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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28
    #758001 - 07/19/02 03:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758045 - 07/19/02 04:39 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

your young men will see visions.
Aye.

I see visions soberly during sexual experiences, and once in awhile during meditation. Most frequently on mushrooms.

your old men will dream dreams
I think most of em disregard these as 'illogical' or 'scientifically unverifyable', and so they forget.
Sorry don't want to discriminate against all old men but most of them just seem too wrapped up in their own belief / disbelief systems to wake up and give any weight to their dreams.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Edited by Adamist (07/19/02 04:41 AM)


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758088 - 07/19/02 05:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

your young men will see visions.

Yup. Between the ages of 14 & 20 and long before I had been introduced to ANY drug. Profound numinous experience - I do believe I was preconditioned by my upbringing though. Not that that is a bad thing - I am grateful for it as it provided a rich base for my future development.

I often wondered to myself about that scripture but never told a soul about my experiences ...


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: the_Landotter]
    #758127 - 07/19/02 06:02 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineMycelium
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758242 - 07/19/02 07:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You can not trust "visions" you see while under the influence of mind altering substances. If you attempt to act upon these visions while under the influence they will only lead you in the wrong path.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Mycelium]
    #758250 - 07/19/02 07:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineMycelium
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758342 - 07/19/02 08:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly. No one will know until we all pass away from this place....


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Mycelium]
    #758464 - 07/19/02 08:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #758839 - 07/19/02 11:35 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Don't kid yourself. It's only 'we believe'.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Sclorch]
    #758908 - 07/19/02 12:10 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #759053 - 07/19/02 01:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My current perspective....
I like that. Yeah, it implies a sort of ignorance that I must have in order to not blindly cling to ideals born in misinterpretation.


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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #759247 - 07/19/02 02:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The revelations/visions (not to be confused with visuals) I get nearly every time I trip are always kept to myself. I don't even utter it to other Muslims, let alone my godless friends. Every psychedelic experience for me has one focus: Becoming one at peace with the Creator. The higher the dose I take, strangely enough, the more obvious the presence of God is in the experience.. in fact.. while all my trips are introverted, the presence of God in my high dose experiences is very, very external from me and the experience I'm going through as a result of taking a psychedelic drug. This is why I consider it a revelation... the external presence of God in high doses of psychedelics..


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #759401 - 07/19/02 03:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: World Spirit]
    #760826 - 07/20/02 04:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i once had an experience like that in full blown effect but it was only after i had finished my love-wine spell and tried it... it caused a vision of my incarnate self hundreds of years ago, i was wearing red leather armor and had a big red beard.. since then ive had one other time like that and that was on lughnasadh last year at afield in the middle of no where..


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Well i had my beer last night with you, but you pushed me too far and now were through. You run out to the car and you think you're so cute, youre the kinda bitch they aughta shoot!


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: salvo]
    #760850 - 07/20/02 05:11 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #761396 - 07/20/02 09:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In the 70's I lived in the foreign student dorm at college 'cause it was more interesting and universal. I gave acid to my Turkish next-door neighbors. Salim was an extravert and I saw him riding on the back hood of someone's Cadillac on campus. He was just extraverting the experience and acting 'out.' Adnan was a classic introvert, who sat alone on his bed against the wall and communed with God for hours. He said it was as though a Light was poised above his head. I asked him if the Light ever descended to his head or into his heart. "No" was his response.

The constructivist schools of mysticism insist that there is no such thing as a pure consciousness experience (PCE) - an experience that has not been flavored to some extent by the data that we have in place when the mystical experience occurs. Since Islam does not recognize an Incarnational theology, except among certain Sufis perhaps (I have seen evidence in the Chisti Order, say Pir Vilayat), the utterly transcendent God remains aloof from the human psyche [soul]. It has always struck me how Aristotelian a notion this was - the 'Unmoved Mover,' the God of Aristotle (who tremendously influenced the Arabic world in general). But I digress.

