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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28
    #758001 - 07/19/02 01:45 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758045 - 07/19/02 02:39 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

your young men will see visions.
Aye.

I see visions soberly during sexual experiences, and once in awhile during meditation. Most frequently on mushrooms.

your old men will dream dreams
I think most of em disregard these as 'illogical' or 'scientifically unverifyable', and so they forget.
Sorry don't want to discriminate against all old men but most of them just seem too wrapped up in their own belief / disbelief systems to wake up and give any weight to their dreams.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Edited by Adamist (07/19/02 02:41 AM)


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758088 - 07/19/02 03:34 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

your young men will see visions.

Yup. Between the ages of 14 & 20 and long before I had been introduced to ANY drug. Profound numinous experience - I do believe I was preconditioned by my upbringing though. Not that that is a bad thing - I am grateful for it as it provided a rich base for my future development.

I often wondered to myself about that scripture but never told a soul about my experiences ...


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: the_Landotter]
    #758127 - 07/19/02 04:02 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineMycelium
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758242 - 07/19/02 05:03 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

You can not trust "visions" you see while under the influence of mind altering substances. If you attempt to act upon these visions while under the influence they will only lead you in the wrong path.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Mycelium]
    #758250 - 07/19/02 05:11 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineMycelium
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758342 - 07/19/02 06:03 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly. No one will know until we all pass away from this place....


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Mycelium]
    #758464 - 07/19/02 06:47 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758839 - 07/19/02 09:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Don't kid yourself. It's only 'we believe'.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Sclorch]
    #758908 - 07/19/02 10:10 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #759053 - 07/19/02 11:08 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

My current perspective....
I like that. Yeah, it implies a sort of ignorance that I must have in order to not blindly cling to ideals born in misinterpretation.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #759247 - 07/19/02 12:17 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

The revelations/visions (not to be confused with visuals) I get nearly every time I trip are always kept to myself. I don't even utter it to other Muslims, let alone my godless friends. Every psychedelic experience for me has one focus: Becoming one at peace with the Creator. The higher the dose I take, strangely enough, the more obvious the presence of God is in the experience.. in fact.. while all my trips are introverted, the presence of God in my high dose experiences is very, very external from me and the experience I'm going through as a result of taking a psychedelic drug. This is why I consider it a revelation... the external presence of God in high doses of psychedelics..


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #759401 - 07/19/02 01:45 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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Offlinesalvo
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #760826 - 07/20/02 02:55 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

i once had an experience like that in full blown effect but it was only after i had finished my love-wine spell and tried it... it caused a vision of my incarnate self hundreds of years ago, i was wearing red leather armor and had a big red beard.. since then ive had one other time like that and that was on lughnasadh last year at afield in the middle of no where..


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Well i had my beer last night with you, but you pushed me too far and now were through. You run out to the car and you think you're so cute, youre the kinda bitch they aughta shoot!


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: salvo]
    #760850 - 07/20/02 03:11 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #761396 - 07/20/02 07:25 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In the 70's I lived in the foreign student dorm at college 'cause it was more interesting and universal. I gave acid to my Turkish next-door neighbors. Salim was an extravert and I saw him riding on the back hood of someone's Cadillac on campus. He was just extraverting the experience and acting 'out.' Adnan was a classic introvert, who sat alone on his bed against the wall and communed with God for hours. He said it was as though a Light was poised above his head. I asked him if the Light ever descended to his head or into his heart. "No" was his response.

The constructivist schools of mysticism insist that there is no such thing as a pure consciousness experience (PCE) - an experience that has not been flavored to some extent by the data that we have in place when the mystical experience occurs. Since Islam does not recognize an Incarnational theology, except among certain Sufis perhaps (I have seen evidence in the Chisti Order, say Pir Vilayat), the utterly transcendent God remains aloof from the human psyche [soul]. It has always struck me how Aristotelian a notion this was - the 'Unmoved Mover,' the God of Aristotle (who tremendously influenced the Arabic world in general). But I digress.

It seems as if your experience of God, external to your psyche, resonates with the notion of the utterly transcendent Deity in Islam. Paradoxically, Muslims do say such things as Allah is 'closer to one than one's jugular vein.' But, whereas the spiritual Agent in Christianity is a Personality, the Agent in Islam is a Book - external to the physical body. The soul in Christianity can hear the Word of God, which is the Spirit 'in letter,' but it can also be 'filled' with that 'aspect' of God called the Holy Spirit. This is an 'interpenetration' of Divine or 'Uncreated Energy' [Eastern Orthodox Christianity] with the human spirit, that doesn't quite have a parallel in mainstream Islam. One hears the Word of God, and acts in 'submission' to the will of God. The transfiguration, or theosis of the human spirit into the Spirit of God is the goal of [Eastern] Christianity ("God became man so that man could become God" - Iraeneus), but this is 'shirk' in Islam. Regardless of one's faith however, God is still considered to be omnipresent and this means that His Presence occupies the physical, psychic and spiritual 'space' of each human. The wisdom in regarding God as 'Wholly Other,' is that one cannot inadvertantly come to worship some human psychical or spiritual reality AS God, and therby be guilty of shirk.

