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InvisibleLuddite
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Free enterprise system is a capital idea
    #7607452 - 11/07/07 03:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)
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SAN FRANCISCO (Map, News) - A friend and I were talking in a coffee shop, and then two more guys briefly joined us, both highly educated, both interesting, and one of them especially provocative. He pronounced that capitalism, at its least fettered, was immoral, a form of “piracy,” and at its best — when properly bound and regulated — still amoral.

I don’t think so. What I do think is that it took hundreds and thousands of Marxists and other socialists of less extreme bent preaching for many years to so befuddle large numbers of people as to get them to ignore historical facts and dwell instead in a world of make-believe.

I myself don’t even like the word capitalism because it was more the enemies of this mode of economic life who popularized the usage than its friends, and who managed to attach all sorts of sour, even evil connotations to it. When the word comes up, you therefore almost immediately think of exploitation, greed, abject materialism, the worst excesses of early industrialism and even gangsterism.

To me, the connotation that ought to be uppermost in the mind when considering the system is something else: emancipation. A government says to its people that they are free to go out and find ways to earn livelihoods and acquire property through all kinds of enterprises, and to contract with others to work with them. The consequences have been breathtaking.

There has been the unleashing of enormous amounts of human energy, the innovative solving of huge, seemingly insoluble problems, efficiency arising from competition and a prosperity that has provided the wherewithal of amazingly productive, large-scale scientific investigation. It is a prosperity that has made people at every social level better off than their historical predecessors, not just in possessions, but in such benefits as health and education. It has done more to eradicate poverty than all the good intentions of utopian thinkers put together.

Obviously, you realize that people in any set of circumstances are capable of vile behavior. You therefore establish sound laws that simultaneously enable the free market to function effectively while preventing abuses to employees, customers, the public and the environment.

The thing you do not do is junk this system for an alternative such as the one found in the late Soviet Union, which murdered and enslaved millions to achieve an economic arrangement that ultimately collapsed. You also avoid the enervating, big-government intemperance known as the welfare state, which is now threatening to sink large parts of Europe.

Far from being amoral, free enterprise economies give us vast opportunities for individual growth and expression and a liberty without which other kinds of liberties are endangered.

Why, then, in the light of what we have learned over the past century and more are the top three presidential contenders on the Democratic side each in varying degrees leaning toward a European-style socialism? I meant to ask the coffee shop provocateur the question, but he had to get back to some business dealings that I am willing to bet are both engaging and highly remunerative.

http://www.examiner.com/a-1033739~Ambrose__Free_enterprise_system_is_a_capital_idea.html




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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Luddite]
    #7612581 - 11/08/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
I don’t think so. What I do think is that it took hundreds and thousands of Marxists and other socialists of less extreme bent preaching for many years to so befuddle large numbers of people as to get them to ignore historical facts and dwell instead in a world of make-believe.





first of all, human history IS largely materialistic in nature. the make believe is that you can make it yourself (or american dream if you will..). perhaps you just woke up yesterday, but we all share the same planet and have the same needs. take a look at history again.

Quote:


I myself don’t even like the word capitalism because it was more the enemies of this mode of economic life who popularized the usage than its friends, and who managed to attach all sorts of sour, even evil connotations to it. When the word comes up, you therefore almost immediately think of exploitation, greed, abject materialism, the worst excesses of early industrialism and even gangsterism.





the evil came because there ARE rich people that DO exploit laborers. Owning a McDonalds is worth millions of dollars annually. But the 20 people that do the real work don't even make a livable wage. If you think people should work harder for better careers then consider the employees of Enron and the like.. also exploited by their master. There are countless other historical examples of the evils of capitalism.

Quote:


To me, the connotation that ought to be uppermost in the mind when considering the system is something else: emancipation. A government says to its people that they are free to go out and find ways to earn livelihoods and acquire property through all kinds of enterprises, and to contract with others to work with them. The consequences have been breathtaking.





Own property? Excuse me, but the world was here long before me.. and it will outlive every single one of us. It's nobody's land to own. We all share it. Enterprises that operate on privately owned land tend to abuse the natural resources putting people at more risk, and potentially damaging the living conditions of future generations. Not to mention it's ability to take advantage of laborers.

