it that much because it heats up the inside of my FC and all the water condenses on the sides of the glass. I hope contams don't make a home. I guess i should just stop being green and turn on my heater instead of using a blanket. For mushroom sake, I guess that's still a green purpose.

I'm sure the patience will be rewarded.


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others


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