Do you see your theology as having shaped your entheogenic (Whoops. Sorry, I can't use this word with Muslims ), your psychedelic experience of the 'external God?' A Salaam Aleichem.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #762280 - 07/20/02 12:52 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting Mark but..

What I experienced was a reality of God...When I said external presence, I ment that as in, the experience was not some blind belief that formed in my mind, but my soul believing in the existence of a Creator. His presence was demanding submission, nonetheless.

According to Islamic tradition, God was never made into flesh on earth (Jesus was a Prophet, not the Son of God). Many Muslims believe the worshipping Jesus Christ is shirk, but others disagree because of some of the versus in the Holy Qur'aan.

When I use psychedelics, I focus entirely on Allah. When I do this, I feel His presence and the trip becomes overwhelmingly spiritual. Othertimes, I don't focus on Allah due to outside disturbances (friends being present, music, etc.) I've also found I can experience His presence the easiest outdoors, at night, alone. When the One true God, (the God you worship too, Mark) has a oneness presence in deep ego liberation, it is more than obvious it is the one true God.

Maybe you believe Allah is a false God, but, as I know from experience (just as you know God exists from your experience as a Christian) the God I worship is the true God, the same God who revealed the truth to Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc. There is a reason for multiple messengers, because the message gets changed over time, especially Christianity.. otherwise I would not experience the obvious miracles that occur every day that strengthen my belief. Islam has not changed at all since the time of the Prophet, since the very first Muslims, including Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam memorized the entire Qur'an. Islam, is the same religion of Ibrahim, Isa, Musa, Yusuf, Isma'il, etc. (Abraham, Jesus, Moses, Joseph, Ishmael).


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Edited by Zahid (07/20/02 12:57 PM)


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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #762311 - 07/20/02 01:07 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Correct me if I am wrong... but doesn't Islam also teach that woman are inferior?
That one man's word is worth more than that of three woman?
That if a man simply suspects his wife of being unfaithful, he can kill her with no repercussions?
And woman must cover all their skin at all times when in public, and they may not go into public without a male member of the family?
A man in Iran can rape five woman, and if they come forward with it, they will be called liars and executed for having premarital sex.
And woman in islamic countries have basically no rights whatsoever.

I have nothing against Islam as a religion, except for their viewing of woman as inferior beings. I don't doubt for a second the validity of Allah as being the same omniscient God many religions may call different names. But I do question Islamic religion as to their morals when dealing with woman.

We are all human, no sex is better than another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Sclorch]
    #762318 - 07/20/02 01:11 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Some of us Know.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: ]
    #762332 - 07/20/02 01:22 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Islam doesn't oppress women (goto www.ummah.com, join the board and ask a female Muslim there... the board has alot of unbelievers there for interesting debate)

As you should know, there is not a single Muslim country that exists today that is ran under pure Shar'iah law (the law of the Land set by God) In otherwords, when you see a women veiled in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan (even though the veil is an Afghani cultural tradition) it is a law inforced fundamentalists/wahabi Muslim that has no place in Islamic Law. Under Islamic law, women are required to wear a very light scarf over their hair called a hijab. Men, in return are required to grow a beard. Islam teaches that men and women are equal, but it is the man's duty to protect the women and children alike, and that women may not participate in armed struggle if oppression occurs. Both men and women can divorce their spouse if they wish under Islamic law. Unlike in Christianity, Eve was not created because Adam was lonely.. Islam describes the union of man and women as "protectors of one another". Abusing women is strictly haraam in Islam, and is a horrible sin to commit. What Iran is doing, what the religious police in SA are doing, are not allowed under true Islamic law.


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Edited by Zahid (07/20/02 01:29 PM)


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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #762342 - 07/20/02 01:29 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me.

But what of the oppression I hear of?
My female companion is half persian, her father was raised in Iran..
I have heard many a story about how woman are oppressed in Islamic countries
Surely some of it has some significance?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #762348 - 07/20/02 01:35 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I do not think that Allah is "a false God," because God is not 'a god,' but the One.
I know a little about the culture and personal history of Muhammed - widowhood, remarriage, etc. which I won't go into, and whereas I am not into a cult of personality, be it Jesus or Muhammed, I do have something of an aversion to some of what I have learned.

Christians and Muslims will never see eye to eye on the exoteric, doctrinal level. Islam declares Jesus a prophet, and He was from a line of Prophets, but Christian doctrine attributed an entirely new ontological status to Him. Son of God simply meant King throughout the Old Testament, but the title was applied to a Kingdom of God in the case of Jesus. Islam denies that a Prophet of God would ever die a disgraced death such as to be hung on a tree, so either Jesus was NOT crucified, but His place taken by another, OR He was only apparently crucified - in an 'apparent' body (which is the Christian heresy called Docetism). Well, clearly, 'Christ and Him crucified,' is the central teaching of Paul, the architect of Christianity. So, what is to be done with diametrically opposed view?

