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OfflineBoulderBoomer
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: sleepy]
    #7895810 - 01/18/08 01:12 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah you're right Stroph, I confused that price with testing for the presence of metals.  When sequencing DNA, isn't it possible to compare two samples and determine if they are the same species? I'm generalizing of course, I'm sure the procedure is more complex, but isn't the general idea possible?  Assume for a second I'm not a geneticist before tearing me a new one :wink:


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: BoulderBoomer]
    #7896007 - 01/18/08 03:18 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

BoulderBoomer said:
When sequencing DNA, isn't it possible to compare two samples and determine if they are the same species? I'm generalizing of course, I'm sure the procedure is more complex, but isn't the general idea possible?



Your question is really hard to answer because there is no "yes" or "no".

First of, it is possible to compare two samples and determine if they are different species, but not necessarily if they are the same species. The first problem is that you are not going to get a good perspective of the variation within a species by only having one or two collections to compare. The next issue is how closely related are the collections being compared? If you are not able to definitively say whether they are different species, then you have the trouble of deciding if in fact they are the same species, sub-species, strains, or a different species by only a few distinct base pairs.

So I suppose the "general idea" is maybe possible. I mean, like you said, it's way more complex. It would be like trying to mow the lawn with a pair of scissors. It might work. But there are other methods that are used ALONG WITH sequencing, in order to sort one species from another. Gene sequencing is only a tool, not a machine that spits out answers.


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7896944 - 01/18/08 10:45 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
warriorsoul sent me a sample, here are a few photos.

I only spent a couple minutes looking at it so I can't say for sure, but from what I have seen so far, this could be P. caerulipes. It doesn't have the subrhomboid spores of P. ovoideocystidiata.




Oh nice! I was hoping it wasn't another P. ovoideocystidia. I will do some careful measuring when I get a sample and see how it measures up. I am pretty excited now!


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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: Workman]
    #7897419 - 01/18/08 01:29 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Nice pics!Thanks!what size is the spore?
I know it wasnt an ovoid because of the lack of annulus.
i think some of the confusion may have to do with the incurved margin,
not any other good pictures of it really.
but it is part of caerulipes description
it is also described as the cap sometimes being very irregular.:thumbup:

Look  forward to your findings workman!


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Some things can grow without the light.--RJD


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Invisiblecactu
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: HerbBaker]
    #7899339 - 01/18/08 09:31 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

that look like a new one great work alan and warrior soul


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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: cactu]
    #7900892 - 01/19/08 09:35 AM (16 years, 13 days ago)

What makes you think that Cactu?
it looks like it has the features of caerulipes
i guess we will know more when Workman does his measuring.


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Some things can grow without the light.--RJD


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: HerbBaker]
    #7901506 - 01/19/08 12:39 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

I think he meant new, as in new to us instead of new to science.

This still could be Psilocybe quebecensis as some of the spores could be considered mango-shaped but then there should be pleurocystidia. Its too bad there isn't a scale for those photos, but maybe there is something I can do about that.

Ok, check this out. I took the images that Alan did of spores at 1000x of some of the same collections that I have also done at 1000x. By measuring both his images and my own and taking the average I have come up with a crude conversion to get a rough idea of the size of the spores. On average, Alan's images are 3.6 microns larger than my own. So after measuring the spores of the Maine sample and subtracting 3.6 I come up with a size range of 9-14 microns. This could be off by as much as 1 micron (or more) but it gets us in the ballpark.

There are three known bluing psilocybes in the NE US.

Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata (spores rhomboid (7)8-9(12))
Psilocybe caerulipes (spores ellipsoid 7-10 microns)
Psilocybe quebecensis (spores ellipsoid-subovoid-mango 8-14(16) microns)

Workman's crude estimate 9-14 microns

I can definately see some mango shaped spores and the spore size appears larger than expected for Psilocybe caerulipes. There is a good chance that this species is actually Psilocybe quebecensis but I won't know for sure until I have a sample in hand.


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Edited by Workman (01/19/08 05:28 PM)


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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: Workman]
    #7902873 - 01/19/08 06:32 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

Wow!
It may be Psilocybe quebecensis,some of the mushrooms are very hemispheric.
But where is the pleurocystidia?
its very distinctive with their swollen apices.
like cubensis and cyanescens
also no mention of a forked cheilocystidia with quebecensis.

very interesting this may be a new species after all

i dont know what this means but
psilocybe baoeocystis has mango shaped spores 10-12
and pleurocystidia is absent.

i wonder if all the basidia was 4 spored...


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: HerbBaker]
    #7903044 - 01/19/08 07:14 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

The pleurocystidia might be present but just not photographed. Alan didn't show pleurocystidia on your Pluteus but they exist. And I wouldn't put too much stock in my spore size estimate. It will be interesting to see how close my estimate is to reality though.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #7903112 - 01/19/08 07:28 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

Did you take lots of prints? A chilly resistant strain could be valuable to us growers. -not to perverse commercialy- ,......0my hands are out :p


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InvisibleBaldCuban
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: HerbBaker]
    #7903986 - 01/19/08 11:05 PM (16 years, 13 days ago)

Very interesting indeed. Keep up the great work, everyone!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: Workman]
    #7904168 - 01/20/08 12:07 AM (16 years, 13 days ago)

The first two pictures are Panaeolus subbalteatus spores (darker, for size) next to a spore from this collection.





Next we have two basidium pics:





At first I thought these were pleurocystidia, but then I thought they might just be parts of basidium.

I spent a while looking for pleurocystidia and wasn't able to find anything else.





Cheilocystidia, broken away from the gill edge and stained blue.