Quote:


There has been the unleashing of enormous amounts of human energy, the innovative solving of huge, seemingly insoluble problems, efficiency arising from competition and a prosperity that has provided the wherewithal of amazingly productive, large-scale scientific investigation. It is a prosperity that has made people at every social level better off than their historical predecessors, not just in possessions, but in such benefits as health and education. It has done more to eradicate poverty than all the good intentions of utopian thinkers put together.





Can't argue there.. even Marx said that capitalism was necessary and leads to a socialist/communist society. Capitalism's good comes in establishing an efficient means of production. It's flaws aren't really apparent until technology starts taking jobs by improving the means of production. It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Something you probably didn't consider though.. that the late great USA brought hundreds of thousands of slaves from Africa just to feed the capitalists greed. Nearly all the great medical advances in modern society happened because Hilter and the Nazis did medical experimentation on the Jews. What capitalism succeeded in doing was creating a culture dependent on possessions and an ever growing supply of credit. The glorious capitalist system you're encouraging us to believe in has a long history of oppression indeed.

Quote:


Obviously, you realize that people in any set of circumstances are capable of vile behavior. You therefore establish sound laws that simultaneously enable the free market to function effectively while preventing abuses to employees, customers, the public and the environment.





If people no longer had to struggle to make a dollar to pay the bills and live another day there would be no need to rob somebody for cash for ANY reason. In fact, if money ceased to exist there would be absolutely no motivation for people to take advantage of one another. It doesn't account for all criminal behavior, but I'd venture to say that most criminal behavior is money motivated.

Quote:


The thing you do not do is junk this system for an alternative such as the one found in the late Soviet Union, which murdered and enslaved millions to achieve an economic arrangement that ultimately collapsed. You also avoid the enervating, big-government intemperance known as the welfare state, which is now threatening to sink large parts of Europe.





The late Soviet Union was a tyrannical dictatorship, not a communal endeavor. They didn't eliminate class struggles like Marx suggested. Instead they were more Republic (yes, Plato..) oriented with an "elite" upper echelon and a lower working class. Communism isn't about a "welfare state." It's about people solving life's problems together instead of expecting government to do it for you. We support the freeloaders in either case though.. so what difference does it make?

Quote:


Far from being amoral, free enterprise economies give us vast opportunities for individual growth and expression and a liberty without which other kinds of liberties are endangered.





Umm.. again, wake up. Our economy isn't a free market. It's controlled by the Fed. Mr. Greenspan raises interest rates to encourage people to invest. That shrinks the available money supply by taking it out of the economy and putting into banks. He lowers interest rates so that people will BORROW money, therefore putting money back into the economy. Unfortunately that means our money supply is dictated by a small group of people. It's funny how the members of the Fed live in bigger houses than everyone else [yeah, it's from the daily show..]

Regardless of all that though, capitalism still forces those without the means to produce on their own to have to get REAL jobs to pay money back to the people that already own the means to produce. In essence, we're wage slaves (yes, SLAVES) and our personal creativity and self expression is limited to the hours that aren't owned by somebody richer than ourselves.

Quote:


Why, then, in the light of what we have learned over the past century and more are the top three presidential contenders on the Democratic side each in varying degrees leaning toward a European-style socialism? I meant to ask the coffee shop provocateur the question, but he had to get back to some business dealings that I am willing to bet are both engaging and highly remunerative.





The reason is probably because the current administration has an irrational foreign policy. Or that we have an enormous problem with the afford ability of health care. We try to generalize the cost because the captains of industry (yeah, companies like wal-mart) aren't willing to provide their employees with a decent health care plan. If it's not coming together for you.. the real problem is the separation between rich and poor. The divide is growing, but this beautiful "free market" you believe in isn't adjusting for a poorer and poorer America.


--------------------
dewbie dewbie dew


Edited by kristofer (11/08/07 08:07 PM)


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7617988 - 11/10/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If it wasn't for slavery, you wouldn't be here.


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Invisiblewps
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Luddite]
    #7618031 - 11/10/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the problem with living in a capitalist system is that its a SYSTEM, not a SOCIETY. The individual within that system is not a human being, rather he is a component.

