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Anno
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Culture storage technique
#758830 - 07/19/02 09:32 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is an interesting technique for long term storage of mushroom cultures in distilled, sterile water. http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23543 I stored several cultures this way 12 months ago. 2 days ago I recovered a few cultures by placing them on agar. Several are already showing signs of recovery, but one really bursted into growth. This is a P. ostreatus I got from Egghead.
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DinoMyc
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#759363 - 07/19/02 01:14 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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nice have you tried any other techniques with these samples to compare with? thanks for letting everyone know of your success.
-------------------- If I made affront, I apologize. If I made affirmation, I apologize. I merely came to listen, came to say.
Edited by DinoMyc (07/19/02 01:15 PM)
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Suntzu
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#761405 - 07/20/02 07:28 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey Anno, would you mind posting a list of the species that did/did not survive the dH2O storage?
I have had great success with cubes and pans, all the pleurotus species seem to do fine with it. Reishi, maitake, cordyceps as well. . .but there are a couple that don't seem to take to it. I lost my stropharia r.a., nearly lost my panellus. Might be cooincidence, but those are both fairly slow-growing, at least on the media I was using. It would be nice to see if some species are better stored on slants.
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Stampede
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Suntzu]
#761510 - 07/20/02 08:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes i read that on another board .. but i'am planning to put it to use have a limited selection of edibles i would like to keep around for a while .. Great Info .. and how many days is P oyster been on there?
-------------------- Stampede Hunting the Hills and Pastures FAPA - Member Since 5-18-02 Mobile Grow Journel RV Trade List
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Suntzu]
#766053 - 07/21/02 08:40 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Day 5 after revival:
Growing very good: P. ostreatus P. djamor
Growing: P. cornucopiae
Not growing: H. erinaceus P. nameko
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Suntzu]
#766071 - 07/21/02 08:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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What would be important to add... I stored the cultures in water 2 diferent ways:
1.) I cut small agar cubes out of the petri dish and transfered those cubes to the water slant. 2.) I scraped the mycelium of the perti dish surface and transfered the mycelium strands in the water slant..
This revival trial is with the small cubes, I?m yet to try this with the strands.
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DinoMyc
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#766521 - 07/22/02 04:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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doesnt nameko have issues with other storage techniques? perhaps I am confuseing it with another.
-------------------- If I made affront, I apologize. If I made affirmation, I apologize. I merely came to listen, came to say.
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: DinoMyc]
#2320506 - 02/10/04 03:01 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know, but I think it's time to place some cultures on agar again.
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2320637 - 02/10/04 06:36 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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When I look at the date of the postings it must have been quite some time since you have stored them in dH20 ? I am curious about the results. Maybe we could make a list for the FAQ how long which strain was stored in dH20 or other medium ?
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2971295 - 08/06/04 08:40 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is other poeple's experience on this?
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YidakiMan
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2971556 - 08/06/04 10:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I put most of my cultures in dh2O several months ago. I didn't reanimate any of them, against my better judgement because they are all still alive on agar. But I did send some to ATWAR and she said that they have not reanimated yet. I know that I did pick the good ones that had visible fractured hyphae.
Before school starts I'm going to make more. Currently I only have them stored in one place... again, against my better judgement.
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2971855 - 08/06/04 11:53 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The only and first time I revived some mycelium from the dH2o long-term storage was a shitake strain after 6 month after the mycelium on the agar plate in the fridge had died. It worked very well ...
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: ragadinks]
#2974872 - 08/07/04 07:43 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I found following mail from Joe Kish here:
Quote:
To Rene, "Perf. Fungi E." Your negative assumptions concerning the storage technique article were made without even reading it. There lies the problem. The statistics that you do not have available were contained in the article's References. One Reference that appeared in Applied Microbiology, Aug. 1974, by M.R.McGinnis, A.A.Padhye, and L.Ajello described the tests that were performed. "Four hundred and seventeen isolates of 147 species belonging to 66 genera of filamentous fungi, yeasts, and aerobic actinomycetes were maintained in sterile distilled water at room temperature over periods ranging from 12 to 60 months in four independent experiments. Of the 417 cultures, 389 (93%) survived storage." The References are obtainable from your University library. Joe Kish
He says that in a test 93% from 417 tested cultures survived in dH2O over a period from 12 to 60 months. It's a pity that I cannot find the paper on the net, since it would be interesting which cultures ecactly have been tested.
