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Anonymous

Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #762342 - 07/20/02 01:29 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me.

But what of the oppression I hear of?
My female companion is half persian, her father was raised in Iran..
I have heard many a story about how woman are oppressed in Islamic countries
Surely some of it has some significance?

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #762348 - 07/20/02 01:35 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I do not think that Allah is "a false God," because God is not 'a god,' but the One.
I know a little about the culture and personal history of Muhammed - widowhood, remarriage, etc. which I won't go into, and whereas I am not into a cult of personality, be it Jesus or Muhammed, I do have something of an aversion to some of what I have learned.

Christians and Muslims will never see eye to eye on the exoteric, doctrinal level. Islam declares Jesus a prophet, and He was from a line of Prophets, but Christian doctrine attributed an entirely new ontological status to Him. Son of God simply meant King throughout the Old Testament, but the title was applied to a Kingdom of God in the case of Jesus. Islam denies that a Prophet of God would ever die a disgraced death such as to be hung on a tree, so either Jesus was NOT crucified, but His place taken by another, OR He was only apparently crucified - in an 'apparent' body (which is the Christian heresy called Docetism). Well, clearly, 'Christ and Him crucified,' is the central teaching of Paul, the architect of Christianity. So, what is to be done with diametrically opposed view?

I am attempting to distill the essence of Christ from the Scriptures, which are certainly distorted, mythologized and misinterpreted by most of Christendom, IMHO. You would have to become fluent in Arabic according to many Muslims to really get the Quran.

All I can say is that the purpose of Christ is to bring us to the Presence of God, and of course, this was the maessage of Muhammed (even though he himself did not write the Quran). I can only hope that Humankind will learn to live and let live. To each his own choice, and God Himself will judge, not me or you.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #762442 - 07/20/02 02:27 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: ]
    #762546 - 07/20/02 03:07 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Some Islamic government do oppress women... (they feel that women must be completely covered so there is no lust at all in men).. most of these governments are supported by the United States as well for oil (one factor why many Muslims hate American foreign policy.) Fundamentalists believe in a barbaric, perverted version of Islam that includes no rights for women, oppression, the killing of innocent civilians who live under enemy governments, anti-semitism, and of course, a perverted misconception of martyrdom.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #763450 - 07/20/02 09:07 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm liking how you're looking at that aspect of many Arabic countries.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #764550 - 07/21/02 11:53 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Fundamentalists believe in a barbaric, perverted version of Islam that includes no rights for women, oppression, the killing of innocent civilians who live under enemy governments, anti-semitism, and of course, a perverted misconception of martyrdom.

which is originally what muslims believed. all muslims. some of those things are fundamental belief...or were.
in the crusades, die killing a christian, go to heaven.
hold up a qu'ran in one hand and a sword in the other and make a crusader choose.

it's a good thing for everybody that christians and muslims both have "changed" much in the past several hundred years. it saves much bloodshed.

actually...in reality, islam has "changed" every bit as much as christianity has "changed". but islamic people will never ever admit it. why not? i dunno. it's not like it's a bad thing to "change". hey, you know why i put quotation marks around the word "change"? because i'm using that word like others have. but see, in my humble and maybe wrong opinion, change is the absolutley wrong word. religions don't change. they ADAPT. they are made up of sentient beings who grow and evolve, therefore the religions themselves grow and evolve.
everything in an acorn is in an oak tree, everything in an oak tree is in an acorn, but does and acorn look like an oak tree at first glance? (i know i've used that analogy before, but it's such a good one.)


bob marley has the best answer for all.
"one love, one heart, let's get together and feel alright."
"why this fussin' an' a fightin', i wanna know, oh lord i wanna know. we should really, love each other, in peace and harmony. instead of all this fussin' and fighten', like we're not supposed to be."


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Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #768018 - 07/22/02 02:45 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

whiterastahippie, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

which is originally what muslims believed. all muslims. some of those things are fundamental belief...or were.
in the crusades, die killing a christian, go to heaven.
hold up a qu'ran in one hand and a sword in the other and make a crusader choose.


In the crusades, the soldiers who took part in them happen to be (Christian). Islam teaches that if YOU are attacked, you must fight back until they no longer oppress you. The christian crusaders invaded the the Arab world and slaughtered thousands among thousands of local Arabs (who were Muslims) in Palestine. The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never taught Muslims to kill Christians and Jews, but to fight the ones who attack you, along with Kafr who attack you. Islam teaches to be courteous to Christians and Jews, for many of them will abide in Paradise.

it's a good thing for everybody that christians and muslims both have "changed" much in the past several hundred years. it saves much bloodshed.


Many of the changes in Christianity are obvious to Muslims... Christianity, is a very distorted religion today because of the first 200 years after the time of Jesus Christ. Today Christians believe Jesus was God, that God is in three parts, and many other aspects that did not exist in the original message of Jesus.

actually...in reality, islam has "changed" every bit as much as christianity has "changed". but islamic people will never ever admit it. why not? i dunno. it's not like it's a bad thing to "change". hey, you know why i put quotation marks around the word "change"? because i'm using that word like others have. but see, in my humble and maybe wrong opinion, change is the absolutley wrong word. religions don't change. they ADAPT. they are made up of sentient beings who grow and evolve, therefore the religions themselves grow and evolve.
everything in an acorn is in an oak tree, everything in an oak tree is in an acorn, but does and acorn look like an oak tree at first glance? (i know i've used that analogy before, but it's such a good one.)


How do you define "change"? The Qur'aan in original Arabic (translations may be a little different) is exactly the same as it was at the time of the Prophet's passing. Why? Because the first few hundred Muslims (the ones who all fled from Mecca to Medina to escape the Pagan Meccans) all memorized the Qur'aan by heart. The first few Caliphs of Islam, like Abu Bakr also memorized the Qur'aan and the Islamic khalifah would punish any scholars who attempted to change the readings of Muhammad because it was outright blasphemy.

Unfortunately, Jesus Christ was not able to get a mass following at first, and thus a large nation ran under God's Law was never established and this resulted, in the first 160-200 years after Christ, a very distorted religion of God.

You should also know that much of the western world has a negative view of Islam because it is not liberal enough/too conservative (the clash of cultures).


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Edited by Zahid (07/22/02 02:47 PM)

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