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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Sprouting seeds on purpose?
    #7592445 - 11/03/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ok so for humans at least, i read seeds are overall more healthy when sprouted.

I figuer the biggest reason sprouting is avoided is water content. However I think their are ways around this, for example mixing half and half...sprouts/seeds.

Anyone tried anything like this? What were the results? Anyone know the chemical makeup of each (sprouts/seeds) and which ones mushrooms in general like?


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7596144 - 11/04/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

roots invite bacterial infection, dead roots at least.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: Cheezit]
    #7596249 - 11/04/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

but after pc'ing it should be all sterile?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7596613 - 11/04/07 09:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It would be sterile mush. Cultivators who have had grains sprout during the soak, but used them anyway have almost always reported failure. The mycelium wants whole grains, not grass.
RR


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OfflineCerebro
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7598543 - 11/05/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I am doing the same thing sprouting. I hear where both you & Roger are coming from. People say the sprouts convert the starches into sugars robbing them of the mycelium. But will there be less bacterial endospores on the grain/beans probably. A cool thing to do with sprouts to kill off bacterium is add H2O2 to the water. It also speeds up growth; try that with mycelium and you'll harm it. Ever time I PC a jar I think I am making a seed endosperm for the mycelium. How plants escape bacteria is by producing "Plantibiotics" called paciferans.

The chemical make of:

SEEDS: Starch, sugars, sitosterol, B-amylase, pterocarpans(beans), protein, nucleotides

Sprouts: the above chemicals plus diamines(diaminopropane, putrescine, cadaverine, spermine)

Note: birds prefer sprouted seeds over dormant ones because of the protein content. Beer makers malt(sprout) grains because of the different flavors and to increase vitamin C content.

Best for sprouting beans and corn cause of their size mostly. Rice is to small and absorbent and likely to sour(contaminate) do to wet spot.


Edited by Cerebro (11/05/07 11:37 PM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: Cerebro]
    #7598717 - 11/05/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cerebro said:
I am doing the same thing sprouting. I hear where both you & Roger are coming from. People say the sprouts convert the starches into sugars robbing them of the mycelium. But will there be less bacterial endospores on the grain/beans probably. A cool thing to do with sprouts to kill off bacterium is add H2O2 to the water. It also speeds up growth; try that with mycelium and you'll harm it. Ever time I PC a jar I think I am making a seed endosperm for the mycelium. How plants escape bacteria is by producing "Plantibotics" called paciferans.




Almost everything you said there is wrong. There will be no fewer endospores in sprouted grains, H2O2 is only effective against some bacteria, it will kill any spores you introduce, and it markedly stunts growth not speeds it up.

I advise you to take RR's advice and give up on this line of experimentation. It's already been tried by every grower that soaked their grains a little too long and it's always resulted in failure, either complete or partial.

IME by the time grain sprouts it is also rotten with bacteria, which also means that it's going to be loaded with endospores. Getting them to germinate so that they may be killed only works on a short time frame, if you wait too long they will have produced tons of new endospores.

Grains have not evolved to germinate underwater in a bucket. When you germinate them this way the end up mushy, rotten, and overridden with stinky bacteria.


-FF


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: fastfred]
    #7600295 - 11/05/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

nothing is worse then the stank of sour nasty


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: Cheezit]
    #7600866 - 11/05/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

he mycelium wants whole grains, not grass.




however, a sprout also contains roots, and some mushrooms live off tree's and their roots? (this is a question)

so purhaps, sprouts could be the missing ingredient for morels?

but im also curious to see how mushrooms grow on them when properly prepared.

I see the contam issue now, i see the mush problem. However i also see possible solutions.

Possible solutions on the contam issue:

1. instead of drowning the seeds in water, one could just keep them slightly wet, just enough to sprout

2. rinse after 24 hours

Possible solutions to the mush problem:

im slightly confused as to what causes it to turn to mush. Is the from the seed "exploding"? 2 much water? or is the sprout really soft?

1. if its from the grains exploding, this usually indicates to much water anyway if im not mistaken. So purhaps make sure they have all sprouted and throughly drained.