It seems as if your experience of God, external to your psyche, resonates with the notion of the utterly transcendent Deity in Islam. Paradoxically, Muslims do say such things as Allah is 'closer to one than one's jugular vein.' But, whereas the spiritual Agent in Christianity is a Personality, the Agent in Islam is a Book - external to the physical body. The soul in Christianity can hear the Word of God, which is the Spirit 'in letter,' but it can also be 'filled' with that 'aspect' of God called the Holy Spirit. This is an 'interpenetration' of Divine or 'Uncreated Energy' [Eastern Orthodox Christianity] with the human spirit, that doesn't quite have a parallel in mainstream Islam. One hears the Word of God, and acts in 'submission' to the will of God. The transfiguration, or theosis of the human spirit into the Spirit of God is the goal of [Eastern] Christianity ("God became man so that man could become God" - Iraeneus), but this is 'shirk' in Islam. Regardless of one's faith however, God is still considered to be omnipresent and this means that His Presence occupies the physical, psychic and spiritual 'space' of each human. The wisdom in regarding God as 'Wholly Other,' is that one cannot inadvertantly come to worship some human psychical or spiritual reality AS God, and therby be guilty of shirk.

Do you see your theology as having shaped your entheogenic (Whoops. Sorry, I can't use this word with Muslims ), your psychedelic experience of the 'external God?' A Salaam Aleichem.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #762280 - 07/20/02 02:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting Mark but..

What I experienced was a reality of God...When I said external presence, I ment that as in, the experience was not some blind belief that formed in my mind, but my soul believing in the existence of a Creator. His presence was demanding submission, nonetheless.

According to Islamic tradition, God was never made into flesh on earth (Jesus was a Prophet, not the Son of God). Many Muslims believe the worshipping Jesus Christ is shirk, but others disagree because of some of the versus in the Holy Qur'aan.

When I use psychedelics, I focus entirely on Allah. When I do this, I feel His presence and the trip becomes overwhelmingly spiritual. Othertimes, I don't focus on Allah due to outside disturbances (friends being present, music, etc.) I've also found I can experience His presence the easiest outdoors, at night, alone. When the One true God, (the God you worship too, Mark) has a oneness presence in deep ego liberation, it is more than obvious it is the one true God.

Maybe you believe Allah is a false God, but, as I know from experience (just as you know God exists from your experience as a Christian) the God I worship is the true God, the same God who revealed the truth to Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc. There is a reason for multiple messengers, because the message gets changed over time, especially Christianity.. otherwise I would not experience the obvious miracles that occur every day that strengthen my belief. Islam has not changed at all since the time of the Prophet, since the very first Muslims, including Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam memorized the entire Qur'an. Islam, is the same religion of Ibrahim, Isa, Musa, Yusuf, Isma'il, etc. (Abraham, Jesus, Moses, Joseph, Ishmael).


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Edited by Zahid (07/20/02 02:57 PM)


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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Zahid]
    #762311 - 07/20/02 03:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Correct me if I am wrong... but doesn't Islam also teach that woman are inferior?
That one man's word is worth more than that of three woman?
That if a man simply suspects his wife of being unfaithful, he can kill her with no repercussions?
And woman must cover all their skin at all times when in public, and they may not go into public without a male member of the family?
A man in Iran can rape five woman, and if they come forward with it, they will be called liars and executed for having premarital sex.
And woman in islamic countries have basically no rights whatsoever.

I have nothing against Islam as a religion, except for their viewing of woman as inferior beings. I don't doubt for a second the validity of Allah as being the same omniscient God many religions may call different names. But I do question Islamic religion as to their morals when dealing with woman.

We are all human, no sex is better than another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: Sclorch]
    #762318 - 07/20/02 03:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Some of us Know.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Have you had a vision like that in Joel 2:28 [Re: ]
    #762332 - 07/20/02 03:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Islam doesn't oppress women (goto www.ummah.com, join the board and ask a female Muslim there... the board has alot of unbelievers there for interesting debate)

As you should know, there is not a single Muslim country that exists today that is ran under pure Shar'iah law (the law of the Land set by God) In otherwords, when you see a women veiled in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan (even though the veil is an Afghani cultural tradition) it is a law inforced fundamentalists/wahabi Muslim that has no place in Islamic Law. Under Islamic law, women are required to wear a very light scarf over their hair called a hijab. Men, in return are required to grow a beard. Islam teaches that men and women are equal, but it is the man's duty to protect the women and children alike, and that women may not participate in armed struggle if oppression occurs. Both men and women can divorce their spouse if they wish under Islamic law. Unlike in Christianity, Eve was not created because Adam was lonely.. Islam describes the union of man and women as "protectors of one another". Abusing women is strictly haraam in Islam, and is a horrible sin to commit. What Iran is doing, what the religious police in SA are doing, are not allowed under true Islamic law.


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Edited by Zahid (07/20/02 03:29 PM)


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