Edited by ragadinks (08/07/04 08:13 AM)
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: ragadinks]
#2974885 - 08/07/04 07:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Huuh, I have found the article on the net here!
This book would also very interesting:
Quote:
Long-term storage of ectomycorrhizal basidiomycetes (Hebeloma spp.) at low temperature M. Tibbett, F.E. Sanders, J.W.G. Cairney Journal of Basic Microbiology Volume 39, Issue 5-6, 1999. Pages 381-384 ? 1999 WILEY-VCH Verlag Berlin GmbH, Fed. Rep. of Germany
Abstract
A method for maintaining viable cultures of ectomycorrhizal Hebeloma strains in cold liquid culture medium is described. Isolates of Hebeloma spp., collected over a wide geographic range, were stored at 2 ?C for a period of three years. All cultures survived this storage period, a greater time period and success rate than has previously been reported for the long term storage of ectomycorrhizal basidiomycetes. The method may prove useful for long-term storage of other basidiomycete genera.
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: ragadinks]
#2974894 - 08/07/04 08:12 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here is another nice link where it says that the mycelium is grown out on water agar (which seems to have not nutrients?) and is then transferred to distilled H2O. So no scraping mycelium of standard agar necessary anymore.
Here is the text:
Quote:
Hi Mike. We store our culture collection with water storage (but we also have a set of everything in liquid nitrogen too!). The cultures are actually grown on water agar (1.5% agar in water, no nutrients) and then we cut out little plugs and drop them in sterile distilled water, so you don't have to scrape off any mycelium. My former boss helped pioneer this technique, and he estimates that you can store most cultures for 5 years. We have something like 13,000 cultures of wood decay fungi that we are storing this way with no trouble that I've heard about.
Jessie Micales, Project Leader Center for Forest Mycology Research Forest Products Laboratory Madison, WI
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YidakiMan
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: ragadinks]
#2975011 - 08/07/04 09:47 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Does the 1.5% agar solution solidify?
I might be able to talk to Tom Volk about this. He worked at Forest Products Lab for awhile before taking tenure at University of Wisconsin La Crosse.
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: YidakiMan]
#2975037 - 08/07/04 09:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I assume that the agar solidifies, but I am not really sure about that.
> I might be able to talk to Tom Volk about this. He worked at Forest Products Lab for awhile before taking tenure at University of Wisconsin La Crosse. Would be really great if we could get some accurate info from someone who was involved in the experiment.
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fastfred
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: ragadinks]
#2975475 - 08/07/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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dH2O is not a very good storage medium. Besides containing no nutrients the dH2O will suck out the nutrients from the mycelium.
The end result: Death by osmosis.
I suppose there are plenty of ways to get around this, but using non-distilled water would be the easiest.
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YidakiMan
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: fastfred]
#2975604 - 08/07/04 02:10 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: dH2O is not a very good storage medium. Besides containing no nutrients the dH2O will suck out the nutrients from the mycelium. The end result: Death by osmosis.
Interesting assertion, but it's hard to argue with results.
Quote:
"Four hundred and seventeen isolates of 147 species belonging to 66 genera of filamentous fungi, yeasts, and aerobic actinomycetes were maintained in sterile distilled water at room temperature over periods ranging from 12 to 60 months in four independent experiments. Of the 417 cultures, 389 (93%) survived storage." The References are obtainable from your University library.
Quote:
...he estimates that you can store most cultures for 5 years. We have something like 13,000 cultures of wood decay fungi that we are storing this way with no trouble that I've heard about.
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: fastfred]
#2975666 - 08/07/04 02:27 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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fastred: it seems that the results of some studies point out that distilled H20 is in fact a very good medium for long-term storage of mycelium since the living tissue falls dormant when there are no nutrients around.
