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hummermania00
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Evolution Of The Brain
#7598505 - 11/05/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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OK, so while I was reading the OP for the thread "what i think god is"; my thoughts turned a little away from where the thread actually went. Hence, a new thread to tangent a little. My opinion is that aside from the technical and scientific advances made in knowledge, and experience in those arts, the human brain remains largely unchanged over millennia, actually since recorded history. I mean this in the emotional sense: There is no difference in love expressed between 2 lovers in Mesopotamia long ago, and (your city) today. There is no difference in the political treachery expressed with Caesar, and, say, Clinton's impeachment. People love, hate, betray, defend, ignore, support, ally, the same way now as we have for many thousands of years.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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EternalCowabunga
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I've sometimes wondered if philosophies like Humanism and Existentialism really influenced the brain of man or whether they were nothing more than ideals which we might have thought we were reaching towards but just expressing the same old behaviors and then rationalizing them differently after the fact. I've got a lot of reading to do, I want to really educate myself on this
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hummermania00
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I've sometimes wondered if philosophies like Humanism and Existentialism really influenced the brain of man or whether they were nothing more than ideals which we might have thought we were reaching towards but just expressing the same old behaviors and then rationalizing them differently after the fact. I've got a lot of reading to do, I want to really educate myself on this
Yes, and it seems that each generation thinks that they are really on to some earth shattering revelation in this regard, when in fact the emotions are the same.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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trendal
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Actually new findings are casting doubt on to the theory that human brains have not evolved much in the 2 million or so years that we've been around here.
One, in particular, catches my attention. There is a gene responsible (among other things) for the dramatic growth in brain size experienced those 2 million years ago. Without the gene, your brain size would not change much from a fetus on...you end up with a condition called "microencephaly".
There is a mutated form of that gene, which mutated about 6000 years ago - right about the time humans were starting cities. The mutated form is suspected of increasing intelligence by increasing the function of "helper cells" in your brain, as well as affecting the growth of new nerve cells.
Anyone who thinks evolution has just stopped working on us had better take a second look at the evidence
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7598878 - 11/05/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Difference between intelligence and emotional capacity. It's obvious that we have increased in intelligence over recorded history but emotionally we is ever the same.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ZShroom
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601303 - 11/06/07 02:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Difference between intelligence and emotional capacity. It's obvious that we have increased in intelligence over recorded history but emotionally we is ever the same.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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remember that for BILLIONS of years there was life on earth without any brain of any kind
the majority of the biomass today on earth has no brain
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fireworks_god
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601367 - 11/06/07 03:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It's obvious that we have increased in intelligence over recorded history but emotionally we is ever the same.
This is questionable. I think the advancement has simply been more gradual, I don't think that there has not been progress, and I think that we have reached a point in time where the rate of change in this regard will begin to advance more signfigantly. The exchange of information today is unparalleled compared to even a very short time ago, on our scale, and never before has humanity, as a whole, everywhere on this planet, been so interconnected. I think this implies a lot in regards to human evolution, behavior, and experience.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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hummermania00
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Icelander said: It's obvious that we have increased in intelligence over recorded history but emotionally we is ever the same.
This is questionable. I think the advancement has simply been more gradual, I don't think that there has not been progress, and I think that we have reached a point in time where the rate of change in this regard will begin to advance more signfigantly. The exchange of information today is unparalleled compared to even a very short time ago, on our scale, and never before has humanity, as a whole, everywhere on this planet, been so interconnected. I think this implies a lot in regards to human evolution, behavior, and experience.
It is entirely possible that emotional capacity would change over time as FWG alluded to; simply because of the amount of emotions we deal with daily, weekly, has increased. (and, true enough, will accelerate as the speed of information and knowledge advances)
Are you also suggesting that the emotional feelings themselves will somehow change; either increase or diminish in intensity, or for example that love and hate as we have know them, and know them today will somehow change? Perhaps you could expand on your comment?
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Icelander
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Icelander said: It's obvious that we have increased in intelligence over recorded history but emotionally we is ever the same.
This is questionable. I think the advancement has simply been more gradual, I don't think that there has not been progress, and I think that we have reached a point in time where the rate of change in this regard will begin to advance more signfigantly. The exchange of information today is unparalleled compared to even a very short time ago, on our scale, and never before has humanity, as a whole, everywhere on this planet, been so interconnected. I think this implies a lot in regards to human evolution, behavior, and experience.
I see no evidence whatsoever for you stance on emotional evolution. So we exchange information faster? That's intelligence and has nothing to do with emotional health.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601729 - 11/06/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Difference between intelligence and emotional capacity. It's obvious that we have increased in intelligence over recorded history but emotionally we is ever the same.
Are we?