I am attempting to distill the essence of Christ from the Scriptures, which are certainly distorted, mythologized and misinterpreted by most of Christendom, IMHO. You would have to become fluent in Arabic according to many Muslims to really get the Quran.

All I can say is that the purpose of Christ is to bring us to the Presence of God, and of course, this was the maessage of Muhammed (even though he himself did not write the Quran). I can only hope that Humankind will learn to live and let live. To each his own choice, and God Himself will judge, not me or you.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #762442 - 07/20/02 02:27 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: ]
    #762546 - 07/20/02 03:07 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Some Islamic government do oppress women... (they feel that women must be completely covered so there is no lust at all in men).. most of these governments are supported by the United States as well for oil (one factor why many Muslims hate American foreign policy.) Fundamentalists believe in a barbaric, perverted version of Islam that includes no rights for women, oppression, the killing of innocent civilians who live under enemy governments, anti-semitism, and of course, a perverted misconception of martyrdom.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #763450 - 07/20/02 09:07 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm liking how you're looking at that aspect of many Arabic countries.


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #764550 - 07/21/02 11:53 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Fundamentalists believe in a barbaric, perverted version of Islam that includes no rights for women, oppression, the killing of innocent civilians who live under enemy governments, anti-semitism, and of course, a perverted misconception of martyrdom.

which is originally what muslims believed. all muslims. some of those things are fundamental belief...or were.
in the crusades, die killing a christian, go to heaven.
hold up a qu'ran in one hand and a sword in the other and make a crusader choose.

it's a good thing for everybody that christians and muslims both have "changed" much in the past several hundred years. it saves much bloodshed.

actually...in reality, islam has "changed" every bit as much as christianity has "changed". but islamic people will never ever admit it. why not? i dunno. it's not like it's a bad thing to "change". hey, you know why i put quotation marks around the word "change"? because i'm using that word like others have. but see, in my humble and maybe wrong opinion, change is the absolutley wrong word. religions don't change. they ADAPT. they are made up of sentient beings who grow and evolve, therefore the religions themselves grow and evolve.
everything in an acorn is in an oak tree, everything in an oak tree is in an acorn, but does and acorn look like an oak tree at first glance? (i know i've used that analogy before, but it's such a good one.)


bob marley has the best answer for all.
"one love, one heart, let's get together and feel alright."
"why this fussin' an' a fightin', i wanna know, oh lord i wanna know. we should really, love each other, in peace and harmony. instead of all this fussin' and fighten', like we're not supposed to be."


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Peace and Love to all!


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #768018 - 07/22/02 02:45 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

whiterastahippie, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

which is originally what muslims believed. all muslims. some of those things are fundamental belief...or were.
in the crusades, die killing a christian, go to heaven.
hold up a qu'ran in one hand and a sword in the other and make a crusader choose.


In the crusades, the soldiers who took part in them happen to be (Christian). Islam teaches that if YOU are attacked, you must fight back until they no longer oppress you. The christian crusaders invaded the the Arab world and slaughtered thousands among thousands of local Arabs (who were Muslims) in Palestine. The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never taught Muslims to kill Christians and Jews, but to fight the ones who attack you, along with Kafr who attack you. Islam teaches to be courteous to Christians and Jews, for many of them will abide in Paradise.

it's a good thing for everybody that christians and muslims both have "changed" much in the past several hundred years. it saves much bloodshed.


Many of the changes in Christianity are obvious to Muslims... Christianity, is a very distorted religion today because of the first 200 years after the time of Jesus Christ. Today Christians believe Jesus was God, that God is in three parts, and many other aspects that did not exist in the original message of Jesus.

actually...in reality, islam has "changed" every bit as much as christianity has "changed". but islamic people will never ever admit it. why not? i dunno. it's not like it's a bad thing to "change". hey, you know why i put quotation marks around the word "change"? because i'm using that word like others have. but see, in my humble and maybe wrong opinion, change is the absolutley wrong word. religions don't change. they ADAPT. they are made up of sentient beings who grow and evolve, therefore the religions themselves grow and evolve.
everything in an acorn is in an oak tree, everything in an oak tree is in an acorn, but does and acorn look like an oak tree at first glance? (i know i've used that analogy before, but it's such a good one.)


How do you define "change"? The Qur'aan in original Arabic (translations may be a little different) is exactly the same as it was at the time of the Prophet's passing. Why? Because the first few hundred Muslims (the ones who all fled from Mecca to Medina to escape the Pagan Meccans) all memorized the Qur'aan by heart. The first few Caliphs of Islam, like Abu Bakr also memorized the Qur'aan and the Islamic khalifah would punish any scholars who attempted to change the readings of Muhammad because it was outright blasphemy.

Unfortunately, Jesus Christ was not able to get a mass following at first, and thus a large nation ran under God's Law was never established and this resulted, in the first 160-200 years after Christ, a very distorted religion of God.

You should also know that much of the western world has a negative view of Islam because it is not liberal enough/too conservative (the clash of cultures).


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Edited by Zahid (07/22/02 02:47 PM)


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