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HerbBaker


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: cactu]
#7963998 - 02/01/08 09:14 AM (16 years, 15 hours ago) |
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Thanks Workman! Cactu your words make me smile.
The 1g bioassay showed high activity.
Met Jesus and had a nice talk.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: HerbBaker]
#7964209 - 02/01/08 10:20 AM (16 years, 14 hours ago) |
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I've never met jesus during any of my bioassay experiences.
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 1,501
Loc: LA/Ventura County
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: CureCat]
#7964419 - 02/01/08 11:23 AM (16 years, 13 hours ago) |
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Ive never met jesus either.
but i have met myself and talked for a while...
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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I have met myself. We didn't talk, we yelled. Mostly in horror.
Not doing that again.
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: HerbBaker]
#7964551 - 02/01/08 11:59 AM (16 years, 13 hours ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said:Met Jesus and had a nice talk.
i met the devil once face to face. it was all too real to disregard as just a vivid hallucination.
'seemed like nice enough of a guy, all that he wanted was my soul
it took me a long time to realize that satan does not excist.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: GGreatOne234]
#7964646 - 02/01/08 12:17 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago) |
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Hey GGreatOne234, your guess at this species being Psilocybe baeocystis was real close. It still surprises me that no one can seem to find an authentic P. caerulipes.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Workman]
#7964708 - 02/01/08 12:30 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago) |
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>It still surprises me that no one can seem to find an authentic >P. caerulipes.
Kind of like no one seems to find the real Ps. cyanofibrillosa.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: CureCat]
#7964746 - 02/01/08 12:39 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago) |
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Exactly.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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HerbBaker


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Workman]
#7964850 - 02/01/08 01:00 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago) |
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Workman,wasnt mj gonna send you some spores from caerulipes?
Edited by HerbBaker (02/01/08 01:37 PM)
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HerbBaker


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: HerbBaker]
#7967035 - 02/01/08 10:45 PM (16 years, 2 hours ago) |
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It's believed Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum comes from the lower altitude Psilocybe aztecorum var. bonetii Psilocybe baeocystis (PNW) and Psilocybe quebecensis (Quebec) split from Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum (Mexico). It would seem most likely (geographically speaking) that the Maine species would be most closely related to Psilocybe quebecensis. if Psilocybe aztecorum var. bonetti was its closet ancestor it would put it on a different branch from Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum. If its closet relative is Psilocybe quebecensis, what species came first?
the mango shaped spores are actually one of the things that differentiate P.baeocystis and P.quebecensis from Psilocybe aztecorum var.aztecorum.
It seems like this species is somewhere between baeocystis and quebecensis. aztecorum has few pleurocystidia. Unknown species has none that we know of so far. baeocystis has none. quebecensis has plearocystidia.
Edited by HerbBaker (02/02/08 09:53 AM)
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: HerbBaker]
#7967161 - 02/01/08 11:19 PM (16 years, 1 hour ago) |
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The differences between both varieties of P. aztecorum and P. baeocystis are subtle. Guzman even mentions that the main difference is geographical and the species may be synonymous (page 328 TGP).
One notable feature of the Maine specimen is the occasionally bifurcate cheilocystidia. The majority have a long single neck but the forked ones are not rare. Only the P. baeocystis description mentions bifurcate cheilocystidia.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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HerbBaker