You literally cannot trust anyone, because they are all out to scam you. I live in one of the most capitalist states in America. I've had car mechanics tell me I should change my oil every 1,000 miles. I've had doctors prescribe me unnecessary, harmful medication. Why? because the mechanic works for the oil companies, and the doctor works for big pharma. You might say, "Well go to a different mechanic." But they are all hungry, so they are all the same.

A profit-driven system isn't always what's best for the individual.


--------------------
"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello


Edited by wps (11/10/07 09:47 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: kristofer]
    #7618259 - 11/10/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Nearly all the great medical advances in modern society happened because Hilter and the Nazis did medical experimentation on the Jews.




Source?

Quote:

The glorious capitalist system you're encouraging us to believe in has a long history of oppression indeed.




And autonomy, and the best living conditions known to mankind for those taking part in it. Even your lowliest McDonald's workers are better off than those in less developed countries.

Quote:

If people no longer had to struggle to make a dollar to pay the bills and live another day there would be no need to rob somebody for cash for ANY reason. In fact, if money ceased to exist there would be absolutely no motivation for people to take advantage of one another. It doesn't account for all criminal behavior, but I'd venture to say that most criminal behavior is money motivated.




If we didn't have money, we would still have possessions. People would still covet others' possessions.

Quote:


Regardless of all that though, capitalism still forces those without the means to produce on their own to have to get REAL jobs to pay money back to the people that already own the means to produce. In essence, we're wage slaves (yes, SLAVES) and our personal creativity and self expression is limited to the hours that aren't owned by somebody richer than ourselves.




And taking part in an economic system other than capitalism would solve these problems? You would still have to work for a living, regardless of the system.

The internet and the technology necessary for it to exist was brought to you by big, greedy capitalism. Without free enterprise, you wouldn't have just made that post.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: wps]
    #7618721 - 11/10/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wps said:
the problem with living in a capitalist system is that its a SYSTEM, not a SOCIETY. The individual within that system is not a human being, rather he is a component.

You literally cannot trust anyone, because they are all out to scam you. I live in one of the most capitalist states in America. I've had car mechanics tell me I should change my oil every 1,000 miles. I've had doctors prescribe me unnecessary, harmful medication. Why? because the mechanic works for the oil companies, and the doctor works for big pharma. You might say, "Well go to a different mechanic." But they are all hungry, so they are all the same.




My zappa is this ignorant. Auto mechanics don't work for the oil companies. Most doctors don't work for drug companies. You need to find a nice safe cave to live in. You have a car? Did you actually do anything to build it or learn how it works? You have a body? Did you actually do anything to learn how it works? Do you realize your psychotropic meds are not consistently applicable to all individuals because of their differences? The individual's differences, not the drugs. You are a victim of your own ignorance. The ONLY system wherein an individual is an individual is the capitalist system. Everywhere else he/she is a functionary.
Quote:



A profit-driven system isn't always what's best for the individual.




Of course not. It is what's best for the most individuals. You can have 20% losers in a capitalist system or 99% losers in a communist system. And that 20% is still mostly better off than the 99%.


--------------------


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: wps]
    #7618738 - 11/10/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wps said:
the problem with living in a capitalist system is that its a SYSTEM, not a SOCIETY. The individual within that system is not a human being, rather he is a component.






I was gonna respond, but then I read the rest of your post.


--------------------
Asshole


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: wps]
    #7619022 - 11/10/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

you can't reason with the devil when the only outcome is true :stoned:


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Arp]
    #7619054 - 11/10/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
you can't reason with the devil when the only outcome is true :stoned:




what the hell does that mean?


--------------------
Asshole


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #7619062 - 11/10/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

he will prove you that he is right :tongue2:


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Invisiblewps
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7619217 - 11/10/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You have a car? Did you actually do anything to build it or learn how it works? You have a body? Did you actually do anything to learn how it works? Do you realize your psychotropic meds are not consistently applicable to all individuals because of their differences? The individual's differences, not the drugs. You are a victim of your own ignorance.




