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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Anthony Bordaine's quote
    #7598930 - 11/05/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was watching an episode where he goes to Szechuan province, he said something that I found pretty remarkable.


"I've always felt that the true measure of the greatness of a culture is exemplified by what it's poorest, and most rural people cook. Food that tastes good because it has to be good. How to make the tough, the bland, the humble, into something truely special. This is where throughout history and across the globe, cooks are made."


When you think about it, many of the most popular creations in cuisine have come from impoverish circumstances. Pizza was originally made because peasants couldn't afford tupperware to place food in, so they would make plates out of dough.

Tortilla, burritos, tacos, tamales, originally were developed as a means for poor farm workers to carry their meals in during long stretches of labor.

Even the cheesesteak was a means for meat packaging workers in Philadelphia to utilize and eat the rejected cuts of beef.


Pretty neat stuff.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Offlinesnoot
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7598947 - 11/05/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would have too totally agree with bordaine.


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7598957 - 11/05/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Tony is the shit. One of my role models.


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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: CureCat]
    #7600398 - 11/05/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was thinking this same thing when I was reading Le Bec Fin thread review. I've eaten at some very nice restaurants, and the dishes were good, but not as good as other people have made it out to be. When I think of real food it was the random street vendor at a night market in Taiwan or some hole in the wall family restaurant in Italy. The quote is absolutely true, and a lot of food is from what the destitute making the most of what they had.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7601583 - 11/06/07 08:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidSmoke said:
"I've always felt that the true measure of the greatness of a culture is exemplified by what it's poorest, and most rural people cook.



While I like the guy, liked watching his show and reading his book, I must say that I have to disagree. The true measure of a culture is exemplified by food? I must say, that in my opinion the true measure of a culture has got very little to do with food.


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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: TheCow]
    #7603363 - 11/06/07 04:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I can't think of anything else that affects all the people of a certain culture, probably at least twice a day, every day.


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Invisiblesucklesworth
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: TheCow]
    #7603372 - 11/06/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You might think differently if obtaining your food wasn't so easy as to hop down to your local grocery.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: sucklesworth]
    #7603704 - 11/06/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I can and have lived off eating bland food day in and day out without too much trouble or hatred. So if the poor people eat bland or tasty food is really of no importance in the grand scheme of things to me. I find art/science/politics to be something that is far greater in terms of the worth of a culture. Tasty food is nice, advanced science is far far nicer, I mean orders and orders upon orders of magnitude nicer.


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Food as Culture [Re: TheCow]
    #7604872 - 11/06/07 09:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

When I personally think of culture, I think of the arts and history of any grouping of peoples, places, things, or time. 

How we divide any group can be done in so many ways... there can be racial culture, societal culture, gender culture, pop culture, and more.  If we only focus on the culture of a specific nation or period of time, then I can see how science will often play a very prominent role as to that culture's base.  But when focusing upon the culture of a gender, a race, a thing or only a small place, it becomes easier to recognize arts that touch upon these groups where indeed science may not play any role at all.  When this is the case, it seems silly to consider it lacking of culture simply due to a lacking of scientific contribution.  It is merely a different sort of culture.

Quote:

TheCow said:

I find art/science/politics to be something that is far greater in terms of the worth of a culture.



May food not be a form of art?  The food we eat begins with an assortment of ingredients (think paint), subsequently mixed, seasoned, blended, complimented, and formed into a finished piece fit not only to satisfy our requisite for metabolic energy, but a creation to heighten and bring pleasure to our senses!  Isn't that what art is all about, something that excites our senses and inspires within us emotion?

In the end and as exhibited by Bordaine's quote, it is in how we personally define a culture, that we will be able to recognize the types of contributions emanating from it.  Not all cultures are equal, but it seems rather arbitrary to assign worth to culture.  Each one may hold different strengths, and in rare instances one may not even share any comparable traits to another.

