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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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the fog of war
    #7601327 - 11/06/07 03:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

have you seen this documentary?

"In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil."

do you agree with this statement? why/why not?

i am not sure if i agree or not

notice that it says you MAY have to engage in evil, not that you WILL


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7601334 - 11/06/07 03:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

a good example is animal testing, esp of higher primates, for human medical research

no doubt it is evil, but the "good" part im not sure


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7601340 - 11/06/07 03:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't seen the documentary, but that is a great question, and that is a great example. :thumbup:

"Good" and "evil", of course, are relative, subjective terms... but in regards to your example, I think a better way to phrase it might be to ask if it is compassionate, to inflict suffering in order to learn how to alleviate it in others....

I don't have an answer.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7601736 - 11/06/07 09:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
have you seen this documentary?

"In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil."

do you agree with this statement? why/why not?

i am not sure if i agree o

notice that it says you MAY have to engage in evil, not that you WILL




I do not agree. Good and evil being arbitrary and subjective. We can never know for sure if what we engage in is good or evil because we cannot see the long term effects of our actions or know all the ramifications of our acts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinegeedorah Happy Birthday!
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7601752 - 11/06/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
"In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil."





Aleister Crowley was an advocator of this.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the fog of war [Re: geedorah]
    #7601769 - 11/06/07 09:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

He engaged in opium to feel good.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the fog of war [Re: Icelander]
    #7603079 - 11/06/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

adjust said:
have you seen this documentary?

"In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil."

do you agree with this statement? why/why not?

i am not sure if i agree o

notice that it says you MAY have to engage in evil, not that you WILL




I do not agree. Good and evil being arbitrary and subjective. We can never know for sure if what we engage in is good or evil because we cannot see the long term effects of our actions or know all the ramifications of our acts.




thats a good point

the way i see it... i am not sure that i can consider something to be good if it was achieved through evil, which is i think independent of my personal definition of good and evil and the degree of understanding of the consequences


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7603196 - 11/06/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the part that im hung up on is

to separate achievement from the means through which it was achieved

for example, i could poison a dog that barks every night and many people would be relieved

or i could speak with the owners to bring the dog inside at night

in both cases the same result


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7603221 - 11/06/07 03:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What if the owner told you to go fuck yourself?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the fog of war [Re: Icelander]
    #7603277 - 11/06/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

thats a good question

lets say he says that

and i call the municipality and they tell me that too

and i call a few more places and they all tell me to fuck off

and THEN i go ahead and poison the dog

i personally could not say that the result was good or bad, it is a mixture


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7603432 - 11/06/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, my bad! :blush: I thought this thread was about the Frog of War...



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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7606212 - 11/07/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

For me it's kind of exclusive, meaning: No 'good' can be achieved with bad deeds. For me it's a paradox and leads people into the fangs of tricksters who want to misuse peoples good intentions for the tricksters evil ones'.
That's true especially for war...ding ding


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineKonyap


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Re: the fog of war [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7613115 - 11/08/07 10:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think its that when someone who is an asshole usually does somethin for someone for someone other then themselves that makes them good becuase of the contrast of how bad they usually are

ex- i think i am self centered and selfish but people say the opposite about me and it catches me off guard


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Offlineleery11
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Re: the fog of war [Re: Konyap]
    #7648582 - 11/17/07 06:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i have seen it

is that dudes third eye open?

is he illuminati

good
evil

neither?
ever seen the gods must be crazy?

the dude cried over a medal

what about that? do we hold his tears in compassion

do we judge him a killer?

it was an interesting film for me to see

i think he was being truthful, i think he believed what he was doing, and it made me less conspiratorial in general

but

nothing wrong with communism darn it!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (11/17/07 06:53 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: the fog of war [Re: leery11]
    #7649259 - 11/17/07 10:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Good and evil don't exist. They are merely culturally relative terms. If my culture valued eating the brains of the elderly then people who did this would be considered heroes. Just because your culture judges something does not mean that this judgment is set in stone and the last word.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7649302 - 11/17/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have no problem with eating the brains of the elderly (Sorry, Ice) until I become elderly, then I am totally against it.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: the fog of war [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7649323 - 11/17/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Depends how you define evil.