Of course, learning about the world is exactly what I did. So now I do my own mechanical work and diagnose my own medical problems. Because I don't trust those people. But isn't that kind of sad? Why should I have to be some kind of Renaissance man just to function in the world? Shouldn't I be able to TRUST the EXPERTS that I PAY to perform services for me?

Quote:

My zappa is this ignorant. Auto mechanics don't work for the oil companies. Most doctors don't work for drug companies.




The people at the oil change place do indeed work for motor oil companies, yes. And their bonus depends on how much oil they sell.

And if you don't think that Doctors work for pfizer and lilly... wow, thats naive. These companies basically bribe doctors to overprescribe their medications through 'incentive programs'. I can't tell you how many kids I knew growing up that were misdiagnosed with ADD because they were acting up in school, or their hypochondriac parents thought there was something wrong with them... And their doctors would take advantage of this by pumping WAY TOO MUCH medication down their throats. These kids usually ended up selling their meds because if they took all that they were prescribed they would never sleep. These were not isolated incidents, this was widespread.

Look, I'm not a communist at all. I'm just saying, capitalism isn't perfect. There are downsides and social consequences. When a business like medicine is run for a profit, its detrimental to the quality of practice. The purpose of medicine should be to cure the patient, not to make money.


--------------------
"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello


Edited by wps (11/10/07 03:53 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: wps]
    #7621609 - 11/11/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wps said:
the problem with living in a capitalist system is that its a SYSTEM, not a SOCIETY. The individual within that system is not a human being, rather he is a component.




the whole idea behind conservatism is that people exist to serve the economy and not the other way around...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7621665 - 11/11/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think so.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Redstorm]
    #7621730 - 11/11/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

why not?...


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7621743 - 11/11/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Its a reciprocal relationship of course. The economy serves the people who serve the economy who serves the people... The net result is everyone gets richer, the rich and the poor.

edit- but that is capitalism not conservatism. Conservatism is a relative term that only recently, i think, has been attributed to capitalism.


Edited by Qubit (11/11/07 11:53 AM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: DieCommie]
    #7621790 - 11/11/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Its a reciprocal relationship of course. The economy serves the people who serve the economy who serves the people.




thats debatable...i would argue that economies were evolved to meet human needs...and it might also be worth pointing out that "economy" in my earlier post de facto means "the ppl who own it"..although this is a mere technicality...

Quote:

The net result is everyone gets richer, the rich and the poor.




when ppl say "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer"..they mean that the difference between the rich and the poor is increasing and not necessarily that the poor are actually getting poorer...

Quote:

Conservatism is a relative term that only recently, i think, has been attributed to capitalism.




words with a social connotation such as "conservatism" and "capitalism" are necessarily ill-defined...many liberals..however..tend to associate both words with neoconservatism..which is neither...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: DieCommie]
    #7621797 - 11/11/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The net result is everyone gets richer, the rich and the poor.



Fifty years ago, it was possible for a factory worker to support a family of 4 on a single income, living in a house rather than an apartment. Do you see that today? I believe real wages have fallen quite a bit since then, though this is obscured by inflation and the fact that things like TVs and computers have become cheaper.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Silversoul]
    #7622822 - 11/11/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fifty years ago, manual labor was king. Cars and refrigerators were quite expensive too. Also, the labor force was essentially doubled when women became an integral part. Let's see, double the available labor pool and what happens to wages? Hmmm, let me think about this...Hmmm, why, wages go down. Not a bad thing, just a thing. Overall, a plus, I think. They wanted it, they got it, and there's no going back, so whining about how many people it takes to support a family now is bullshit. At least women aren't forced into sexual slavery anymore.


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7623660 - 11/11/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

which is why ive always been more than a little bit skeptical about feminism...


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Offlinekristofer
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Re: Free enterprise system is a capital idea [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7647247 - 11/17/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm playing devils advocate here. There are pros and cons to Marxist theory and capitalism. Ultimately though, if you read Marx he says that capitalism is necessary in the transition to communism because modern society needs a reasonable means of production. All the failed attempts to reach this Utopian world over the last hundred years just shows that the world isn't ready for the transition yet.


--------------------
dewbie dewbie dew


Edited by kristofer (11/17/07 11:08 AM)


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