Different strokes for different folks! :biggrin:

Of course, seeing as this is the Culinary Arts forum - it surely seems appropriate to recognize that food is indeed a culture all its own, not necessarily dependent upon any specific grouping of nations or peoples, but of all nations and all peoples. 

Ponder that one for a while, lest I grind you up and make a hamburger! :wink:





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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: TheCow]
    #7605329 - 11/06/07 11:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This may sound like a weird question but humor me anyway, please.

Are you Jewish?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: geokills]
    #7605639 - 11/07/07 05:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well yes food could be considered art, however it does not span the vector space known as art, it is only a subspace. While I enjoy food, my only point was that tasty food is a luxury, a good one, but nothing more to me. I survived off of rice and sometimes chicken for a long time and it wasn't that bad at all. It literally had almost no flavor but for the 5-10 minutes out of my day that I was eating it per meal, it really almost was irrelevant to me. Now today I eat much better of course, and do enjoy those 5-10 minutes that I am eating a delicious meal.

However, lets take the Greeks as an example. Lets say that you took away all of their political and scientific accomplishments, so no more democracy, and no more philosophy. However they had delicious food, is this a superior culture to one with advanced philosophy and science but bland food? Honestly in my opinion the choice is quite easy. However I guess to each his own.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7605641 - 11/07/07 05:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No I am not. But I know what you are implying with that


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: TheCow]
    #7606921 - 11/07/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:

[Let's] take the Greeks as an example. Lets say that you took away all of their political and scientific accomplishments, so no more democracy, and no more philosophy. However they had delicious food, is this a superior culture to one with advanced philosophy and science but bland food? Honestly in my opinion the choice is quite easy. However I guess to each his own.



Indeed, to each his own. However, consider by what measure are you discerning superiority. I cannot believe that science and philosophy are the only qualifiers indicative of a "superior" culture, as each culture must be examined from within the confines of its own capabilities, and whether or not they are realizing the potentials of these capabilities.

What of a small island culture. They have not the physical/natural resources to compete with a nationstate as large as the Greeks; and though without such scientific and philosophical advancements, they may not be burdened by the systemic problems that arise through the modern societal structure. What if this grouping is content living in peace on a small island, sustainably and within their means and with all the comforts that a human could potentially have extracted given the resources that are available to them? And what if, because of the need to be smart about the allocation of their resources, they live with less of the misery that can plague the class structure of a modern society? Might this small island culture be superior with respect to the individual's happiness and therefore quality of life? Might they be superior in relation to their efficient use of the resources they have available to them - even if those resources cannot provide for the same level of scientific advancement as the Greeks may have had?

Indeed perhaps the peoples of this small island culture may not have the life saving medicine that a modern society could provide, but even in modern society not all members have access to said medical advancement. Therefore it would seem - in my humble opinion - that to attempt to set a standard for the aggregate worth or superiority of any given culture against another, is an exercise in futility.

The only reason I am harping on this, is that it seems you have taken a very narrow-minded approach to the whole idea of culture. I fully understand that you personally do not consider the simple luxury of good food as adding much value to a culture - but I contend that each culture being evaluated must be done independent of others, as the worth of a culture should be intrinsically related to how well it does with what it has, not about what it may have done with something it never knew.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: geokills]
    #7607942 - 11/07/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes I understand your point, however it is far different then what the original question is. His quote was merely to do with the worth of a culture being related to food. That is it. Your utopian island, (of which frankly I have never seen evidence of), do you have an example? But your island has little to do with his quote. If they had good food they would be a good culture, irrelevent to anything else. However if they do not have good food they would be a bad culture. That is his point, so I do not understand your point really.

However to address your points, yes I feel that this small culture has a less developed culture then the Greeks would have. The fact that they are content is no excuse for not developing their philosophy/science. The Greeks after all, were a very fragmented people and thus some groups like in Athens were small and content for periods of time without war. Yet they still developed advanced science and philosophy. They didnt need running water, or knowledge of math, but they still pursued it.