There is evil evil, like murder. And there is evil like sometimes hurting someone in a battle. This definition falls under harm. Under this definition yes, sometimes in order to do good you have to do evil.

But otherwise no, Good and evil are exclusive.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7649331 - 11/17/07 10:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, Jonathan, but good and evil cannot be both inclusive and exclusive. :nono:


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Offlineleery11
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Re: the fog of war [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7649340 - 11/17/07 10:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i would side with the notion that morals transcend culture and culture is often amoral by nature


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: leery11]
    #7649355 - 11/17/07 10:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i would side with the notion that morals transcend cultur




Then you would be wrong.

Give one example of a moral that transcends culture and what you base this upon.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the fog of war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7649364 - 11/17/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Good and evil don't exist. They are merely culturally relative terms.




then they still exist


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: the fog of war [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7649497 - 11/17/07 11:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry, Jonathan, but good and evil cannot be both inclusive and exclusive. :nono:




You're going to have to explain this a little more.

What I was saying is that they're mutually exclusive.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: the fog of war [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7649514 - 11/17/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Then you would be wrong.

Give one example of a moral that transcends culture and what you base this upon.




There are numerous examples. Just think of the most basic virtues, and go from there. We all share moral values. Diplomacy for instance is based upon this notion.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7649515 - 11/17/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I am going to have to explain your inconsistency? :wtf:

Quote:

sometimes in order to do good you have to do evil.



That is not mutual exclusivity.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: the fog of war [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7649922 - 11/18/07 02:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This defenition:

Quote:

And there is evil like sometimes hurting someone in a battle. This definition falls under harm.




is not evil. That was the distinction I was trying to make. It is not truly evil.


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: the fog of war [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7650140 - 11/18/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I say that when people do Good other people can feel their goodness and know its good most of the time.

When people do bad, no one benefits, and though people may gain material objects from bad deeds, that wont make them happy or feel good.

In classical conditioning its proven that rewarding good behavior is a much better way to learn then punishing bad behavior. This can be seen in many cases where abuse of a young child leads to homicide or pedophelia later in life.


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Offlinedruglord
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Re: the fog of war [Re: leery11]
    #7652781 - 11/18/07 09:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
i have seen it

is that dudes third eye open?

is he illuminati

good
evil

neither?
ever seen the gods must be crazy?

the dude cried over a medal

what about that? do we hold his tears in compassion

do we judge him a killer?

it was an interesting film for me to see

i think he was being truthful, i think he believed what he was doing, and it made me less conspiratorial in general

but

nothing wrong with communism darn it!




This is exactly what struck me when I watched it! McNamara actually looked 100% sincere. I had always imagined him a conniving master of deceit, but now I see him as just simple minded. The same thing happened with George Bush Sr after reading Kitty Kelly's unauthorized Bush family biography...definitely made me less conspiratorial. I guess most of these political leaders are really just dolts.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7652891 - 11/18/07 10:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Then you would be wrong.

Give one example of a moral that transcends culture and what you base this upon.




Quote:

There are numerous examples.



OK, give one like I asked.

Quote:

Just think of the most basic virtues, and go from there.



Yet another dodge.

Quote:

We all share moral values.



Wrong again. Some of us share some moral values.

Quote:

Diplomacy for instance is based upon this notion.



Diplomacy is a negotiating skill not based upon morality, but upon giving each side something that they want.

If you believe in what you say you can surely give one example of a moral that transcends culture and what you base this upon like you stated.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the fog of war [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7652899 - 11/18/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
This defenition:

Quote:

And there is evil like sometimes hurting someone in a battle. This definition falls under harm.




is not evil. That was the distinction I was trying to make. It is not truly evil.




Wearing a uniform and getting a paycheck makes killing not evil? What is the distinction besides some arbitrary line you just made up?


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