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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7647304 - 11/17/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kristofer said:
if you read Marx he says that capitalism is necessary in the transition to communism because modern society needs a reasonable means of production. All the failed attempts to reach this Utopian world over the last hundred years just shows that the world isn't ready for the transition now.




It "shows that" if you have granted divine status to a proven failed ideologue and his utterances. Doesn't really "show that" to anybody else, though. Circularity; His failures "show" the validity of his ideas because he built in a disclaimer.

Twirly, twirly, twirly


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: DieCommie]
    #7647396 - 11/17/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It can't be a reciprocal relationship. Without extending the limits on debt we'd fall into a depression. In essence, we don't make enough money to support the lives we lead.

As wages decrease credit is more readily available. It makes living life kinda manageable because it simplifies it all down to monthly payments. But the average middle class adult will spend 30 years working to pay back a mortgage.. That's 1 week of paid vacation a year for nearly half of adulthood. Not to mention.. somebody didn't have to work because of the interest accrued on the account.

I recommend this video series if you're interested in finance at all.

How Banks Rob You

One might be wise with money and profit off of savings and calculated risks. But at who's expense? If one were making interest, somebody else is paying that interest. The wealthy are living off of interest that the poor work hard to pay for.

I think the monopoly game could be alright.. but by the time I got in on it all the land was divvied up. I went to college so I could become a skilled laborer and get ahead in this silly game. Obviously that set me back a little bit financially.. the old ball and chain. What's funny is that the very people who lent me that money were risking it on my success as a skilled laborer. We've gotta go into debt first.. one has to be a slave to this machine before overcoming it. Either that or inherit some wealth and power. Seriously, one can't win at monopoly if all the land is already owned before getting in on the game.

It's a class struggle, not a relationship. The American Dream is a struggle for a management position.


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Redstorm]
    #7647492 - 11/17/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Source?



Nazi human expiriments cited in legitimate research that advanced the collective medical knowledge.

Quote:

And autonomy, and the best living conditions known to mankind for those taking part in it. Even your lowliest McDonald's workers are better off than those in less developed countries.




We do have excellent living conditions.. but it's at the expense of a huge third world working class now. Americans are the middle management. Our laborers jobs are slowly but surely being outsourced to less developed nations.

Quote:

If we didn't have money, we would still have possessions. People would still covet others' possessions.




Nobody would covet a big television if everyone could have one. Everyone could have all the commodities they needed (or wanted if supply great enough).. for some reason capitalists think that without incentive people are generally lazy and unproductive. I know Pavlov demonstrated how incentives affect a dogs behavior, but reducing people to that? C'mon.. Forget the money for once and give people a chance.

Quote:

And taking part in an economic system other than capitalism would solve these problems? You would still have to work for a living, regardless of the system.

The internet and the technology necessary for it to exist was brought to you by big, greedy capitalism. Without free enterprise, you wouldn't have just made that post.




You're absolutely right. I never said capitalism was wrong.. but I do think we're outgrowing it.. it's weaknesses are more and more apparent as we progress. Capitalism has created a great many things for the betterment of man. It's also created a real divide between rich and poor that could be overcome with some new ideas.


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7647594 - 11/17/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Excuse me? There's no circular logic here. No true Marxist society has ever existed. Soviet Russia and China aren't really examples of Marxism because they are Communist-states. Communist-state is an oxymoron as communism has no "state"; just people that live and work together. And there's certainly no "divine status" to any ideology.

We don't currently have a global means of production that satisfies everyone, so a true Marxist world can't happen yet anyway.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7647792 - 11/17/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Watched all five parts. Interesting stuff this gradual takeover of wealth and power.

You think all these anti-terror measurements are being implemented for when the economy collapse, to strike down rebellion? :smile:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7647842 - 11/17/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kristofer said:
Excuse me? There's no circular logic here. No true Marxist society has ever existed. Soviet Russia and China aren't really examples of Marxism because they are Communist-states. Communist-state is an oxymoron as communism has no "state"; just people that live and work together. And there's certainly no "divine status" to any ideology.

We don't currently have a global means of production that satisfies everyone, so a true Marxist world can't happen yet anyway.




The mark of a true believer is one who demands impossible circumstances as prerequisites for success and, when they fail to materialize, bemoans the unenlightened, or in this case unready, state of the world. You are quite right that no ideology is "divine". Too bad you can't seem to apply such scrutiny to Marx. It doesn't work, it didn't work, it won't work, it can't work. It is a pipesmoker's dream that would require an entirely different species to be workable. Like an ant or a bee.


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7648137 - 11/17/07 04:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kristofer said:
I never said capitalism was wrong.. but I do think we're outgrowing it.. it's weaknesses are more and more apparent as we progress. Capitalism has created a great many things for the betterment of man. It's also created a real divide between rich and poor that could be overcome with some new ideas.




Capitalism as a system of ownership and allocation of resources throughout society is the best system that has ever been in place that tries to model nature.

