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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Alleviation Of Suffering
#7579834 - 10/31/07 08:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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When my grandmother died from cancer, she was dosed with sufficient amounts of pain medication as she went through the physical process of dying so that she was not suffering. A comment I heard from several individuals was "at least she didn't suffer".
Those who have the means of realizing an expanded sense of the nature of reality, especially regarding the inevitabilty and immediacy of their own death, alleviate the suffering experience that they once unknowingly inflicted upon themselves by simply realizing reality and accepting its nature. Cleary, this is a little more rare than commonplace in human civilization, as most individuals I've personally observed in day-to-day life seem to be attached to a concrete sense of identity, victims of their limited, insulated experience of life.
Reality is a mystery. Being aware in this present moment - not simply just having a present experience, but being conscious of this experience, of consciousness itself, and the fundamental mystery that envelopes this experience.... its offsetting. We typically become so conditioned through the act of living and by way of associating with our environment that we don't even realize the unprecedented, striking reality of being alive and aware in the present.
Anyways, it isn't a surprise that most individuals seem to never really transcend their associations with the tiny fragment of reality that we feel is known, especially as we usually have instinctual addictions to security. There is usually a threshold that resists passage, dissolution of obstructive elements of one's thought processes and mental sense of identity.
Adherents of religion (which would seemingly constitute most of humanity) typically hold beliefs that assume truly unknowable aspects of reality, specifically regarding our inevitable death, as known. Instead of embracing the unknown and dissolving themselves within the unmitigated light of reality, they face the most glaring unknown regarding our life (or perhaps, that which we know but never wish to face) by modifying their model of reality to gloss it over. By knowing it, they simply add one more piece to the puzzle that is their identity, instead of transcending the illusory puzzle and living transparently.
In stating this, I am simply making an observation; this isn't judgement rooted in superiority. The simple fact is that, whether we come to terms with our death or not, whether or not we find a path of awareness and a state of being in awe that we are experiencing reality in this moment, we will die, and, seemingly, we will never really know the true nature of all of this.
Now, at the very least, isn't it more preferential that human beings do not suffer, in life, and in death? Even if the means of alleviation of suffering do not lie in accordance with the nature of reality, for those who simply aren't going to live a life wherein they come to terms with and accept the nature of reality, isn't it better for them to not suffer?
On another note relating to suffering, one of the harder questions I've faced, I think while having an experience on acid, was whether or not I would suffer if it meant that others would not. Of course, reality seldom unfolds to a point where we would be in such a position to make that choice. Or does it?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
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I don't think that one's own suffering can ever alleviate the suffering of others, or at least I haven't seen evidence for it. Human beings are so much more deeply empathic than we realize most of the time, that if one is suffering for the benefit of others one is really just amplifying the collective suffering. The way to help others end their suffering is by ending your own, which I am beginning to suspect is actually possible! It's done by allowing - through psychedelics, meditation, yoga, inner body awareness - the vast, empty space of consciousness to be the primary focus of awareness, rather than allowing awareness to be sucked in by the constrictive force of the egoic mind.
I've had experiences where all of my 'suffering' (physical pain, emotions and thought-forms) still existed, but they were just like peripheral blips of energy, worthy of a good chuckle and nothing more, on the periphery of a deep ocean. And I think it's possible by developing good practice to remain in such a state.
Very insightful thread, FWG. Thanks.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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What an awesome post. I agree with you on all points.
As to your last question I do not think that will be answered by speculation. But I will speculate and guess it would be a matter of degree. They say that anyone and everyone can be broken at some point.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Alleviation Of Suffering [Re: Lion]
#7579968 - 10/31/07 09:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: I don't think that one's own suffering can ever alleviate the suffering of others, or at least I haven't seen evidence for it.
I agree; this is my conclusion as well. The question has more of a basis in the realm of a thought experiment, I think, than through the way of a practical application within reality. Perhaps it is possible in an indirect way, however, through the nature of competition, for example, for resources...
Perhaps a much more effective model for benefiting others in regards to suffering than Jesus would be that of the Bodhisattva. 
Quote:
The way to help others end their suffering is by ending your own, which I am beginning to suspect is actually possible! It's done by allowing - through psychedelics, meditation, yoga, inner body awareness - the vast, empty space of consciousness to be the primary focus of awareness, rather than allowing awareness to be sucked in by the constrictive force of the egoic mind.
I think it is possible, as well.
Quote:
I've had experiences where all of my 'suffering' (physical pain, emotions and thought-forms) still existed, but they were just like peripheral blips of energy, worthy of a good chuckle and nothing more, on the periphery of a deep ocean.
Choices of attention.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fake estate
didgin it out


Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 264
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how can one feel joy without suffering..its all just perspective
-------------------- eat more algae.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Alleviation Of Suffering [Re: fake estate]
#7585455 - 11/01/07 08:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Pleasure and pain may be opposites on a continuum, but Joy is Being impinging upon the mind. Joy dwells throughout pleasure and pain inasmuch as Being underlies all opposites.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Those who have the means of realizing an expanded sense of the nature of reality, especially regarding the inevitability and immediacy of their own death, alleviate the suffering experience that they once unknowingly inflicted upon themselves by simply realizing reality and accepting its nature.
Indeed. Neurosis is the most toxic substance known to man, and most of us (if not all of us) willingly ingest it daily.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Alleviation Of Suffering [Re: fake estate]
#7590334 - 11/03/07 07:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fake estate said: how can one feel joy without suffering..
By doing so?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Booby
Agent Mulder

Registered: 09/14/05
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He's reffering to the basic principle of science I think; 'Every Action Has An Equal And Opposite Reaction'. I guess he believes it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Alleviation Of Suffering [Re: Booby]
#7590527 - 11/03/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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joy is just vibration sufferring is too much vibration, sufferring makes a mess, something that could vibrate nicely is thwarted by suffering (i.e. the noisy mess - too much where a balance could be achieved)
so to lessen suffering, you need to loosen up some bonds, and clean up some mess, and temper and order the vibrations so they work better with what is around and what is changing...
it is about appreciating suitability and letting go of unsuitable connections (habits that once were very suitable become the source of suffering after changes)
anyway if you understand that we (living beings) really are learning machines, - we are students at the very core, then you can plan for it, and allow for it, and lessen the suffering from the upcoming exams, and the pop tests and pranks from the others (worrying about lunch, family, getting to your next thing, getting some rest etc.)
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fake estate
didgin it out



Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 264
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no im saying you need both for either to exist...if there was only joy to be felt..you would become so numb to the feeling that there would be no quality to it..if you could feel joy sometimes and nothing others i suppose the nothingness would feel horrible compared to the joy...but we are able to feel it all along the spectrum
-------------------- eat more algae.
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