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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7907892 - 01/20/08 11:13 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

If those Panaeolus subbalteatus spores are typical in size then my estimate is too high. Those structures are indeed basidia and basidioles and I see nothing pleurocystidia-like. Looks like we are back into the realm of P. caerulipes. I just need to wait until I get a sample in hand.


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Edited by Workman (01/20/08 11:28 PM)


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Offlinekactusking
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #7914959 - 01/22/08 02:36 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

Fuckin cool.


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: New Strain of Psilocybe? [Re: kactusking]
    #7915040 - 01/22/08 02:56 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

i dont suppose theres a chance these beauties will grow in the spring?


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Workman]
    #7962948 - 02/01/08 12:08 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I finally got a sample to examine and its not what I expected. Weird stuff. You might expect to collect known species in the NE like Psilocybe caerulipes or P. quebecensis, but instead recent collections turn out to be other things.

This appears to be a new species in the Section Aztecorum or at the very least a range extension of an existing species. A significant and unusual find worthy of further study.


Spores: ellipsoid to mango shaped (9.2)10-13(14.6) by 5.7-7.3(9.7) microns. Close to my 9-14 micron estimate based on Alan's microscopy.

Compare to:
P. baeocystis (8.5)9.5-13.7(17) by (5)5.5-6.6(7.1)
P. aztecorum var. bonetti (9)10-13(14) by 6-7.5(8)

Cheilocystidia: 19-31 by 5.3-8.6 microns occasionally bifurcate, very rarely trifurcate.

Compare to:
P. baeocystis 20-32(44) by 4.4-6(9)
P. aztecorum 20-45 by 5-8.2

Pleurocystidia: absent or very rare. A few bifurcate structures observed that might be pleurocystidia. More observations needed.

Basidia: 26-32 microns.

The mango shaped spores and cap fading whitish on drying seems to indicate a species in the Section Aztecorum.

The lack of common pleurocystidia rules out P. quebecensis.

P. caerulipes also has smaller spores and the cap doesn't fade whitish as seen in the Maine photo.


Psilocybe baeocystis is a good match microscopically but the spores are a bit too wide and that species is only known from the NW coast of the US.

A better match is Psilocybe aztecorum var. bonetii but this species is only known from the high mountains of Central Mexico (elevation 2000-3200 meters). It may be possible that the mountain climate is similar to Maine's climate.

A whole specimen should be sent to Gaston Guzman for examination. I'm sure a paper would soon follow.



--------------------
Research funded by the patrons of
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Exotic Spore Supply

My Instagram
Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification :amanitajar:


Edited by Workman (02/01/08 12:45 AM)


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Invisiblesui
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Workman]
    #7963171 - 02/01/08 01:24 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Workman said:
I finally got a sample to examine and its not what I expected. Weird stuff. You might expect to collect known species in the NE like Psilocybe caerulipes or P. quebecensis, but instead recent collections turn out to be other things.

This appears to be a new species in the Section Aztecorum or at the very least a range extension of an existing species. A significant and unusual find worthy of further study.


Spores: ellipsoid to mango shaped (9.2)10-13(14.6) by 5.7-7.3(9.7) microns. Close to my 9-14 micron estimate based on Alan's microscopy.

Compare to:
P. baeocystis (8.5)9.5-13.7(17) by (5)5.5-6.6(7.1)
P. aztecorum var. bonetti (9)10-13(14) by 6-7.5(8)

Cheilocystidia: 19-31 by 5.3-8.6 microns occasionally bifurcate, very rarely trifurcate.

Compare to:
P. baeocystis 20-32(44) by 4.4-6(9)
P. aztecorum 20-45 by 5-8.2

Pleurocystidia: absent or very rare. A few bifurcate structures observed that might be pleurocystidia. More observations needed.

Basidia: 26-32 microns.

The mango shaped spores and cap fading whitish on drying seems to indicate a species in the Section Aztecorum.

The lack of common pleurocystidia rules out P. quebecensis.

P. caerulipes also has smaller spores and the cap doesn't fade whitish as seen in the Maine photo.


Psilocybe baeocystis is a good match microscopically but the spores are a bit too wide and that species is only known from the NW coast of the US.

A better match is Psilocybe aztecorum var. bonetii but this species is only known from the high mountains of Central Mexico (elevation 2000-3200 meters). It may be possible that the mountain climate is similar to Maine's climate.

A whole specimen should be sent to Gaston Guzman for examination. I'm sure a paper would soon follow.







WOW!

yet again im amazed. Awesome work workman!!!


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Offlinecasgoodie
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: sui]
    #7963205 - 02/01/08 01:42 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

congratulations, nice to see a new species


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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: casgoodie]
    #7963271 - 02/01/08 02:19 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Congrats Warrior, thats fuckin rad.


--------------------
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus.
All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter, while the
octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV.
But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns.
Also he got a race car.
Is any of this getting through to you?


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Invisiblecactu
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Re: Psilocybe aztecorum in Maine? [Re: Deity208]
    #7963849 - 02/01/08 08:29 AM (16 years, 18 hours ago)

you see , jaja , sice the begining of this thread i see your mushroooms where special , and the work of alan tell lot of things ,well then wm , define beuty , now only last for guzman to put it in heaven so we can all look at it ,

mexico share many especies with the east side of usa, in fact the last distribution of many species of tree and mushrooms end in mexico , in the valley of central mexico they grow in pinus hartewwiiand abies religiossa forest , aparently var . bonetii have been found in puebla, and there is a record i guees fron veracruz and hidalgo all in the east side of mexico,

when i lookk at your mushrooms they seem very familiar , and the impresion they gave me was of a new species, that i can almost garanty they will, so happy for you , and more and more i believe what jacobo grinberg said distance is a delusion , we are all conected,and we are one...........

all my best vibrations the address of gaston guzman are in the official north west thread and email.


--------------------

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