Isn't our emotion filtered through our intelligent brain? Could emotion even be "experienced", in the human way, without our intelligent cerebrum?
I don't think it can.
As our intellectual abilities develop, how our emotions are experienced must also change.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7601731 - 11/06/07 09:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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First we feel, then we think about how we feel.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601733 - 11/06/07 09:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I see no evidence whatsoever for you stance on emotional evolution. So we exchange information faster? That's intelligence and has nothing to do with emotional health.
How can you separate the two so cleanly? Do you have two brains, one for emotion and one for intelligence?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601739 - 11/06/07 09:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: First we feel, then we think about how we feel.
How could it be any different? That does not mean that what we feel and what we think are two different things...just that one happens before another.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7601740 - 11/06/07 09:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mid brain (limbic) front brain (neo-cortex) both evolved seperately.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601754 - 11/06/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mid brain (limbic) front brain (neo-cortex) both evolved seperately.

My dear Icelander...did you just say that?
No part of our anatomy developed entirely separate from any other part. Two parts that are part of the same organ and right beside each other certainly did not "evolve separately".
The mid brain developed long before the neo-cortex did...long before there were mammals even...but it did not stop developing then. It continued to refine itself in combination with the developing neo-cortex.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7601763 - 11/06/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry, I meant developed seperately.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601778 - 11/06/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Same thing.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7601795 - 11/06/07 09:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well if we had a mid brain before we had a front brain then we had emotions and didn't rationalize them. Now we do but IMO that changes nothing about the emotions. Show me some solid evidence of emotional evolution in humans in recorded history.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ApJunkie
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601831 - 11/06/07 09:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, we used to make slaves battle to the death in giant arenas, now we don't even eat chickens without feeling guilty. Is that not emotional evolution?
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601848 - 11/06/07 09:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hahaha, and how would I show that? Show you that something as subjective as the experience of emotion has changed? lol
How about I show you that emotions are, in fact, filtered through our cortex before experiencing them?
http://www.thebrainwiki.com/pmwiki.php?n=Forebrain.LimbicSystem
The limbic system (it's in the fore brain...not the mid brain) is responsible for emotion. It is directly connected to the neocortex and the hypothalamus: "The limbic cortex is connected in one direction with widespread neocortical areas and in another direction with the hypothalamus."
Actually, looking at it, the limbic system doesn't receive connections from our senses at all.
Is emotion experienced before thinking about something? It doesn't appear so...
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7601899 - 11/06/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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OK I'll admit that the little I know about brain function I got (probably wrong) from Veritas.
Is emotion experienced before thinking about something? It doesn't appear so...
So please explain how we experienced emotions before the development of the neo-cortex?
I see no evidence of emotional evolution in human actions in recorded history. That's the subject I'm interested in addressing here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: ApJunkie]
#7601905 - 11/06/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ApJunkie said: Well, we used to make slaves battle to the death in giant arenas, now we don't even eat chickens without feeling guilty. Is that not emotional evolution?
No, I don't think acting in politically correct ways says anything about our underlying emotional states. All the basic actions you mention still go on in altered form, motivated IMO, by the same basic emotional states.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Icelander]
#7601942 - 11/06/07 10:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So please explain how we experienced emotions before the development of the neo-cortex?
I can't, because I'm a creature with "intelligence" (as are all mammals) so I can't know what it's like to experience emotion without analysis.
The "reptile brain", as it's called, takes most of its input from internal processes...things like hormones in the blood, feedback from the autonomous nervous system, that kind of thing. So it's safe to say that reptiles (and lower animals containing a limbic system) experienced emotion as a result of internal processes (which may themselves be in response to outside stimuli).
In humans, the limbic system is still closely tied to internal processes, but it is also closely tied to our memory recording parts of the brain. That's how people can block out memories that are painful to them...it's their limbic system affecting memory formation.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Nova


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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7601983 - 11/06/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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What about using our new big brains to create empathogens to encourage emotional evolution? Imagine if everyone took it, a 'soma' of sorts. Wouldn't you agree that it would have a significant impact on the world?
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shakercee
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Nova]
#7602018 - 11/06/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You mean a viagra for emotions
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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hummermania00
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: ApJunkie]
#7602056 - 11/06/07 10:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ApJunkie said: Well, we used to make slaves battle to the death in giant arenas, now we don't even eat chickens without feeling guilty. Is that not emotional evolution?
What is the difference between the slaves in the arena and the "ultimate fighting arena"(s) of today - other than the choice of the participants. The onlookers are still feeding off the same emotional frenzy then as now. And, who feels guilty about eating a chicken? and why? I certainly don't.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Veritas

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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7602095 - 11/06/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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As Icelander is mainly relating information which I have discussed with him, I'll try to clarify what he has posted.