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: YidakiMan]
#2975898 - 08/07/04 03:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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>Does the 1.5% agar solution solidify?
Yes.
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: fastfred]
#2975941 - 08/07/04 04:10 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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>dH2O is not a very good storage medium. Besides containing no nutrients the >dH2O will suck out the nutrients from the mycelium. >The end result: Death by osmosis.
Osmosis doesn't work this way. It actually works exactly the opposite way. Water flows from the area with the lower concentration of ions(distilled water) to the area with the higher concentration of ions(a cell). Not the other way round.
And, this method works, as the numerous experiments that have been made clearly show.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2976051 - 08/07/04 04:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Interesting stuff guys, thanks. I've lost a few cultures in test tubes after a year or more, and petri dishes are no good at all for long term storage.
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fastfred
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2976290 - 08/07/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Osmosis doesn't work this way. It actually works exactly the opposite way. Water flows from the area with the lower concentration of ions(distilled water) to the area with the higher concentration of ions(a cell). Not the other way round.
I'm not referring to the water, but rather the minerals in the water. Putting anything into distilled water will leach out most of the minerals it contains. Fish can't live in distilled water, mainly because of this.
Quote:
And, this method works, as the numerous experiments that have been made clearly show.
Perhaps I should have read the thread a little more carefully before I responded. I was quite confident of my explanation because it was explained to me that way by a mycology professor. His observations are probably based on dddi water. The papers referenced above are based on your basic distilled water which probably still contains enough ions to avoid killing the mycelium.
My main point was (or should have been) that it would be much better to use mineral water rather than distilled water.
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: fastfred]
#2977673 - 08/08/04 07:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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>Putting anything into distilled water will leach out most of the minerals it contains.
This doesn't happen. Any substances in the mycelium are contained within cells. Each cell has a membrane. Due to osmosis, if anything water will get into the cell and stay there, it is not like water is flowing passively in and out and washes out anything from the cells. Nature doesn't work this way.
>Fish can't live in distilled water, mainly because of this.
I don't know if the can or if they can't, I haven't found any direct references on this. I never tried an put a fish in distilled water.
Fish have a water management system depending on in what water they live.
Fish living in salt water constantly have to drink salt water in order to compensate the water loss through osmosis , since the concentration of the minerals in the water is much higher than in the body, thus the water is flowing from the body into the sea.
Fish living in normal water constantly have to excrete large amounts of water through kidneys in order to compensate the water gain through osmosis, since the concentration of the minerals in the fish is much higher than in the water , thus the water is flowing into the body of the fish.
The question if fish survive in distilled water is an interesting one and might be worth a trial.
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fastfred
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2977705 - 08/08/04 08:10 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've never put a fish in distilled water, but I have seen it on the internet.
Concentrations of ions will move from the area of greater concentration towards the area of lower concentration. That's why I wouldn't use distilled water.
Just becasue something can survive in it doesn't mean it's optimal.
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: fastfred]
#2977710 - 08/08/04 08:16 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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>Concentrations of ions will move from the area of greater concentration towards >the area of lower concentration.
You are talking of diffusion. In this case ye, this is how diffusion works.
When a cell which has a membrane comes into play, you no longer have a simple diffusion, but osmosis. And this is when the statement "Concentrations of ions will move from the area of greater concentration towards the area of lower concentration" isn't true anymore.
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fastfred
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2977752 - 08/08/04 09:07 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Biological membranes can only maintain a certain gradient across the membrane. By putting distilled water on one side you have just created a gradient that never occurs in nature. Cells can't maintain that steep of a gradient.
That may explain why it creates a state of suspended animation. But, I hardly think it's healthful for the mycelium though.
In any case, depending on the method you use, you're probably introducing enough media and/or mycelium to provide the necessary minerals. Hence it's not really distilled water anymore.
Is there any reason *not* to use normal water which has a much more natural composition?
Distilled water tastes like shit... That's enough reason for me not to use it.