The divide between the rich and poor is a matter of education and knowledge in how to operate in such a system. In capitalism, the consumer votes with their dollars. Its the overwhelming support of the consumer that has led to Walmart being the dominant retailer in the nation and maybe the world. They want the service of low prices in the items they desire to purchase. Walmart does not dictate to the consumer what to consume, they monitor what the consumer's consumption habits and just accomodate accordingly.

Capitalism is the only system that allows the pure economic expression of the individual. However, if consumers don't buy your service that expression might ceist to exist.

I see the problem is that a lot of Americans have been corrupted by socialist thinking by unionization. No one in entitled to a job. The owner risks their captial to provide job opportunities. Everyone has a choice weather or not to participate. The best service should be rewarded with the most pay. This requires an educated decison by the person doing the paying, weather its a workers salary, or the consumer purchasing a product or service.

Capitalism allows the individual to profit by following their passion and not be dicated to as whats best for them. When you follow your passion, one would not worry about someone else competeing with them to provide better service bcs they feel confident enought that the service they provide is one of the best. Yes, there is more to life than money, but its the freedom of the individual to choose weather money is the primary benchmark for them.

The answer to me is to increase the consciousness of the participants of the Capitalist system. And I guess with religion or making this place a better world its starts with you as the individual leading by example. This is why Warren Buffett is going to donate the bulk of his wealth to the Gates Foundation. He knows that he could only obtain his wealth due to the ignorance of others. In today's America there is no need for physical slavery with whips and chains. Most of the exploited are willing participants. At its root slavery has always been a state of mind.

To simplify every action or intent can be broken down, either based in fear and doubt or love and trust. The Captialism that most despise is being practiced by particpants based in fear and doubt.


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #7648433 - 11/17/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In today's America there is no need for physical slavery with whips and chains. Most of the exploited are willing participants. At its root slavery has always been a state of mind.




Absolutely. The people at the bottom are there because of a lack of awareness.

Basically what I get out of it is that the people being taken advantage of are too dumb to know the difference and we shouldn't care about that anyway.

For some reason though, I feel compelled to painstakingly explain to each and every one of them that there's a rich guy somewhere making billions off of our collected efforts as lowly wage earners.

Instead of letting them get taken show them the light.

It's the idealists message to the masses so to speak. We already do the work. We can live in competition with one another, or we can work together. It's really not that complicated.


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Arp]
    #7648534 - 11/17/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Do you follow news about economics at all? The video series isn't a conspiracy. It's just how it is.

I recommend Mish's Global Economic Analysis and My Money Blog.

That's why the housing market falling flat is such a big deal though. Investors lose money.. because of the surplus in housing, home values are going to drop - so property owners are losing as well. A Google Search for subprime mortage could quickly give you some more information about it.

Overall it's related to American consumption though. The working class doesn't really make enough money to keep up with everything it buys. Especially when the labor jobs are headed for less developed nations. Our economy is dependent on an ever increasing amount of credit.

It's everything to do with personal decisions though. The debtors knew they were taking on debt they couldn't handle. The creditors knew they were taking serious risks too by lending money to people who couldn't realistically afford it. In all, the lenders get the property, so it's not a complete loss. But the value of homes nationwide will lower our overall wealth and possibly send us into recession. Not to mention foreclosures on families.


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Luddite]
    #7648566 - 11/17/07 06:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Is that because when there's no money there's no incentive for people to work? Logic permits.. that mass laziness would follow? Without money people would be lazy?


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Edited by kristofer (11/17/07 06:47 PM)


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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7649048 - 11/17/07 08:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

free enterprise and capitalism are great. I hope America never ends up like the euro-socialism states (perfect example France). Surely no system is perfect but I do believe the best way is what our nation was founded on.


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: andrewss]
    #7649525 - 11/17/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

our country wasn't founded on capitalism. it was founded on freedom. we've strayed drastically from that into a nation in conflict with one another. a bipartisan political system - two sides in conflict with one another. the rat race - every man, or groups of men, in conflict with one another for a "quality product at a lower price."

Every working man is reduced to a commodity. If demand is high and supply is low the working man's time is more valuable. But just like every other commodity, when the demand for the working man's time decreases the his time is less valuable.

The United States - hardly united. We pride ourselves on freedom but we take it from other nations. We wage wars over ideals. We represent 0.5% of the worlds population, yet we're the richest and most powerful nation in history. We have strong-armed oil rich countries into compliance with our way of life. We close the borders to immigrants, yet we send our factory jobs to their countries.

You hope we don't become a "euro-socialist" state, but really we're just on the wrong side of a worldwide change in thought. While we're dissecting the world into investment opportunities the rest of the world is coming together and embracing socialist modes of production. Brazil is embracing open source software. The EU is uniting the power of dozens of economies. Countries are uniting to compete with us and we're putting them in a stranglehold for it.

It's not even a free enterprise or free market economy anyway. I covered that even earlier in the thread though.


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7649546 - 11/17/07 11:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kristofer said:
Basically what I get out of it is that the people being taken advantage of are too dumb to know the difference and we shouldn't care about that anyway.