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Workman]
#7967772 - 02/02/08 07:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Workman i got my info here.. Variation, Distribution, Ethnomycological Data and Relationships of Psilocybe aztecorum, a Mexican Hallucinogenic Mushroom Gastón Guzmán Mycologia, Vol. 70, No. 2. (Mar. - Apr., 1978), pp. 385-396.
"Psilocybe baeocystis as I studied in the type (Sipe 754, Nov. 1, 1945 ; MICH) and in many collections made in the Pacific Northwest, is very hygrophanous and, in some stages, quite similar in appearance to P. aztecorum. The only difference found in the Mexican fungus is in the shape of the spores in face view. In fact, the mango form of the spores of P. baeocystis is a good character which can be used to separate it from P. aztecorum.
It is probable that P. aztecorum originated from a subtropical species such as P. mexicana Heim which has the biggest spores of all species in the subtropics, (7.7-)8.8-9.9(-12) x (5.5-)6.6-7.7(-8.2) x 6-7 pm (from the study of the type in PC) and mycenoid fruit bodies, but without a white pileus, some subrhombic spores, and terricolous to sublignicolous habitat. Psilocybe mexicana, on the other hand, seems to have had its origin from tropical terricolous species such as those recently described by the author from evergreen tropical forests, which have small spores and brown cystidia. Thus, it seems that species of Psilocybe have small spores and brown cystidia in the tropics, moderately sized spores and hyaline cystidia in the subtropics and large spores and hyaline cystidia in the temperate or cold regions. This same phylogenetic sequence is observed in the size and complexity of the spores of Scleroderwza (Guzmin, 1970), which show small and simple spores in the tropics, as in S. sinnamariense Mont., and large and complex spores in temperate forests, as in S. hypogacuwz. Thus Psilocybe aztecorum is, in Mexico, one of the most highly evolved species of the genus, and it seems that P. baeocystis and P.quebecensis had their origin from this Mexican species, through two different phylogenetic ways, through the high mountains, Psilocybe cyanescens probably had its origin from some stirp of the subtropical species, close to P. mexicana. From this point of view, P. aztecorum var. bonetii is more primitive because of its smaller spores and presence at lower elevations."
The similarity to baeocystis is interesting. Are all the basidia 4 spored like baeocystis or quebecensis? or are they 1,2,3,and 4 spored like Psilcybe aztecorum?
Maybe this is a third distinct species descended from Psilocybe aztecorum that evolved parallel and seperate to quebecensis with this scenerio the maine species could have an explainable resemblance to Psilocybe baeocystis from its initial split with Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum.
Edited by HerbBaker (02/02/08 10:18 AM)
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: HerbBaker]
#7969463 - 02/02/08 04:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Maine species does appear to be intermediate between Psilocybe aztecorum and P. baeocystis. All basidia appeared to be 4 spored.
The phylogeny in that 1978 paper is highly speculative and could easily be completely wrong. But it does highlight the importance of your collection.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Workman]
#7971434 - 02/03/08 12:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I concur on it being somewhere in the P. aztecorum/baeocystis group. Can't comment much beyond that, though, as I have precious little personal experience observing that group beyond a few oddball P. baeocystis collections from Humboldt County.
Another characteristic to look for that might "nail it" in this group – what's the hygrophanous reaction like in fresh collections? As I remember it, P. baeocystis and P. aztecorum have a particularly strong hygrophanous reaction where they fade not just to a tan color like most Psilocybe, but down to an almost off-white color.
I forget whether that's true of all members of section Aztecorum or just P. aztecorum and baeocystis. (I don't have the Guzman monography handy, unfortunately.)
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: Another characteristic to look for that might "nail it" in this group – what's the hygrophanous reaction like in fresh collections? As I remember it, P. baeocystis and P. aztecorum have a particularly strong hygrophanous reaction where they fade not just to a tan color like most Psilocybe, but down to an almost off-white color.
Quote:
Workman said: The mango shaped spores and cap fading whitish on drying seems to indicate a species in the Section Aztecorum.
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: HerbBaker]
#7972182 - 02/03/08 09:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: It's believed Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum comes from the lower altitude Psilocybe aztecorum var. bonetii Psilocybe baeocystis (PNW) and Psilocybe quebecensis (Quebec) split from Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum (Mexico). It would seem most likely (geographically speaking) that the Maine species would be most closely related to Psilocybe quebecensis. if Psilocybe aztecorum var. bonetti was its closet ancestor it would put it on a different branch from Psilocybe aztecorum var. aztecorum.
I wouldn't put to much into the concept of "subspecies" in this group. Its not like there's been any solid molecular studies or breeding experiments that would allow one to differentiate "species" from "subspecies" for this group, or, indeed, most other Psilocybe.
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: CureCat]
#7972190 - 02/03/08 09:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
CureCat said:
Quote:
Workman said: The mango shaped spores and cap fading whitish on drying seems to indicate a species in the Section Aztecorum.
Is that based on Workman having seen actual fresh collections, or just based on having seen the pics at the beginning of this thread (where its kind of hard to distinguish color)?
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HerbBaker


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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i didnt say anything about subspecies. The fading of the caps is real.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: Is that based on Workman having seen actual fresh collections, or just based on having seen the pics at the beginning of this thread (where its kind of hard to distinguish color)?
I don't know. I was just pointing out that workman had the same thoughts.
The photos are not hard for me to distinguish. I can see that a lot of those have faded to a very light, almost off-white colour.
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HerbBaker


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: CureCat]
#7972570 - 02/03/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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oh ok.
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