2. if its from the sprout being 2 soft, and from the heat turns to mush, then purhaps it could be supplemented with a filler to make more air pockets so it doesn't clump.


I think there's some potential here, through idea's at me. I'm willing to do an experiment. I'll write up a tek if it works.


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (11/05/07 11:02 PM)


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7601558 - 11/06/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The thing is seeds absorb water. Max water capacity that a mushroom likes is about 75% water.

When the seed pumps out roots it pumps in water forcing the seed to break open and force out roots. The water now exceeds the optimum level.
Now yes mushrooms of some species like roots. But they like fibrous old roots. Not a root that is mostly water and a little what ever.


Now to me with my experience and logic would say, that most mushrooms grow fine of traditionally prepared grain, experience also has told me that they don't like germinated or exploded kernels.

So instead of devoting my time to furthering the development of some thing that is pretty much perfect the way it is, doesn't make sense. I rather be spending my time perfecting the grow room, where environmental conditions play a larger role in the whole performance of the grow.

Not knocking you down, keep up the brain storming. Keep on dreaming and thinking!


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Offlinemr_minds_eye
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: Cerebro]
    #7601950 - 11/06/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cerebro said:
Beer makers malt(sprout) grains because of the different flavors and to increase vitamin C content.





No beer makers mash their grain to convert the carbohydrates in the grain to sugar which makes it fermentable.


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-Stephen Hawking


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: mr_minds_eye]
    #7602267 - 11/06/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well yes and no, they malt the grain to convert starches to sugar, but the degree that the malt is then kilned determines the color and the flavor of the finished beer. Converted starch to sugar, then cooking to desired color for different flavors and degrees of caramilzation of the sugars.


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: Cheezit]
    #7609830 - 11/08/07 02:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Cerebo, I won't begin to attempt a line-by-line list of how much BS is in that post. A few highlights:

Quote:

But will there be less bacterial endospores on the grain/beans probably.




Why you think providing endospores with food and moisture won't yield exponential replication, is beyond me. It will not be hardened...which is the entire point of the soak.

Quote:

Beer makers malt(sprout) grains because of the different flavors and to increase vitamin C content.




I don't know about other beer makers, but I use malt because it contains fermentable sugars. Never once considered my vitamin C content. The endospores process high energy density starches (the kind of thing mushrooms like) into sugars (which do mushies little good).

By sprouting you're removing basic food elements. It's important to remember that fungi are decomposers. They like, and often need, complex food.


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7609832 - 11/08/07 02:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

mak, most of your questions should (?) be answered by the above. The essential answer is, it's not the same substance. After exposure to water the seed immediately begins decomposing into basic sugars.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7610027 - 11/08/07 06:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Adding pale malt to WBS is definitely beneficial.It does not turn to "mush" or decompose to sugar unless held at 140f-160f for extended periods. PCing the malt destroys the amylase but not the big boost in complex starches and extra nutrition of sprouted grain.One of the best substrates IMO for cakes is spent brewers grain, vermiculite and just enough flour to bind it all.The husk and leeched grain is almost ideal for the mycelium to quickly run through the cake.The husk especially seeming to attract mycelial strands the quickest.


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: whiterasta]
    #7610030 - 11/08/07 06:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Seriously? I'll have to try that, then. Even spent grain, with the starches largely converted?


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7610281 - 11/08/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes they do. It's a big thing actually. But I just want to say malt/ spent beer is different then sprouts!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: Cheezit]
    #7612130 - 11/08/07 05:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Adding starches and/or sugars to substrate causes the myc to grow faster, but the down side is that they then contaminate very easily when you try to fruit them. It's not a viable method IME.


-FF


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: fastfred]
    #7612639 - 11/08/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would consider spent grain to be a good candidate supplement for the SAC method.


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Offlinespock1
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? *DELETED* [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7648062 - 11/17/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by spock1

Reason for deletion: .



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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: Sprouting seeds on purpose? [Re: spock1]
    #7648098 - 11/17/07 04:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This is why I just measure it out in my ML measuring cup and PC immediately.


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