Of course your example describes a veritable utopia where people have no need of any such science or philosophy, however I doubt highly that such a place could exist just based off of human nature. Once again an example would be nice. So is it your contention that the taste of a cultures food is more important then its advancement of the arts (sans food of course) or the sciences?


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: TheCow]
    #7607950 - 11/07/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
survived off of rice and sometimes chicken for a long time and it wasn't that bad at all. It literally had almost no flavor but for the 5-10 minutes out of my day that I was eating it per meal, it really almost was irrelevant to me. Now today I eat much better of course, and do enjoy those 5-10 minutes that I am eating a delicious meal.

However, lets take the Greeks as an example. Lets say that you took away all of their political and scientific accomplishments, so no more democracy, and no more philosophy. However they had delicious food, is this a superior culture to one with advanced philosophy and science but bland food? Honestly in my opinion the choice is quite easy. However I guess to each his own.






I think it's more of an issue of what's universal in cultures across the globe. There are many cultures in past and present, which really have done zero in any realm of science and politics. You can even argue that the creation of science and politics are aspects of a culture themselves.

But I you will be very hard pressed to find any culture in the world where the cuisine isn't an essential part of its heritage.

The culture of cuisine is ALOT more universal than politics and science. That's basically what i'm getting at.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: TheCow]
    #7608266 - 11/07/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:

So is it your contention that the taste of a cultures food is more important then its advancement of the arts (sans food of course) or the sciences?



I personally believe that the types of food presented by any given culture can be considered just as important to that culture's heritage, as any other specific aspect of culture such as science or politics. As LiquidSmoke pointed out, food is probably one of the most universal aspects of culture, and I do think that was probably the whole point of this thread. Culture is culture is culture. It is a product of historic cataloging and I find little reason to value one culture against another. Different cultures merely are.

But indeed I do digress.


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Offlinezathan
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: geokills]
    #7608913 - 11/07/07 09:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I appreciate a fine meal with the most humble background more than any picaso painting. The history, the passion, and the flavors crafted by people who pride themselves in what they've created. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7609899 - 11/08/07 03:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes but I think everyone needs to re-read his quote, you guys seem to be reading more into it then he is saying. All he is saying is that culture is exemplified by what the poor eat, that's it. And I heartily disagree, I think a culture might be "exemplified" by how they treat the poor, so welfare, workers rights, anti-child working laws, stuff in that vein far more then what the poor eat and if it tastes good. Honestly British food isn't good, the poor people ate stuff several hundred years ago that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole (except their delicious meat pies). However the British culture as a whole was one of the most well developed and interesting in humanities history.


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Invisiblesucklesworth
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: TheCow]
    #7610118 - 11/08/07 07:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I like gathering my own food. Its fun and also tasted good dipped in ranch.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: sucklesworth]
    #7610672 - 11/08/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This thread is full of blowhard pseudo-philosophy and idiotic remarks made by people who consider themselves more intelligent than they could ever really be.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7611031 - 11/08/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
:brow:




Edited by TheCow (11/08/07 12:57 PM)


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Invisiblesucklesworth
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Re: Anthony Bordaine's quote [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7611281 - 11/08/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

if chicken and rice aint culture, I don't know what is


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Senor_doobie just ain't no fun... without a dollop of Ranch to quell his restless soul! [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7611549 - 11/08/07 02:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Lighten up, buddy! :razz:


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Re: Food as Culture [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7611623 - 11/08/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
This thread is full of blowhard pseudo-philosophy and idiotic remarks made by people who consider themselves more intelligent than they could ever really be.





:brushteeth:  :thumbup:


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I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -


Edited by snoot (11/08/07 06:50 PM)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7617573 - 11/10/07 03:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I owe you all an apology.

Sorry for being an asshole.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7620067 - 11/10/07 07:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Aw shucks.. Words just can't say it as swell as a bottle of the good ol' Hidden Valley! :tongue2:



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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Food as Culture [Re: geokills]
    #7632765 - 11/13/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

another good Bordaine quote

"It's nearly impossible to find good mexican food in New York"


--I agree entirely.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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