For some reason though, I feel compelled to painstakingly explain to each and every one of them that there's a rich guy somewhere making billions off of our collected efforts as lowly wage earners.

Instead of letting them get taken show them the light.

It's the idealists message to the masses so to speak. We already do the work. We can live in competition with one another, or we can work together. It's really not that complicated.




Hi kristofer,

I don't mean to write off people as dumb or hopeless. If I do that's my ego talking. In my heart I do care for them. The hardest part is to break thru to them and get them wanting to learn, leave the victim behind, and become accountable for their actions.

You seem to paint a picture of the billionaire as the bad guy who exploits the uneducated masses of their labor. Not all are. What if the billionaire is just a person wise enough to position themself to let Capitalism help them get where the want to go? The money just gives him more say and freedom in the world and more resources to help people. You know this world is filled with a lot of crazy people. It's hard to contest all of them physically. Capitalism allows a more passive way around them.

For example, you are a pro environment person. But you can't stop these SUV crazy consumers. You buy only what you need, drive a high MPG vehicle and walk or mass transit whenever feasible. This leaves some room to have savings left over from your paycheck. You decide to buy shares of CNQ, a Canadian oil company. Why, this is a way to increase your wealth just going with the actions of people and not against them. You know you can't control them.

You are then able to pay off your mortgage, and lead a less stressful life with time for your family and to be a friend to someone in need. Not just for the money to buy fancy crap. That's how you work with the system. Making the best of the opportunities presented to you.


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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7649756 - 11/18/07 12:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kristofer said:
our country wasn't founded on capitalism. it was founded on freedom. we've strayed drastically from that into a nation in conflict with one another. a bipartisan political system - two sides in conflict with one another. the rat race - every man, or groups of men, in conflict with one another for a "quality product at a lower price."

Every working man is reduced to a commodity. If demand is high and supply is low the working man's time is more valuable. But just like every other commodity, when the demand for the working man's time decreases the his time is less valuable.

The United States - hardly united. We pride ourselves on freedom but we take it from other nations. We wage wars over ideals. We represent 0.5% of the worlds population, yet we're the richest and most powerful nation in history. We have strong-armed oil rich countries into compliance with our way of life. We close the borders to immigrants, yet we send our factory jobs to their countries.

You hope we don't become a "euro-socialist" state, but really we're just on the wrong side of a worldwide change in thought. While we're dissecting the world into investment opportunities the rest of the world is coming together and embracing socialist modes of production. Brazil is embracing open source software. The EU is uniting the power of dozens of economies. Countries are uniting to compete with us and we're putting them in a stranglehold for it.

It's not even a free enterprise or free market economy anyway. I covered that even earlier in the thread though.




Perhaps, however... lable me a simple thinker, I would rather live in America than many of the EU countries. I like how easy it is to (in a way) get into the entrepreneurial system in America. Our freedom to engage in the economic process is pretty cool. Yeah, of course the working man to the business owner is a commodity. Welcome to real world. Screw the mass equality systems, I kinda think they are flawed. I would rather take the good with the bad then the mediocre. People need to take some responsibility for themselves, if you are pissed develop a business plan go into action and take a loan out... lol :wink: . I dont know if I really like handouts. Just look at countries like France and their fucking unemployed go on strike for more benefits or some shit! Capitalism pretty much equals realism :laugh:


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: andrewss]
    #7649790 - 11/18/07 01:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

take out a loan? you're suggesting starting a business by going into debt? I currently run my own business. If cash flow isn't good enough and a loan is necessary for startup costs - the operators financial sense is lacking.. that's a difficult risk to take. It takes time to establish clients and build business relationships. A loan for startup costs is a setback.

and I'm not pissed about anything. realism is that we're all living in this tiny world together. we're competing for the same land. the land that was there before all of us.. the same land that will outlive us all. we're competing for the same dollars. we constantly struggle in opposition to one another to get what we need so we can do what we want.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7649848 - 11/18/07 01:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kristofer said:
take out a loan? you're suggesting starting a business by going into debt? I currently run my own business. If cash flow isn't good enough and a loan is necessary for startup costs - the operators financial sense is lacking.. that's a difficult risk to take. It takes time to establish clients and build business relationships. A loan for startup costs is a setback.

and I'm not pissed about anything. realism is that we're all living in this tiny world together. we're competing for the same land. the land that was there before all of us.. the same land that will outlive us all. we're competing for the same dollars. we constantly struggle in opposition to one another to get what we need so we can do what we want.




I am/was just rambling... yeah going into debt then starting business wouldn't be ideal.

I like your 2nd paragraph... I am just kinda jumping into this thread... might as well stay out I suppose... dont have the attention for it right now.

:crazy2:


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: andrewss]
    #7649892 - 11/18/07 01:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

by all means jump in. maybe tomorrow it will continue. I appreciate criticism. Somebody has to be the idealist right?

If you start at the beginning the first two posts are really the primary view, and everyone from there just started little side debates throughout the thread. It's really easier to read through this one in threaded mode.


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