I pulled this quote from a website... I haven't checked it's accuracy.
According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, "Distilled water, being essentially mineral-free, is very aggressive, in that it tends to dissolve substances with which it is in contact. Notably, carbon dioxide from the air is rapidly absorbed, making the water acidic and even more aggressive. Many metals are dissolved by distilled water."
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: fastfred]
#2977942 - 08/08/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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>According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
I tried to find this statement in at their website, www.epa.gov to no avail.
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fastfred
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2977992 - 08/08/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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It could be bogus... Didn't make it up myself though.
Anyway, has anyone tried a comparison between media vs dH20 vs H2O?
I would assume that the media would have a very definite lifespan since a FOAF has seen ME jars go bad within 7 months at room temp.
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Suntzu
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2978107 - 08/08/04 11:39 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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found it here: [a few paragraphs down]. Not the original source, but appears to be the above quote from the EPA. http://www.mercola.com/article/water/distilled_water.htm.
Edited by Suntzu (08/08/04 12:08 PM)
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Suntzu]
#2978114 - 08/08/04 11:42 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know, the quote is all around the web, but the source doesn't have it....
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Suntzu
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#2978168 - 08/08/04 12:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hmmm. . .I couldn't find anything directly from the EPA, either. It's possibly a fabrication? ? My main man, Dr. Weil has a few things to say about the 'death by distilled water' websites:
http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=21181
I've used dH2O for a few years now, it does work. I've been using double-distilled ultra filtered water; specifically to produce water free of ions/metals for molecular bio work. One thing for sure, the pH of this water can drop; Adding a generous helping of mycelium actually brings it back up! [over time]. With any storage technique, a percentage of cells will die. Even the textbook '15% glycerol/PBS in -80C' kills a number of the cells. All you need is a decent number of them to survive and the storage technique was successful.
Honestly, I can see regular water working just fine, as long as it's sterilized and non-nutritive. I have thought about experimenting with pH-buffered ETDA solutions, but the straight ddH2O has worked well enough.
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Anno
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Suntzu]
#2978361 - 08/08/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wrote Dr. Mercola an email, perhaps he can provide me with the source of that quotation.
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Speeker

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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Suntzu]
#3022038 - 08/19/04 03:39 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of the 151 isolates taken from water storage (after storage up to 7 yr), 94% were viable. For those isolates with previously recorded growth rates, the growth rates were not consistently affected by the distilled water storage method (TABLE I). For those for which previous information was not available, the growth rates were as expected (TABLE I). Thus, water storage did not have an obvious influence on culture viability or growth rate.
--> Preserving cultures of wood-decaying Badidiomycotina using sterile distilled water in cryovials http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1994/burds94a.pdf
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ragadinks
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Speeker]
#3022151 - 08/19/04 05:01 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Great link ! They are storing the cultures together with the agar! It does not seem to be necessary remove all nutrients from the mycelium prior to storage ?
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flameclown
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Re: Culture storage technique *DELETED* [Re: ragadinks]
#3032384 - 08/21/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by flameclownReason for deletion: [this post is damn old]
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fastfred
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: flameclown]
#3036603 - 08/22/04 03:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Search ebay for "vials" it comes up with a ton of results. You might also try american science and surplus and/or all electronics. Those are both surplus places and sell a lot of stuff fairly cheap.
-FF
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psiloz
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: Anno]
#3038870 - 08/23/04 08:39 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Re : fish in distilled water
Should be Ok as the fish gets plenty of salts from the food, theyll also be pumping out Ammonia through their gills so the water wont stay pure for long
Main issue is Acidity
Very soft water ie rainwater has non Ca or Mg salts to buffer it so pH can move swiftly to killing levels
however fish from some upland rainfed water bodies can live in quite soft, low TDS water
Angelfish i think are an example of fish liking soft water
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YidakiMan
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Re: Culture storage technique [Re: flameclown]
#3040531 - 08/23/04 05:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Look for microcentrifugal tubes. They are far cheaper than glass dram vials. At American Science and surplus, 10cents each for a 2ml tube.
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