Here is a link to a site which explains the Triune Brain Theory:
http://www.kheper.net/topics/intelligence/MacLean.htm
It seems highly unlikely that reptiles experience emotions, as their brain is all "R" and no limbic or neocortex. Mammals are the only animals with a neocortex, though non-primates do not have a highly-developed NC, and they all display the characteristic nurturing behaviors associated with the limbic system.
The R-brain and limbic system have much more influence over the neocortex than vice-versa, though the communication is definitely two-way. The more-ancient portions of our brain have served us well, and kept us alive long enough to evolve the "new" brain. 
Sensory input definitely goes through the ancient brain first, contrary to your claim that the limbic system does not receive this input directly.
Quote:
The mid-brain and brainstem regions of the central nervous system are early centers in the processing pathway for sensory integration. These brain regions are involved in processes including coordination, attention, arousal, and autonomic function. After sensory information passes through these centers, it is then routed to brain regions responsible for emotions, memory, and higher level cognitive functions.
My understanding is that the R-Brain (brain stem) gets the incoming data from our body, the limbic system compares the data to data we have received in the past, generates an emotional reaction, and THEN the neocortex gets into the act by becoming aware of all the impulses being generated in the old brain. We can certainly alter the reactions through our conscious thoughts, either to sustain or curtail or exaggerate these ancient survival and emotional memory reactions, but it is inaccurate to claim that we think first.
Edited by Veritas (11/06/07 11:16 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Veritas]
#7602130 - 11/06/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Pirates are humans that only have an "Arrrr!" brain.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: trendal]
#7602190 - 11/06/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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BTW, the OP did not claim that the human brain has not evolved over the past 2 million years, he said "since recorded history," which is about 5500 years ago, if we count from the earliest written language. You said:
Quote:
There is a mutated form of that gene, which mutated about 6000 years ago - right about the time humans were starting cities. The mutated form is suspected of increasing intelligence by increasing the function of "helper cells" in your brain, as well as affecting the growth of new nerve cells.
Which does not conflict with his claim whatsoever. The human brain HAS been the same for about 6000 years, so you do not disagree with the OP. Our emotional life is likely very similar to that of an ancient Sumerian.
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YeagerBomb
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: Veritas]
#7604849 - 11/06/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Graham Hancock thinks Man became more intelligent and artistic thousands of years ago when humans first consumed the Mushrooms and Plants that cause such awesome thought. But that's pretty retarded.
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ZShroom
Stranger


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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: YeagerBomb]
#7605243 - 11/06/07 11:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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how is that pretty retarded. After having consuming some of these plants myself, I think it is pretty possible that that is what has happend. I mean look at the cave man, he was just smart enough to catch food and make fire. Now we are embarking on a technological evolution with computers and such, in a very short amount of time. Many people say that evolution is the act of people turning into gods. Look around you, how many things, people, animals, and landscapes are YOU in charge of....pretty amazing if you ask me
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YeagerBomb
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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: ZShroom]
#7605453 - 11/07/07 01:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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YEeeeeeeeeeeeeah but if you break it down and think about that thoroughly it doesn't make sense. Like, if we gave monkeys plants or shrooms I doubt it would have any effect on their evolution.
But I've never personally fed a monkey mushrooms, so who knows?
Edited by YeagerBomb (11/07/07 01:10 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Evolution Of The Brain [Re: YeagerBomb]
#7605534 - 11/07/07 02:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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well the presence of mutations in the large human population is expected, but the term evolution requires more than mutation, selection has to favor one or another change.
what we are seeing in man is nonvolution more than evolution.
our values - really good values too - saved my life several times: compassion favors the weak ones. i.e our hospitals and social services rescue the mutants. many of these breed, and this alters the genetic pool.
so what we have is wider ranges of humans.
evolution would require that some of the groups of mutations were selected against (sounds like racial cleansing or worse) so that some traits could emerge and strengthen, such as color of skin, slant of eye, texture of hair... (this has already happenned several times)
eventually after enough cruelty, the descendents of the combattants would have diverged adequately that if they mated they would not bear children, new species would have formed (sorry neanderthal, I want to think I would have tried to resist the culling).
that would be evolution.
we might be past that and maybe not.
now as for structures in the brain and emotion. the function of the structures is just implicated, i.e. known to be involved, but not known to be responsible.
take emotion for instance, emotion is memory with body feelings. i.e. upon experiencing something you recall something in a flash and in that memory a body area was affected pleasurably or painfully, this is the general case of all emotion. memories with body feelings (pleasure or pain or indifference) washing over the current experience.
parts of the brain that are involved with memory recall will be activated. but so will parts that are involved with ongoing mentation and sensation.
all the parts work together for the experiencing to happen.
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